Mongoose Envoy Cargo BBSHD Jumbo Shark

[obnauticus]

I ended up taking it to a professional bike shop to remove in order to reduce the risk of cam'ing off the teeth on the BB. Apparently it was extremely stuck and they used basically no grease when installing the BB. So beware to anyone buying one of these -- they're torquing the sh*t out of the BB and not using any grease.

 

[Ernie]

Can anyone tell me where to get handlebars like the one used on the Mongoose Envoy?

First glance I thought they were a Jones H bar or a Origin8 Strongbow, but then I realized the mounting was such that you can tilt them up an down to change the rise/reach easily which looks perfect for my shopping bike.

I looked on the Mongoose website for the brand, and it said Xposure brand. When I googled that, I only got Mongoose related hits, so I presume it's their own brand.

 

[Hyak]

Maybe just get the Jones bars? Another idea...

When I first got this bike, I thought I would be riding slowly and that an upright position would be best. Even put some risers in the stem. Since then, it has become clear that the upright posture is costing me lots of battery. The included bars are comfortable and offer both a secondary hand position and lots of instrument space, but if I were to do it again or re-work this bike, I'd lower the stem and put drop bars on. Seems I'm always going over 18mph or so and the range increase from a lower position is significant. To increase range I have been spending more time with hands on the front rail tucked lower. Have wrapped them with tape and considered moving the throttle to the center as well.

 

[Ernie]

Maybe just get the Jones bars? Another idea...

When I first got this bike, I thought I would be riding slowly and that an upright position would be best. Even put some risers in the stem. Since then, it has become clear that the upright posture is costing me lots of battery. The included bars are comfortable and offer both a secondary hand position and lots of instrument space, but if I were to do it again or re-work this bike, I'd lower the stem and put drop bars on. Seems I'm always going over 18mph or so and the range increase from a lower position is significant. To increase range I have been spending more time with hands on the front rail tucked lower. Have wrapped them with tape and considered moving the throttle to the center as well.

Drop bars on a cargo bike, never seen that before.
Most of your battery burn will be trying to go fast up hills, nothing that aero is going to fix. Go a few mph slower and you will save a heap of battery. If you want to know how much try this simulator. https://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html

 

[MaxxGabriel]

Great writeup.
I built mine with a bbshd, 42t lekkie chainring, 52v 17ah battery, eggrider controller. Upgraded hydraulic brakes, foam grips, suspension seatpost, and brown Fat Frank tires. Overall its a great bike once the crappy stock parts are taken off. 37mph top speed unloaded, handles decently and feels solid and stable even with a heavy load.

I am having a problem though and am wondering if anyone else has had the same issue or knows how to fix it. I get massive chain vibration at a few very specific speeds. 23mph & 17 mph. Its worse in the smaller gears. And if I am accelerating through the speed where it vibrates, I will still get the vibration for a second.

Also, does anyone know of a good rear wheel replacement? I want something with a few more points of engagement, 18 is not enough. 141mm 26" wheels are really rare.

 

[Balmorhea]

Also, does anyone know of a good rear wheel replacement? I want something with a few more points of engagement, 18 is not enough. 141mm 26" wheels are really rare.

Why?

I'm not saying you have a good wheel or that you shouldn't swap out for something better, but what exactly do you think is better about more points of engagement in the ratchet?

You do know that torque is carried primarily or entirely by a single ratchet pawl at any given time, right? Noisy ratchets with lots of teeth are the freewheel version of N+1 gear cassettes-- they're for selling to doofuses who don't understand anything more complicated than "more = better". It's a reliable market, I'll admit.

Any 135mm hub with a normal threaded axle can be respaced to 141mm. You might need a spacer for the disc rotor also, to bring it out to the correct spacing from the dropout face. Easiest is to add 2.5mm to each side of the axle; best is to add 5mm to the left side, and adjust the wheel dish back to center.

 

[MaxxGabriel]

Also, does anyone know of a good rear wheel replacement? I want something with a few more points of engagement, 18 is not enough. 141mm 26" wheels are really rare.

Why?

I'm not saying you have a good wheel or that you shouldn't swap out for something better, but what exactly do you think is better about more points of engagement in the ratchet?

You do know that torque is carried primarily or entirely by a single ratchet pawl at any given time, right? Noisy ratchets with lots of teeth are the freewheel version of N+1 gear cassettes-- they're for selling to doofuses who don't understand anything more complicated than "more = better". It's a reliable market, I'll admit.

Any 135mm hub with a normal threaded axle can be respaced to 141mm. You might need a spacer for the disc rotor also, to bring it out to the correct spacing from the dropout face. Easiest is to add 2.5mm to each side of the axle; best is to add 5mm to the left side, and adjust the wheel dish back to center.

When I hit the throttle from a standing start the engagement is so slow (18poe) that the cassette makes a loud clunking sound when it does engage if I dont go super soft and gentle with the throttle. Doesn't seem to be a real problem, I just dont like the noise it makes. Only really happens when using the throttle, I can't pedal fast enough for it to be an issue even with pas.

The wheels themselves are low quality, on an extremely heavy bike, that carries heavy loads on horrible broken roads at 20+ mph. They do not inspire confidence. And they would look better as a shiny black instead of matte
I would prefer to just get the proper size rather than using spacers if possible.

 

[Balmorhea]

That sounds like a programming problem, not a freewheel problem.

135mm hubs have been standard issue since the 1980s; 142mm not even today. If you want to eliminate most of your options right off the bat, go for it.

48 spoke wheels have always been specialty items, but they'll serve you better than hubs that came originally with nonstandard spacing, or noisy faddish freehubs. If you want to go scavenger hunting, I'd start there.

 

[Hyak]

Maxxgabriel, I get the same thing. Sometimes late engagement. Sometimes a vibrating sound. They are difficult to reproduce and only happen when riding, so I've had trouble pinpointing, but here's what I think is happening.

On the late engagement, I think it's a clutch in the BBSHD that engages late. Maybe someone who knows the motor better can say if it even has one. But yes, once in a while when starting you get a good 30 degrees of crank rotation before a clunk and engagement. The wheels are crap so will address that when they need replacement which is right now : (

On the vibration, I'm clueless. It seems to happen under moderate load. Not heavy load. Definitely from the motor. I've also had it happen while stopped or pushing. Perhaps intermittent wiring or a controller issue?

Since last writing, another who was riding the bike managed to get it into a head-on with another bike. Taco front wheel. Bent fork and rotor. The aluminum fork really bent up. I was thinking about replacing it with steel, then figured the $40 sacrificial fork replacement was better than the whole frame the next time that happens. Pacific Cycle support was great once I got to a rep. Getting thru took a week of persistent phone calls. Email didn't work.

 

[Balmorhea]

Taco front wheel. Bent fork and rotor. The aluminum fork really bent up. I was thinking about replacing it with steel, then figured the $40 sacrificial fork replacement was better than the whole frame the next time that happens.

Were the headset bores still tight/round? If the bottom cup slips out easily, it's not necessarily the end of the road, but it does indicate frame damage.

 

[MaxxGabriel]

Good to know I am not the only one!

I think the vibration is due to a combination of the awkward chainline, low end cassette, and overly long chain all acting together. I took a link out of the chain and it changed the speeds it vibrates at and lessened the intensity a little. Might try taking out another when I feel like getting greasy again.

You could be right about the late engagement, I haven't used enough bafangs to know but your guess sounds very plausible. I guess I will find out when I replace the rear wheel if its the motor or hub.

Let me know what front wheel you end up getting. I have found a few that are in the 25-30mm id range, not nearly as tough as the rear to find. For the rear I have settled on just building one from scratch.

Maxxgabriel, I get the same thing. Sometimes late engagement. Sometimes a vibrating sound. They are difficult to reproduce and only happen when riding, so I've had trouble pinpointing, but here's what I think is happening.

On the late engagement, I think it's a clutch in the BBSHD that engages late. Maybe someone who knows the motor better can say if it even has one. But yes, once in a while when starting you get a good 30 degrees of crank rotation before a clunk and engagement. The wheels are crap so will address that when they need replacement which is right now : (

On the vibration, I'm clueless. It seems to happen under moderate load. Not heavy load. Definitely from the motor. I've also had it happen while stopped or pushing. Perhaps intermittent wiring or a controller issue?

Since last writing, another who was riding the bike managed to get it into a head-on with another bike. Taco front wheel. Bent fork and rotor. The aluminum fork really bent up. I was thinking about replacing it with steel, then figured the $40 sacrificial fork replacement was better than the whole frame the next time that happens. Pacific Cycle support was great once I got to a rep. Getting thru took a week of persistent phone calls. Email didn't work.

 

[MaxxGabriel]

135mm hubs have been standard issue since the 1980s; 142mm not even today. If you want to eliminate most of your options right off the bat, go for it.

To get 141mm (the rear width on the Envoy) you take a 148mm ta hub and replace the endcaps with qr endcaps. There are a bunch of options available, just very few that are prebuilt in 26" size. Having to build your own wheel (or paying someone to do it) is not the end of the world.

 

[Balmorhea]

To get 141mm (the rear width on the Envoy) you take a 148mm ta hub and replace the endcaps with qr endcaps. There are a bunch of options available, just very few that are prebuilt in 26" size. Having to build your own wheel (or paying someone to do it) is not the end of the world.

Likewise, it's no big deal to respace an axle stack-- I do it all the time to reconcile road vs mtn, old vs new.

But cost effective hubs for QR are plentiful in 135mm, not so much in wider spacing.

 

[stanmiller]

Also, does anyone know of a good rear wheel replacement? I want something with a few more points of engagement, 18 is not enough. 141mm 26" wheels are really rare.

I rebuilt the front and rear wheels with Sun Ringle Rhyno Lite XL Rims (36h) and Sapim Strong 14g (2mm) spokes. Also swapped out the tires for Maxxis 2.4 Holy Rollers. Since then the bike is super stable and this eliminated the wobble of the front wheel when riding no handed.

I used a Shimano XT HB-M756 100m hub for the front wheel build and 252mm / 254mm spokes. (Ideally the long side should've been 253mm, but that length costs .40 extra per spoke. Thought I was going to run out of thread tightening...)

Earlier, I had swapped the stablizer spring with a Velo Orange and that helped some, but there still was some nagging (though significantly less) wobble no-handed.

The Envoy is a heavy bike - in particular if you are using it as one should - to carry provisions and supplies. Soon I'll cross 3000 miles ridden. I have a 500W SWX02 Bafang rear-hub motor. And it had been getting loud. I pulled the motor cores from the Envoy and my Electra Townie (also using an SWX02) and saw that the gears of the Envoy were more rounded. I swapped cores and the Envoy was quiet again. Next is to replace the motor gear/clutch in the noisy motor.

1. Sun Ringle Rhyno Lite XL Rim 26"
https://www.treefortbikes.com/Sun-Ringle-Rhyno-Lite-XL-Rim-26

2. Maxxis Holy Roller 26" Tire
https://www.treefortbikes.com/Maxxis-Holy-Roller-Tire-26-x-24

3. Velo Orange Wheel Stabilizer for Large Downtubes: 38-62mm
https://www.treefortbikes.com/Velo-Orange-Wheel-Stabilizer-for-Large-Downtubes-38-62mm

4. Sapim Strong Single Butted Spoke
https://wheelbuilder.com/sapim-strong-single-butted-spoke/

.

 

[Hyak]

Same here. In the midst of a wheel build. Got the front done because that was the taco. Sun MTX33 rims with DT 2mm spokes and a DT Swiss 350 hub. Yes, the rear is a bit tricky. Planning on a DT Swiss 350 boost 148mm rear plus QR caps to take it down to 141mm QR. The Koozer BM440 might also work for less $$$.

 

[MaxxGabriel]

Same here. In the midst of a wheel build. Got the front done because that was the taco. Sun MTX33 rims with DT 2mm spokes and a DT Swiss 350 hub. Yes, the rear is a bit tricky. Planning on a DT Swiss 350 boost 148mm rear plus QR caps to take it down to 141mm QR. The Koozer BM440 might also work for less $$$.

Capture.JPG

I was just looking at the koozer hubs last night. Using them over dt swiss would save a ton of money. They seem to have relatively good reviews too.

 

[Hyak]

My list in order of preference is the DT Swiss Hybrid, Spank Hex and Hope Pro 4. SRAM 900 looks ok but can't confirm that the end caps are available. Last option is the Koozer which is cheap enough to buy 2 and swap out if there is a problem, but do I really want to do all that for $100? It all hinges on availability. Nothing is in stock right now anywhere. The current wheel works, so will update this when I can find something and get to lacing it up.

 

[markz]

Then, the $750 Mongoose Envoy became available in the US.

Can you measure from the front dropout axle to the back dropout axle. I've been eyeing the Mongoose Envoy from Costco Canada website because its
A) $500cdn
B) Tires are 26 in. x 2.4 inches so probably fit 2.6's easy enough.
C) 3x8 gears
D) mechanical disc 160 mm rotor rear, 180 mm front

But what I am concerned about is that it maybe longer then the Townie Electra's wheelbase which might not fit in the bus racks here. It looks much longer then the Electra. Costco has a good return policy, but I will have to purchase online and I doubt the store itself would accept it.

A BBSHD is the right choice, I myself have the Cyclone. I got my eye on another bike, a $800 Surface 604 cruiser 4" fat, electrics taken off so its complete non ebike. Mongoose is priced right.

 

[E-HP]

Costco has a good return policy, but I will have to purchase online and I doubt the store itself would accept it.

Costco accepts online order returns at their warehouses:

https://customerservice.costco.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/6874/~/return-your-costco.com-online-order

 

[Hyak]

Axle to axle is 51". Even if you spin the fork around it is unlikely to fit on a bus rack. Some of the 20" cargo bikes will.

 

[Hyak]

The BBSHD has a 24 tooth clutch. 360degrees/24teeth=15degrees/click. I believe the Exposure hub that comes with the bike is also 24tooth. The slop stacks up randomly between the two, so best case is immediate engagement and worst case is 30 degrees which is just what I estimated that it did once in a while randomly. Motor starts to spin and <CLUNK>, it misses both the motor clutch and the hub clutch just by chance. Can't improve the motor clutch. Any money thrown at the rear hub is only half as effective as it would ordinarily be in a standard bike.

Looks like the best value for high engagement is the Spank Hex. It has 102 clicks for 3.5 degrees per click. That would get the worst case down to 18.5 degrees from 30 degrees for $200 plus $40 endcaps. The Koozer XM490 has 24 teeth which is not an improvement but if you just needed to replace a hub it comes in a 141QR configuration for $90.

 

[MaxxGabriel]

The BBSHD has a 24 tooth clutch. 360degrees/24teeth=15degrees/click. I believe the Exposure hub that comes with the bike is also 24tooth. The slop stacks up randomly between the two, so best case is immediate engagement and worst case is 30 degrees which is just what I estimated that it did once in a while randomly. Motor starts to spin and <CLUNK>, it misses both the motor clutch and the hub clutch just by chance. Can't improve the motor clutch. Any money thrown at the rear hub is only half as effective as it would ordinarily be in a standard bike.

Looks like the best value for high engagement is the Spank Hex. It has 102 clicks for 3.5 degrees per click. That would get the worst case down to 18.5 degrees from 30 degrees for $200 plus $40 endcaps. The Koozer XM490 has 24 teeth which is not an improvement but if you just needed to replace a hub it comes in a 141QR configuration for $90.

Thats good info. It seems like a better hub is the right way to go then, but really needs a high engagement hub to make a difference.

I believe the exposure hub is 18 clicks, or at least mine is. They might have installed different ones throughout the production run.
The koozer are 72 clicks.

 

[Balmorhea]

Hokey unproven freehubs aren't the way to go, even if they have n+1 clicks. This is one of the places where you should trust industry standards and long-lived designs over new hotness. Shimano cassette freehubs with 10mm axles haven't prevailed since the early 1980s by being half-baked.

 

[MoneyPit]

Stumbled across this old thread via a Google search on the Envoy. I put a BBSHD on one in 2019... Actually I pretty much just bought the bike for its frame and fork and replaced everything. A proper, capable full on e-cargo bike with a kickass motor is usually well past $4k+ range and I wanted to build something in steps to be gentler on the wallet.

As new products go vs. finding a gem used. I think the Envoy is maybe the best choice as a budget donor you can buy. No need to go apeshit like I did. The bike comes with some pretty decent sized bags to start with. The wheels are pretty strong on their own. I have one of the first USA models and those hubs are solid. I never screwed them up, although I did do custom wheels. I used MTX39s for rims, the DT 350 Hybrid on the back and a Shimano Deore on the front. DT Alpines+brass nipples for spokes. The bike has handled 400+ lb loads no problem, and the wider MTX39's let me put on 2.8" tires which make the ride pillow-soft and up the load capacity of the bike.

The 24T ratchet mech on the 350 Hybrid is not noticeably quicker to engage than the stock 18T, but its solid, and stronger than the 36T you can upgrade to. I do have 36T ratchets on some other builds using that hub and they are nice, and work fine behind my 30a BBSHDs - so far.

Thats a skateboard deck on the back. Extra long means I can throw more stuff up there. The Envoy has all those M5 bosses built in so I put them to use. The risers underneath give me just enough room to use hooks to attach a net without any bother fitting them on.

Also you can fit a front rack on with a little fiddling. Reinforced the wideloaders at 4 points on each side. They are only held on with 4 bolts from factory. Rear rack was tested by Mongoose to carry 90 lbs. Its more now but not sure how much. More than I am willing to try and carry I think.

Made 77L (each) panniers for it. Used cheap but sturdy Rothco parachute bags and they came out almost as big - and just as capable - as the 80L Yuba go-getter bags but a fraction of the cost. Here's a link to how I did it, but if you want to do your own, look for the Bags 2.0 link on this page and see the dowel-and-loop attachment method I did there. Light years better than the hooks I used originally.

https://talesontwowheels.com/2019/11/30/diy-low-cost-high-volume-cargo-bike-bags/

There's a series of posts on the various bits of the Envoy build there, too.

 

[phj]

Stumbled across this old thread via a Google search on the Envoy. I put a BBSHD on one in 2019... Actually I pretty much just bought the bike for its frame and fork and replaced everything. A proper, capable full on e-cargo bike with a kickass motor is usually well past $4k+ range and I wanted to build something in steps to be gentler on the wallet.

As new products go vs. finding a gem used. I think the Envoy is maybe the best choice as a budget donor you can buy. No need to go apeshit like I did. The bike comes with some pretty decent sized bags to start with. The wheels are pretty strong on their own. I have one of the first USA models and those hubs are solid. I never screwed them up, although I did do custom wheels. I used MTX39s for rims, the DT 350 Hybrid on the back and a Shimano Deore on the front. DT Alpines+brass nipples for spokes. The bike has handled 400+ lb loads no problem, and the wider MTX39's let me put on 2.8" tires which make the ride pillow-soft and up the load capacity of the bike.

The 24T ratchet mech on the 350 Hybrid is not noticeably quicker to engage than the stock 18T, but its solid, and stronger than the 36T you can upgrade to. I do have 36T ratchets on some other builds using that hub and they are nice, and work fine behind my 30a BBSHDs - so far.

Thats a skateboard deck on the back. Extra long means I can throw more stuff up there. The Envoy has all those M5 bosses built in so I put them to use. The risers underneath give me just enough room to use hooks to attach a net without any bother fitting them on.

Also you can fit a front rack on with a little fiddling. Reinforced the wideloaders at 4 points on each side. They are only held on with 4 bolts from factory. Rear rack was tested by Mongoose to carry 90 lbs. Its more now but not sure how much. More than I am willing to try and carry I think.

Made 77L (each) panniers for it. Used cheap but sturdy Rothco parachute bags and they came out almost as big - and just as capable - as the 80L Yuba go-getter bags but a fraction of the cost. Here's a link to how I did it, but if you want to do your own, look for the Bags 2.0 link on this page and see the dowel-and-loop attachment method I did there. Light years better than the hooks I used originally.

Big And Cheap: DIY Cargo Bike Bags

There is another post that shows later improvements to these bags. Here is another one that covers a hole I left in this article below. Great Big Bags 2.0 uses a better attachment method. I h…

talesontwowheels.com

There's a series of posts on the various bits of the Envoy build there, too.

Thanks for blogging all the shit you do on Tales On Two Wheels. I've been using your Mongoose build as a reference when building mine out, although I had purchased a rear hub drive prior to discovering the Mongoose a couple months back.

I'm still not finished with the damn thing, it's 100% a "MoneyPit". However, that being said I'm wrapping up as much as I can in the next 4 days prior to heading out on a 10 day 400+ mile ride. So there's a lot of things that'll be changing from what it looks like here, to what it'll look like 4 days from now. (After these pics were taken, the Jones H Bar, Thudbuster LT, and a number of other items have already been added.)