Looking for mid-high end motor options ~12kw peak?

sn0wchyld

sn0wchyld

100 kW
Joined
Mar 18, 2011
Messages
1,868
Location
South Aus.
I know ive seen a few around the forums but for the life of me i cant find them anymore, and im sure there's others out there that i stil dont know about so,

I'm looking for a motor for my custom frame build... already looked at https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=68950 too but looking for slightly different things:

~5kw cont / ~10+kw peak
dia no more than about 180mm, <160 ideally
depth no more than about 120mm mounted, ignoring axle (ie motor body and plate its mounted too ideally less than 120mm, sprocket can be in adition to this width)
an inrunner would be preferable for ease of mounting, but either can work
weight - less critical need but less than 6kg would be nice
<$1k
works with the adaptto controllers would be a good bonus (so slower/higher inductance motors preferable)

Edit
+preferably still be able to use regen (ie most rc motors wont fit the bill here)

Most of these are pretty flexible other than the diamiter


some ive considered

John in CR's 2 speed mini monster - already got one of these. main issue is weight to a small extent, and modifacations needed to a moderate extent. Not in production anymore though, and really would like to build more than 1 bike...

Jobys - still in production? realistically too expensive/hard to control too...

revolt 160s - not bad, possibly the one to beat, other than unproven and issues with flux leakage and running noise (coging torque, my rv100pro is the same, has a bit of a whine to it)
the flux leakage is a real pain as it reduces the motors potential somewhat, but also makes it effectively larger dai than it already is given it'll need clearance to conductive bodies.

Big block - again not bad, but bit low on power, both per kg and not quite up to 10kw i think :lol: .

NT power http://nt-power.eu/engine.html
again nice but out of the price range and kinda hard to control.

edit2
Miles found the thread on the transmagnetic motors. tick most the boxes other than a bit short on power by the looks, and unproven.

There's a couple of others that people have used here, if i can find the threads again ill add them to the list (thanks miles!) . Unfortunatly some of those are the ones probably best fitting the price range and power im looking for, but as mentioned i cant find em anymore! if anyone can offer more suggestions of motors of this kind of ilk it'd be great.
 
How many bikes do you want? By far the best motor available at the time, so of course I kept some for myself, but now I'm liking the 6 phase motors better for a number of reasons. With just an angle grinder and very little time I got one of my Mini's below 9kg and 130mm wide. More width reduction is straight forward, but your weight goal is problematic without both opening the wallet pretty wide and going to noisy rpm and/or giving up significant efficiency. It will also become harder to drive. There's just no getting around the physics until we have readily available superconductors. Without them the stators are heavy for a motor truly capable of 12kw without high rpm.

What you needed was for me to buy the 100 motors worth of MiniMonster parts at various stages of completion when the factory was selling the bulk lot off 2 years ago. Then you could have bought a kit to make exactly the motor you want. We both needed our current motor understanding 2 years ago. I would have snapped up the lot and made custom motors and sold off enough kits to pay for the entire lot.

End your analysis paralysis and put the great motor you have to good use. A couple kilos of extra mass at the pivot won't truly make a hill of beans difference until we have another 50%+ increase in battery energy density...or since you're willing to open the wallet for the Russian controller, get me have a custom modded Mini done for you.
 
sn0wchyld said:
There's a couple of others that people have used here, if i can find the threads again ill add them to the list. Unfortunatly some of those are the ones probably best fitting the price range and power im looking for, but as mentioned i cant find em anymore!
Click to expand...
Maybe you were thinking of this? https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=69928
 
Hillhater said:
Astro ?
Click to expand...
not a fan of using the RC controllers... though not dead against it. I guess i could be like recumpence and go for 2 in parallel hahah. really though they're a bit too noisy (atleast going from vids) and dont do things like regen, which i should have mentioned, as i want to back drive the motor not just use a freewheel. maybe for the next one...

John in CR said:
How many bikes do you want? By far the best motor available at the time, so of course I kept some for myself, but now I'm liking the 6 phase motors better for a number of reasons. With just an angle grinder and very little time I got one of my Mini's below 9kg and 130mm wide. More width reduction is straight forward, but your weight goal is problematic without both opening the wallet pretty wide and going to noisy rpm and/or giving up significant efficiency. It will also become harder to drive. There's just no getting around the physics until we have readily available superconductors. Without them the stators are heavy for a motor truly capable of 12kw without high rpm.

What you needed was for me to buy the 100 motors worth of MiniMonster parts at various stages of completion when the factory was selling the bulk lot off 2 years ago. Then you could have bought a kit to make exactly the motor you want. We both needed our current motor understanding 2 years ago. I would have snapped up the lot and made custom motors and sold off enough kits to pay for the entire lot.

End your analysis paralysis and put the great motor you have to good use. A couple kilos of extra mass at the pivot won't truly make a hill of beans difference until we have another 50%+ increase in battery energy density...or since you're willing to open the wallet for the Russian controller, get me have a custom modded Mini done for you.
Click to expand...


How many? all of them! heheh.
really though i want 2-3 good ones, it'd be nice to ride with mates when they're in town, and i'll probably always have at least 1 up on bricks, cant leave anything alone... totally agree on the buying extras part, having a core i could rewind would be brilliant.
And it aint paralysis hahah, ive changed the frame again to a lower COG. still needs some work but looking better than the last one. I thought the last one was but i couldn't realy get the seat to work - shock was in the way of it getting nice and low for trials type stuff.

Main concern with yours as stated is that there's no more, and that it requires some work, which i already have a lot of... just got a job recently so only got weekends now - more money than time for now - and the mini really needs a rewind to work best with 80v and 150A.

Ill bite though... what mini's are you talking about? the only ones i recall that you've been working with were kinda large vs what i have already - did i forget/miss a thread?

Miles said:
sn0wchyld said:
~5kw cont / ~10+kw peak
Click to expand...
At what rpm?
Click to expand...

< 7k if possible, ~5k ideal, though i get that may be a pipe dream. the 5kw really is more than i need too - its more a case that I dont want to think about overheating, realistically it'll take me atleast 30min to kill a 1kwh pack so its more like 2kw cont.


Miles said:
sn0wchyld said:
There's a couple of others that people have used here, if i can find the threads again ill add them to the list. Unfortunatly some of those are the ones probably best fitting the price range and power im looking for, but as mentioned i cant find em anymore!
Click to expand...
Maybe you were thinking of this? https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=69928
Click to expand...

yep that was the thread i was hunting for, cheers. last major manufacturer i know of that doesn't need major $$.

And just a note on justification for why i'd prefer an in runner - its going to be inside a custom frame (similar to first link in my sig) id like to seal the frame if possible both for strength and weatherproofing - a in runner can easily be heat-sunk to the frame which should help the cont. power rating considerably.
 
More on the Transmagnetics motors:

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=44058

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=50066
 
Looking forward to see what end result will be. Expecting big things
 
You're doing your own custom build and your DIY satisfaction will be greater by making the motor your own as well. The motor you want doesn't exist and would be cost prohibitive if it did. Your Mini with a rewind to get the most out of it with voltage under 100V would be heavier than your target, but that's because it would be more motor than required, which is a good thing. The extra couple of kg will be ideally located, so immaterial compared to battery pack weight.

I have an extra stator and a local motor/alternator rewind shop will do it economically, but my own analysis paralysis is to do it as simpler 3 phase or my now preferred 6 phase. eg If I have them do it 6 phase with same number of turns per tooth alternating teeth to each controller, then they should be able achieve the same copper fill (maybe better fill since they are more accustomed to winding with thicker magnet wire). That cleanly doubles Kv, and phase-to-phase resistance becomes just a touch over half (a touch more end turn wire prevents 50% Rm reduction, but is a heat xfer benefit with vented motors). 2 controllers in parallel makes the overall motor Rm 1/4th the original (double Kv = 1/4th Rm...chk, so below 15mΩ). Inductance that a controller sees is only cut in half, so the soft load of over 300µH of the original in high is still an easy load at over 150µH. Doubling Kv as a 3 phase (half the turns over same length and diameter is about 1/4th the inductance) would put it at the margins of being a difficult load , a sure way to pop an expensive controller run at advertised limits.

If I'm figuring right, doubling the Kv of the MiniMonster will put it still below 2A no-load with a freshly charged 20s pack at just under 3krpm. That's sure to push peak efficiency higher, and will put real world efficiency in the high 80's low 90's through most of the operating range.... incredible for a motor that with simple ventilation will laugh at 200A of battery juice, much less the 160A or so peak you want to draw. That's well worth a bit of effort and expense.

You were smart enough to nab one of those puppies for $285, so don't waste your time looking at thick lam motors spinning at even higher rpm (ie much lower efficiency and more noise) that can't really handle the power you want, since others insist on over-rating motors. Be smart and finally put that great little motor to work for you. I promise it will be worth the effort to adapt it to far better use than the factory designed use. That's why all the Monster motors have been such bargains...the factory spins them too slow pushing loads that are too heavy to take advantage of the high efficiency. They couldn't even figure out how to get a HubMonster running with a pair of Kelly's, so of course it never dawned on them how awesome they'd be pushing a smaller load whether through gear reduction as a mid-drive or on a 50kg ebike instead of a heavy pig scooter. Of course ESers aren't much better with the overwhelming majority still insisting on big diameter wheels for hubmotors, even after I lay out why going from a 26" wheel to a 20" reduces heat by about 50% while increasing performance and overall efficiency at the same time.
 
Plettenberg-Motoren.....
Made in Germany

15KW
30KW
150KW

http://plettenberg-motoren.net/index.php/en/motor-series-nova
 
so it seems as if joby are still making motors, though haven't got much info from them yet. their first reply was that the power ratings they have are based on significant prop wash (hence the open design) which is no surprise. Given (timmas?) succes with a joby, keeping pace with 250 and 450's it seems its still pretty damn powerfull, but realistically out of my price range.... for now :twisted: .

Also contacted transmagnetics, their 5" motor does look promising, but waiting to hear more details on it/cost.
 
just to add another one to the list:
http://www.motenergy.com/me0201013201.html
~10kg, 3kw nominal, only 100mm wide body, comes in a 72v version too apparently... might have been able to use it as a structural member too by the looks. too bad it doesn't appear to be in production anymore, might have been worth considering otherwise.
 
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