Need ebike recommendations for mountain logging road use

[Tom]

Hi guys, great forum. I'm looking to get an ebike to cut off mileage on logging road approaches to backpacking trips here in the Pacific Northwest (many of the logging roads around here have been washed out or gated). I'd rather bike than walk 5-10 miles of logging road each way but the steeper sections really take a toll and I'm wondering if an ebike might be the answer? I've ruled a motorbike out as they would not be legal on gated roads and would also not fit in the back of my SUV. The idea is to drive as far as I can in my SUV and use the bike for the remaining logging road approach.

I'm 175 pounds and would be carrying a 25 pound backpack. I'm in my early 40s and in decent shape and don't mind pedaling - I just don't want my legs to be DOA when I start hiking. Typical bike approach would be 7 miles with 2750' of elevation gain. 3 of those miles might be relatively flat, gaining only 250'. The other 4 miles would gain 2500'. If I did the math right, that would be a 15% grade for the latter 4 milies. The return would be downhill most of the way, so I'm not too worried about that. Edit: Budget would be ~$1500.

Here's a couple of options I'm considering right now with the caveat that I haven't had much time to do a lot of research.

1) Pre-built e-bike with NIMH bateries such as the Giant Lite - I am told this bike has been discontinued but a dealer in town says he can get me one. I have also seen a few online. Cost is $1300. Not sure how much effort it would require on the uphill though or if the battery has adequate capacity for what I plan to do. I suspect it would be a lot easier to pedal than heavier bikes should the batteries run out, particularly on flat sections on the return. A lighter bike would also help save the brakes which might get pretty hot on the downhill.

2) Build my own ala http://ebikeproject.com at similar cost. Advantages would be a much more powerful motor (I think) and more powerful batteries. My biggest concern, however would be the use of SLA batteries which apparently need to be charged immediately after use. I would be dumping the bike in the bushes and then backpacking for several days before coming home to recharge the batteries. So not being able to re-charge immediately after some heavy usage might kill the longevity of the batteries. I suppose I could also go with NIMH or lithium batteries, but the cost seems prohibitive.

Thoughts? Suggestions? Recommendations? Thanks!

 

[Ypedal]

http://www.greenspeed.us/machine-x_zvo-bike.htm

I've wanted to try one of these for a Long Long time... I don't know of anyone that owns one tho.

A BMX with a rear wheel hub motor driven at 72v might do it.

Many options.. budget ?

 

[Tom]

Nice bike. Probably way more than I need though. As far as my budget. Probably not much more than $1500. I don't want to spend a small fortune as I will be leaving it behind - even though it will be hidden I'll enjoy my backpacking trip a lot more knowing it's not a $4000 bike that might not be there when I get back. :wink:

 

[Tom]

As far as a BMX with rear wheel hub motor driven at 72v, a couple questions.

First, what are the advantages of rear wheel hub vs. front wheel hub? Are they better for uphill?

Second, what kind of batteries would you recommend for that setup? I fear using SLA will not work for me since I can't recharge immediately. Will NIMH or Lithium for what I plan to do push me well beyond my budget?

 

[Ypedal]

NIMH/NICAD availability is the biggest problem right at this moment.. 8ah would be plenty with a 20 amp controller at 72v.

Rear wheel is better for going up hill, specially with a BMX where most of the weight / traction is on the rear wheel. I fear a front wheel may just spin at times, and makes popping the front wheel easier over stumps ruts and what not..

 

[xyster]

Any decent NiMH, Nicad, or Lithium battery pack appropriately sized for that distance and those hills is going to put you way over budget. Enough lead batteries will probably be way too heavy, and as you noted, die very quickly.

If it was me, I'd figure $1000 for the bike/motor/controller/throttle and accessories, and $1,000-$1,500 for the batteries.

And (I'm a little biased on this one) since your route contains long hills, I'd choose the 5304 hubmotor in the smallest wheel that'd fit the frame (20" if possible, else 24", else 26") and run it with a 48v, 60v, or 72v battery pack, using the crystalyte 72v 40amp controller. 48v 40amps with the 5304 will pull you up almost any NW logging road with pedaling optional. 72v 40a will pull you up very steep NW roads at a clip of 15-20mph.

I don't think a pre-built bike like the Giant is going to cut it for you. I think you'll be much happier with the right kit (but maybe not so happy about the price...).

--Fellow NW US rider.

 

[Tom]

Ah, good point on the rear wheel. I tried out some ebikes today at a local shop but only rode on pavement.

What do you guys think about a cheapo mountain bike outfitted with the new Crystalyte Cannon Conversion Kit? Looks like it comes with NIMH batteries. Not sure if it has enough voltage though? Keep in mind I'm willing to pedal. I don't care about speed as much as I do torque. Is 36V too wimpy? Would getting an extra 36V battery solve that or not? Even with an extra battery it would be under my budget.

 

[Ypedal]

Small wheels have more leverage than large diameter wheels.

A 409 in a 16" at 72v would be strong...or a 4011 in a 20"

The Clyte motors really don't wake up below 48v... better with higher volts..

If you go with an X5 setup.. you will go over budget to do it right..

 

[xyster]

We're still awaiting the first user reports about the Cannon. Supposedly its capabilities are in between the 4xx series and 530x series.

The complicating problem here is a 4 mile 15% grade. That's steep. 36v 35 amps might be enough if you're willing to peddle a fair bit. 36v 20 amps will probably not take you up any faster than walking speed -- assuming the hubmotor doesn't bog down and refuse to go.

The Cannon hubmotor with the 35 or 40 amp crystalyte controller and 36v-48v ~13ah NiMH could be a good system within your price range.

Don't know if you're in the US, but here's some representative controllers:
http://www.poweridestore.com/Brushless-Controllers/Series-500-Controllers
Representative NiMH packs (either one 36v or two 24v in series):
http://www.poweridestore.com/NiMH-Battery-Packs/36V-13Ah-NiMH-Battery-Pack
http://www.poweridestore.com/NiMH-Battery-Packs/24V-13Ah-NiMH-Battery-Pack

 

[BiGH]

Given your budget and requirements, i'd prolly steer away from the crystalyte motors! (waiting for the shock and horror by other people).

I'd be looking at either a chain driven motor (like the elation kits) or a puma.

The main reason for these two is GEARS!
the chain driven motor runs through your normal chain to help you up steep mountains.

the puma is geared internally so it makes a fantastic hill climber (much better than the crystalytes) when run at LOWER voltages.

If it was Me, i'd be looking at getting 2-3 products from evtech.

The puma, the 37v Lipo battery and optionally the 35amp controller.
(US$750 + US$599 + US$135)

crystalyte are great, but you do need 2 run higher voltages and amperages through them to really make them shine!

(i'm currently building a 408 based commuter)

edit: forgot to say - its also a lot LIGHTER to go this route. check out maytag's setup http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=541&highlight=maytag+gets+bmc

 

[Tom]

Thanks BiGH. When you say the puma, are you referring to this kit? Does it come with a wheel like the other kits?

BTW, looking at the stats I posted earlier (4 miles 15% grade), that appears to be an extreme example after doing the math on some other logging roads. More typical might be 4 miles 10% grade.

 

[BiGH]

Thanks BiGH. When you say the puma, are you referring to this kit? Does it come with a wheel like the other kits?

BTW, looking at the stats I posted earlier (4 miles 15% grade), that appears to be an extreme example after doing the math on some other logging roads. More typical might be 4 miles 10% grade.

yes thats the kit i was thinking of.

most ppl here are impartial to a particular product i find, i'm not better to get best tools for the job.
Bottom bracket drive is also really good since you can select the gear ratios you want.

My personal preference however is to go for a hub motor - more stealthy

 

[Ypedal]

Is there alot of mud and wet stuff involved ? deep ruts etc? or mostly hard packed dry dirt ?

 

[Tom]

Mostly hard pack. Just roads with a locked gate or roads that have washed out at one spot but are otherwise driveable by car.

 

[xyster]

Thanks BiGH. When you say the puma, are you referring to this kit? Does it come with a wheel like the other kits?

BTW, looking at the stats I posted earlier (4 miles 15% grade), that appears to be an extreme example after doing the math on some other logging roads. More typical might be 4 miles 10% grade.

Yes, that's the Puma hubmotor. Unfortunately, the stock Puma's motor wires are too thin to carry the current from a 35 amp controller without excessive heat and losses. So people here open them up and rewire it with thicker wire. The Puma has the best hill-climbing torque/weight/power ratio of any of the hubmotors, and would be an excellent choice for your bike if you can run it with a > 30 amp controller at 36 or 48 volts. I noticed Texas Electric says to call about 35 amp controller options for this motor. You might want to do that, and ask about the wheel and spokes, and if they modify the Puma's wiring for you to carry the higher current. This motor also works with crystalyte hubmotor controllers, though the connectors and wire colors are different and can take a little figuring out.
As far as wheels, whatever size you choose (20" 24" 26") you'll want a double-wall wheel for added strength. As far as spokes, try to get 12 gauge spokes -- 13 gauge spokes are OK too, but 13 gauge spokes sometimes break if not kept properly tightened.

The kits that run through the gears look great on paper, but the install can be tricky depending on the frame you've got, the motor is not well protected from water and debris, and the available motors are small, so the performance isn't any better than a mid-power hubmotor. Jondoh here has both a hubmotor bike and gear-driven bike and has reviewed both.

Cyclone gear-drive bike build and review:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=395&highlight=
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=506&highlight=

Puma reviews:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=226&highlight=
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=541&highlight=

 

[BiGH]

Xy made me remmemmber something too - that the puma hub motors usually do not come laced into a wheel - the crystalyte ones do (well they do here).

the puma actually works out to be the most expensive of the three hub motors (4,5 series and puma).

I agree with xy about the need to change the wires but this is minor.

 

[Tom]

Another thought. What about 2 Crystalyte Cannon kits? One for the front and one for the back. Attached to a cheapo mountain bike it would also seem to keep me in my budget.

 

[xyster]

Another thought. What about 2 Crystalyte Cannon kits? One for the front and one for the back. Attached to a cheapo mountain bike it would also seem to keep me in my budget.

That's a very good idea, I think, so long as you have room on the bike for both battery packs and both controllers. The throttle leads can be split such that one throttle controls both controllers. That'll give you 36 volts 40 amps and all-wheel-drive.

Even at that low power, I'd put at least one torque arm on the front motor.
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1664&highlight=

 

[Tom]

Thanks for the torque arm link. Would I need that on a mountain bike with a steel fork?

Another question. If I were going the route of 2 hub motors, is it possible to use one controller for both?

 

[xyster]

Thanks for the torque arm link. Would I need that on a mountain bike with a steel fork?

Yes. For 36 volts or less, a front torque arm is not an absolutely necessity, usually. But you'll be bumpin' around those logging roads, and for $20, it seems foolish not to use a torque arm when many other e-bikers have ruined their forks (and almost a lot more) by foregoing a torque arm, thinking the steel front dropouts were strong enough. Rear dropouts are much stronger, and I haven't seen any reports of problems with hubmotors tearing apart rear dropouts -- though a couple folks reported their rear hubmotors hopped out of the dropouts while they were riding because the bolts weren't sufficiently tight. Make sure to re-torque those bolts after your first ride, and use locking washers and loctite.

On that note, if you find the axle is too wide to fit in your bike's front and/or rear dropouts, grind the axle just a little. Don't grind the dropouts, even though some instructions with some kits advise grinding the dropouts -- don't want to weaken the weak links any further!

Another question. If I were going the route of 2 hub motors, is it possible to use one controller for both?

Not for the brushless motors you're looking at. Multiple brushed motors can be operated from a single controller.

That Cannon kit looks like a good value for the money.

 

[Tom]

OK, that leads to another question which is whether the torque arm would allow it to work on an mountain bike with an aluminum fork? Or is it only advisable to use a rear hub on an aluminum fork bike?

I'm salivating over the thought of outfitting a Montague Paratrooper with the Puma kit. I know it's a bit over my budget but the bike looks too cool!

 

[BiGH]

yes, texaselectricbikes.com sell these too. however they all use rear hub motors. I highly recommend u using a rear hub motor as the dropouts and frame will be stronger.


http://www.texaselectricbikes.com/catalog/emb36-electric-mountain-bike-p-185.html

http://www.texaselectricbikes.com/catalog/tidalforce-m750-p-28.html

 

[Tom]

I saw that. It looks like I could build my own with the puma kit for a bit cheaper. Decent price for the m-750 though. Does anyone know how the puma w/ 15ah lipo battery would compare to the m-750 in terms of hill climbing ability and range? The bike with puma kit it would appear to be quite a bit lighter due to the battery?

 

[xyster]

OK, that leads to another question which is whether the torque arm would allow it to work on an mountain bike with an aluminum fork? Or is it only advisable to use a rear hub on an aluminum fork bike?

Both steel and aluminum forks should use a torque arm. Steel tends to give warning before breaking, whereas aluminum doesn't. But aluminum forks aren't necessarily weaker -- that depends on many other factors such as type of aluminum, thickness, etc. Folks here have successfully employed front hubmotors on both types.

 

[xyster]

I saw that. It looks like I could build my own with the puma kit for a bit cheaper. Decent price for the m-750 though. Does anyone know how the puma w/ 15ah lipo battery would compare to the m-750 in terms of hill climbing ability and range? The bike with puma kit it would appear to be quite a bit lighter due to the battery?

From my read of the Puma and m-750 reviews, the Puma system will win on hill climbing and range hands down. The geared Puma motor produces more torque for the same power input. And that 15ah Lipoly provides 10-12ah before the low-voltage cutoff kicks in; the TidalForce bikes use 8 or 9ah NiMH batteries in the front hub.