New Crystalyte Motor series (HT35 / HS35 and HT24 / HS24)

[gensem]

I understand Arlo... I wish I had the resources to do my owns tests.
I think I ll settle for a HS using 18s lipo because 24s/2p ll not fit in my bicycle triangle.

 

[nicobie]

Excellent info Arlo1. Exactly what I needed. I'm going to limit the amps to 60 on my 22s HT3525 system.

 

[Bazaki]

0,1 Kw 20,58 kmh
0,2 Kw 29,26 kmh
0,3 Kw 35,48 kmh
0,4 Kw 40,36 kmh
0,5 Kw 44,66 kmh
0,6 Kw 48,12 kmh
0,7 Kw 51,18 kmh
0,8 Kw 53,95 kmh
0,9 Kw 56,51 kmh
1,0 Kw 58,58 kmh
1,1 Kw 61,04 kmh
1,2 Kw 63,13 kmh
1,3 Kw 65,08 kmh
1,4 Kw 66,91 kmh
1,5 Kw 68,64 kmh
1,6 Kw 69,33 kmh
1,7 Kw 71,95 kmh
1,8 Kw 73,50 kmh
1,9 Kw 75 kmh

This seems to be a list for moped/scooters, if the police will catch a fast scooter they can run it at the moped-dyno, the list above seems to be the construction speed.

 

[Arlo1]

The cops here have no acsess to such a thing. You will not see a cop in the us pull an ebike over abd dyno it.

 

[electricwheels.de]

...I wouldn't advise noobs even push it that far, not with a sealed motor. I pushed a stock sealed HS35 (in the interest of R&D) with 100a and 70v so similar peak power and significantly browned the windings +/- cooked a hall (not sure if the temp cooked the hall or it's a chewed through wire yet, haven't had a chance to check) At first I thought I'd straight cooked the windings until I found it still ran ok with a sensorless controller. So yeah, my recommendation would 5-6kw battery power input max for a stock motor and ideally drilled if you're planning to run at that power level.

So installing a temperature fuse would perhaps be a good idea. But at what temperature should it cut out?
There are 4 types commercially available:
104 C°
112 C°
129 C°
141 C°
Seeing the Hallies are rated 150 C°, my preference would be 2 fuses:
at 129 C° a red light appears, at 141 C° the System cuts back by using the CA limit function.

Give me your thoughts please.

 

[icekreme1002]

I'm also curious to what the safe max temp of this motor would be.
I hit 100c pretty easily and seem to loose a bit of power if i get to 110c+ so I assume the limit is close to here.
I see drbass has his alarm set for 142c on an x5 in his ebike to the future vid, but can't find much for this motor. http://www.youtube.com/user/Doctorbass#p/a/u/1/ziFWmyvxGWI

I just want to know what point am i beginning to damage windings/magnets on this particular motor. I also notice i can just smell the windings/varnish if i get above 90c so im hoping its not quite this low. I assume pretty much any smell means the varnish is beginning to suffer? or will it put off an odor before it starts to cook?

Thanks guys

 

[electricwheels.de]

I also notice i can just smell the windings/varnish if i get above 90c so im hoping its not quite this low. I assume pretty much any smell means the varnish is beginning to suffer? or will it put off an odor before it starts to cook?

I just looked up the temp range for RS Isolating varnish, which is -55 C° to +120 C°

So maybe the 112 C° / 129 C° combo would be better suited ?

 

[methods]

Temperature rating is totally relative. I have run 9C motors over 200C for years and not had a failure. If you look around you can find pictures of X5's I have also ran to 200C. The continual heat will just start to embritle and slowly compromise the insulators. Failure almost always occurs after a single extreme over-temp situation. Folks dont realize that heat comes from low RPM loading (wheelies, slow grinding) and that a small part of the stator can spike from 140C to >>200C in less than a few seconds.

The real solution is to not worry so much about the actual temperatures.... worry more about riding style and loading. With time you will intuitively know when 40% of the 7KW you are driving into the motor is being directly converted into heat.

I have been running my HS3540 in a 26" rim on an 85lb bike (285lbs with rider) on 18S lipo with a 100A current limit for a few months now. Hub is bone stock out of the box - no holes. It has not even gotten hot yet. No need for 6 gauge phase wires, 3" holes, or temperature probes The key is riding style and keeping your wrist out of it!

Enjoy the acceleration in tiny bites
Spend the rest of the time focusing on efficiency

The big change for me was when I quit thinking about efficiency as (green, Prius, skinny tires, lame) and started thinking about it as (allows me to run 10KW without overheating). Apply your power in the high efficiency section of the operating range and enjoy! Keep the hard accelerations off the line to a minimum. Enjoy tons of acceleration at over 20mph.

-methods

 

[Spacey]

On my way home it's slightly more uphill than down, some long hills are about 2 to 3% incline. Now I've set my throttle to 93% ( approx 34mph in 26inch wheel) by programming the 45A 12 Fet sensorless controller .... looking at the setup for the programming software... I have it now at 45.7A Battery current and 92.8A Phase current with a 2sec Overcurrent Detection delay.

II ride WOT all the way and it takes 21 mins to get home, but my HS3540 is too hot too touch for quite sometime. Any ideas, I do love this motor for the power... it never goes below 30mph.

Need to lower the amps as the sensorless controller can't sync up and goes nuts if you are not really gentle on the throttle (not the sensorless controller that comes with sensorless HS3540 kits), very cool here in UK so can't be the weather. Any thoughts... I reckon some cooling holes, easy enough to do. Maybe it doesn't like the controller.

I start off with the cells at approx 4.12V and finish at around 3.8v with 17.4Ah Lipo pack at 66v full charge. Bike is a Greyborg so a little on the heavy side... but so nice to ride.

 

[RVD]

I've been riding my HS3540 for the past week or so. I generally ride for 16 miles pushing about 30 amps. Total trip is about 45 minutes and I use up about 10+ah (600wh) on my 48v lifepo4. the motor does get hot to the touch but i can hold my hand there for about 5 seconds or so before i have to pull my hand away. i think this motor is pretty happy at around 2000 watts. how safe is it to go up higher? max speed is around 34 mph in this setup.

12 fet controller is barely warm.

 

[SniperGaulois]

I'm also curious to what the safe max temp of this motor would be.
90 - 110 - 200'C
Thanks guys

Seriously, you get your motors so hot that you can fry bacon and eggs on them? only heat faliure i had was an xlyte 406, i dragged a little girly up a hill for 200-300 meters incline and a magnet came unstuck, started scratching around inside the barrel. i glued it back with a thermal resistance glue for washing machines...

but 110 degress on a 9C? woah!

 

[methods]

but 110 degress on a 9C? woah!

I just got done saying that I run my 9C at over 200C every day confirmed on video through a cooling hole on the stator with an IR temp gun.
110C is nothing

You can run the 9C until smoke pours out of the holes (also on video) and it does not even affect performance. The reason so many guys fry them is that they dont have cooling holes so all that heat just builds up and builds up and then they go and launch real hard from a dead stop and spike it to >> 200C.

(We are talking stator temps here - not cover temps... because cover temps mean nothing. Your cover can be 50C while your stator is 200C depending on the timing of things)

-methods

 

[John in CR]

Seriously, you get your motors so hot that you can fry bacon and eggs on them?

If your motor is getting that hot, then your current limit is set too high. The difference in performance is quite small in comparison to the durability increase and increase in efficiency if you determine to proper current level to set your controller for a given motor, voltage, and the loads you give it. Play around with Justin's simulator at ebikes.ca . The red line is the power out. You can easily find the threshold for your ebike, and see how little the power curve left of peak power changes with increases in current settings. Peak power and the power curve above that point don't change at all. If you dial things in to accept a bit of current limiting (a straighter curve to the left of peak power) you'll get a much happier and cooler motor. The issue then becomes with a speed wind motor, whether the controller can handle it. That too is easily determined by checking controller temps.

Take it from a fat guy who flies up mountains, that it's all in the settings, and those who throw as much power as possible at their motors are guaranteed failures with almost no performance gains and lots of wasted battery capacity.

John

 

[Andje]

going from 6500 to 8500W on my hs30 i saw no real performance increase but i burnt two hubs. dont burn your own!

 

[gensem]

Quick hijack... does the HS has alot more climbing ability than a 9c 2806?

 

[methods]

Quick hijack... does the HS has alot more climbing ability than a 9c 2806?

About 30% more

-methods

 

[Arlo1]

Tests to come soon.

 

[Bazaki]

Nice Idea, I installed a cpu fan in my 18 fet controller since it got hot when it is sealed inside a triangle frame bag. now it stays very cool.
It is a 12v cpu fan, but I use the + and - from the controller. there is about 5v coming out at the hall sensor plug and other parts, throttle, CA plug etc.

When I tap the 5v from the throttle it does effect the throttle ( stuttering) so tapping from the hall sensor should be better, you could use the 5v from the hall sensors inside the HUB motor also, only the fans will run much slower ofcourse.But there is no need to get another 12v wire through the shaft.

 

[Skippic]

This surely has been discussed previously, but wouldn't putting some non conductive liquid inside the hub solve the heat transfer problem?

 

[Arlo1]

This surely has been discussed previously, but wouldn't putting some non conductive liquid inside the hub solve the heat transfer problem?

You meen sealing it in? It will leak out lol it can't be sealed in! And if the hub was full it will create great drag. But go ahead and try it maybe i'm wrong and you will help make some progress!!! Im currently cross drilling a X5 axle to run watter though it from a windshield washer pump to spray on the windings. Who cares if it is conductive the windings are insulated and from one winding to the next they voltage difference is not so great! eg a 6 turn motor with 100 volts has 100/6= 16.6666v difference from one turn to the next so with the insulation and the low voltage difference it will never hurt a thing. When i do dyno runs I spray water in the motors all the time to keep them cool!!!

 

[Arlo1]

Nice Idea, I installed a cpu fan in my 18 fet controller since it got hot when it is sealed inside a triangle frame bag. now it stays very cool.
It is a 12v cpu fan, but I use the + and - from the controller. there is about 5v coming out at the hall sensor plug and other parts, throttle, CA plug etc.

When I tap the 5v from the throttle it does effect the throttle ( stuttering) so tapping from the hall sensor should be better, you could use the 5v from the hall sensors inside the HUB motor also, only the fans will run much slower ofcourse.But there is no need to get another 12v wire through the shaft.

I am running them in series parallel 3 in series x 2 sets. sorce voltage from the switch at 84v so each fan will get 28v fully charged. I did some destructive testing to find the limits of one fan and at 12s lipo with nominal charge (46.2v) it went down! So it will be fine at 28 volts!!!

 

[Kiwi]

How much current do you think you can safely draw from the 5v hall wire?

 

[icekreme1002]

Thanks for the 'safe' heat explanation Methods and John. So basically the windings can take a little abuse and I shouldn't worry to much about a weak winding smell at around 90-100c, but more about what spikes I am getting.

I'm running 18s lipo, lyen 18fet set to 60/150a 2.5 block 85% max speed for around 5000w peaks and 4000w constant up steep hills. I realise I can get it a little further looking at the simulator and results here, but i need to work more on my riding style and throttle control off the line 1st. Still having to much fun dragging cars scooters and Lycra wearers. Will also be investing a temp probe asap.

Arlo I love the fan and wiper pump idea!!

What size are the fans? I may attempt something similar.
I notice that in the images the holes are largely covered by the center of the fans. As you probably know, this is a dead spot for airflow. So if you don't get the results you are after, maybe some even smaller fans.

For max efficiency I would maybe also consider small shrouds or ducts on the fans to help guide the airflow to where it will naturally go in the wheel (if they fit) and gaskets under the fans. Sealing those gaps does make a difference.
Cant wait for your results! and my 5404 so ill have a motor to ride on while i attempt projects like this.

 

[Arlo1]

How much current do you think you can safely draw from the 5v hall wire?

Is this directed at me? I am not using the hall wire. I am using the key switch!

 

[Arlo1]

Thanks for the 'safe' heat explanation Methods and John. So basically the windings can take a little abuse and I shouldn't worry to much about a weak winding smell at around 90-100c, but more about what spikes I am getting.

I'm running 18s lipo, lyen 18fet set to 60/150a 2.5 block 85% max speed for around 5000w peaks and 4000w constant up steep hills. I realise I can get it a little further looking at the simulator and results here, but i need to work more on my riding style and throttle control off the line 1st. Still having to much fun dragging cars scooters and Lycra wearers. Will also be investing a temp probe asap.

Arlo I love the fan and wiper pump idea!!

What size are the fans? I may attempt something similar.
I notice that in the images the holes are largely )
For max efficiency I would maybe also consider small shrouds or ducts on the fans to help guide the airflow to where it will naturally go in the wheel (if they fit) and gaskets under the fans. Sealing those gaps does make a difference.
Cant wait for your results! and my 5404 so ill have a motor to ride on while i attempt projects like this.

This is my second fan cooling set up in a hub motor! The first one was in my X5304 and they work very well. You have to remember these motors hardly move any air in side them selfs on their own!
SO the fans I found are cheep ebay fans rated at 12 volts and I'm powering them to 28v at a full charge! They work great.
I got this bike back together and charged and charged an extra 10ah 20s pac to through in my backpack all at 620 and had a local scooter group to go meet up with my girlfriend at 630. So I set the CA at a current limit at 50 amps and started it impressed them a bit then 1/2 way though the ride I upped it to 70amps and I was just at the same cruising speed and acceleration as the faster scooters it was pretty cool I wanted to keep the amps low to help save batteries! I put on 35km in one ride and most of the time I was over 65km/h