NEW FR-DH E-Bike project >3Kw

[Dauntless]

Were you in the U.S., I'd be fascinated to see how this elaborate motorcycle frame was received come time to register a moped, or if you tried riding it without registration at all. It's beautiful, it screams "Look at me, I'M FAST!"

 

[panurge]

Were you in the U.S., I'd be fascinated to see how this elaborate motorcycle frame was received come time to register a moped, or if you tried riding it without registration at all. It's beautiful, it screams "Look at me, I'M FAST!"

Hi Dauntless, Thanks for your words and your funny humor.....I'm In Italy (Firenze) and often in Berlin (Germany).
Well, obviously (at least until rules for Ebikes are unchanged, that could be near or far depends from the point of view) the Bike is not legal to ride on common road....but this is not the original purpose....in fact I've mounted street tires, because I want to test the bike in paved (not public) areas....but the project still remain to use the bike for dirt uphills/downhills in a private area.

I am for rules that fix speed and mass as the only limits, maybe with different weight limit depends on the wheels number (I.E. 2 wheels = 25Kg, 3 wheels = 35Kg, 4 wheels = 45Kg where legal) and a 35 or 30Km/h speed limit for everybody.
I think that a Non-Watt based policy could be well introduced....the crucial question, concern the safety for normal bikers mostly on bike-paths, that could be only partially fixed with the Speed-Mass limit...
A good policy is like happens in Berlin, where they actually put effort to increase the city-roads with 30Km/h car limit and to allow bikes to go also Wrong-Direction in there, instead of continue spending lot of funds to build bicycles-paths (that are a lot, though, and the construction is decreased, not stopped).

Rationality and responsibility of people are needed for any policy to get success...You don't need label on a bike, no helmet, and no insurance....but you could see most people in Germany with helmets and a lot of people with personal insurances that cover also for bikes problems......

Back to the bike....
It's actually 26.3 Kg with 4x5000mAh lipo bricks, lipoguards a 3/4 of the second uncutted chain and the electric wire I've used to hook the bike to the scale....

 

[Whiplash]

Very nice! The bike looks like it was designed with Matt's drive in mind! It should be loads of fun on mild trails but I would be careful on slower high load scenarios. The controller might not like it...

 

[panurge]

It should be loads of fun on mild trails but I would be careful on slower high load scenarios. The controller might not like it...

Thanks Whip
Yes I know that, and I will try to be careful , though, my original purpose is to get the top of the track with the motor (typically 6-10 Km of mild stepped good road) and enjoy without assist the 2-4 Km of the Downhill-Freeride track. If something goes wrong with the CC160 HV (with or without the CA-LRC) I have the Burtie optical sensored road to try. And I hope to get good infos testing the bike on paved (maybe slightly wet) roads with short ramps.

 

[Miles]

I am for rules that fix speed and mass as the only limits, maybe with different weight limit depends on the wheels number (I.E. 2 wheels = 25Kg, 3 wheels = 35Kg, 4 wheels = 45Kg where legal) and a 35 or 30Km/h speed limit for everybody.
I think that a Non-Watt based policy could be well introduced....the crucial question, concern the safety for normal bikers mostly on bike-paths, that could be only partially fixed with the Speed-Mass limit...

Hi Jules,

Did you see this:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=664118#p664118

One of ETRA’s requests to the European authorities was to exclude pedal assisted electric bicycles with assistance up to 25 km/h from the type-approval, irrespective of their motor output level. The motor output has no effect on the speed since the motor automatically stops at 25 km/h, irrespective of that motor output. IMCO adopted the relevant amendment but it was subsequently deleted in the trialogue negotiations because Commission and Council feared the amendment would create a safety risk.

 

[panurge]

Hi Miles
Yes, that's one of the reasons I've posted about this argument... As I told some time ago, I have to see these rules voted, confirmed and applied to trust that was true.....
Maybe this kind of thing works better if pushed from single countries and from the bottom (so people and consumer associations and not only retailers :wink: )....The EU could be an obstacle there, due to the heterogeneity/high number of members and the subsequent lack of common policy, (or maybe I could invert the terms, that gives the same result). Just see what actually happens for decisions much more crucial for our life than "Bike rules questions"..... :?

Type-approval rules are really different between EU countries, here in Italy you could encounter a lot of problems even to slightly change the tire size of a car....In Germany, where typically they was more permissive, things are changed in the last years.....for what I know Spain is the best place to obtain a Type-approval actually. Another (personal) way could be to have a foundation or a no-profit company or a vehicles manufacturing company officially researching or testing on a vehicle, so you could obtain a personal Label with linked insurance to drive almost any kind of vehicle that meet General and street rules even if not type approval....but if Police stops you or you have an accident....you could still have serious problems

 

[panurge]

Some update about the tensioner: I've changed the position of the tensioner, than slightly loosen the middle bolt, than applied a spring from a minimoto's side stand, hooking one side to the CNC slot on the Alfine's terminal arm, and the other to the protruding bolt used to fix the whole tensioner thru the trellis hole, then applied a strip around the spring and thru the hollow bolt of the alfine.....this helps the spring to stay in place and avoid the loosen bolt to unscrew.... well, I'm Jumping on the pedals from yesterday and nothing appear do be wrong..... I think I will definitively try to mantain the shimano alloy structure, replace the roller with a metal one with bigger bearing (even if the original is silent) use a metal strip for the spring instead of the plastic one, and make a small alu plate with the shape of the trellis hole, with a bore to fix the tensioner, if you can understand.....

Anyway Here are some pics and a small vid
[youtube]AGZe7yRqN9I[/youtube]

 

[panurge]

Another short vid compressing the rear suspension.
[youtube]driaumUNwaA[/youtube]
Sorry for the poor quality, but it take short time to upload it and I think it's good enough to see the chain movement between the BB Cup and the Pivot... I would add a roller idler near to the ENO (I can use one of the DaVinci mounting lightening holes, that are pretty aligned) It could helps avoiding chain hits on the BB cup and wrap 1 tooth more around the ENO, also I have the derailleur tube where the DaVinci is clamped to be used for a chainguide (that's indeed what it's made for) as supplement option.

I also I've explored the option to use a second MRP Boomerang Left Side for fixed rollers, but I would see how the actual simple setup works....I can say that pedaling, it is pretty good, the chain is tight at every compression grade, and the prove that the tensioner is working good is that I've first linked the chain with a plastic strip simulating 2 liks in lenght and, repeatedly compressing the suspension, the strip is not loosen or enlarged.

Some rubber (I.E. from an enduro swingarm guard) is needed to protect BB and pivot point from chain hits, and, I suppose, a bashguard for the rear chainring will be needed too, that could be made quiet easily, by drilling 10 small holes to the 10 chainring arms at the outer ring level, and an easy (also by hand tools) alloy or other material 2d sheet cut for the guards to be bolted on.

My actual looks are for a finger lever potentiometer throttle to replace the Magura that's really hard to manage off-road, I've heard only about the Bladez one but is discontinued, maybe something could be custom made using some existing pot or the same magura as Matt did with a CNC tumb some time ago...I think that the concept of a small finger lever is really what is needed for off-road purpose....

Ah! Searching for triggers on the web I've found this Blog:
http://topsecretev.com/blog.php?categories=e-bike%20cycle%20analyst
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ZBYhWvoJx04/T7_O1CjzJaI/AAAAAAAAAEw/T5BuDKjCc8U/s1600/IMG_20120511_142617.jpg
Don't know if yet discussed here, I have not so much time to verify it so I post the links here....what surprised me is the similarity (both name and aspect) with the Justin's device....

 

[Miles]

Ah! Searching for triggers on the web I've found this Blog:
http://topsecretev.com/blog.php?categories=e-bike%20cycle%20analyst
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ZBYhWvoJx04/T7_O1CjzJaI/AAAAAAAAAEw/T5BuDKjCc8U/s1600/IMG_20120511_142617.jpg
Don't know if yet discussed here, I have not so much time to verify it so I post the links here....what surprised me is the similarity (both name and aspect) with the Justin's device....

I was not sold yet, I had to built one up.... After searching around the web, basically, I could not find much except overpriced Cyclone kit clones, only with nicer CNC brackets. Until I discovered a Hong Kong based company called GNG Electric.........

......Expect to see a CNC'd, all belt driven, light weight, high torque, quiet and affordable mid-drive system from "Top Secret EV" at Taipei Cycle 2013 on display.

Sounds like they're really into innovation

 

[panurge]

I was not sold yet, I had to built one up.... After searching around the web, basically, I could not find much except overpriced Cyclone kit clones, only with nicer CNC brackets. Until I discovered a Hong Kong based company called GNG Electric.........

......Expect to see a CNC'd, all belt driven, light weight, high torque, quiet and affordable mid-drive system from "Top Secret EV" at Taipei Cycle 2013 on display.

Sounds like they're really into innovation

Eheh Yes, I decided to say nothing about the GNG

Some more pics about the tensioner and a left side view with the chain mounted....I need a single link more indeed, I could put 2 more and slightly slide the drive forward, but then the drive will interfere with fork's travel, an half link junction or a whole half link chain could solve the problem.

 

[panurge]

a new pic trying a chainguide roller near to the ENO, seems perfect.....add a bit of drag, though...some hd vid soon.

 

[lostrack]

a new pic trying a chainguide roller near to the ENO, seems perfect.....add a bit of drag, though...some hd vid soon.

Cool build!

If you're going offload, make some keeper plates for your back chainring. Lateral chain movement from general riding can whip the chain off the ring. Very reliable after that.

Check my build for a pic, although I'm sure you know what I'm describing

 

[panurge]

Hello Lostrack
Your buildlog has helped me a lot, thanks for share your challenge .

Yes a rear chainring guard is planned, I'll take your advice as a confirm that it's strongly needed, thanks...

News about the build:

- Found a beautiful alloy case for Lipos, I'm waiting for the postman ....
- found the right alu brackets to mount the case with the existing frame bolts, they are servo motor brackets

To try the pivot drive setup:

- purchased a 12mm Ti shaft of 200mm in lenght
- got hard to find metric 12mm ID flanged bearings in various OD size (21, 24 and 28mm OD)
- Sketched an adapter for freewheels similar to the Matt/FFR ones but for 12mm shafts and that could mount also an additional fixed sprocket, I will need also another one with LH threads for a Lefty FW on the left side.
Searching for solutions there, I've found this interesting spider, that seems not mentioned before on ES: http://www.k-124.co.uk/product.php?product_id=123 , It could be useful in some setups (not this one)....not cheap, though...

To look forward:
I have a surplus 160x80 CPU cooling radiator (for 2 80x80 fan) It seems to be made for water cooling the astro and the ESC and looks good with the bike. A friend of mine, that's a professional PC/CPU assembler, and who knows the bike, has offered his support for free, has already proposed some genial approach-ideas and he asks me just how many watts I'm planning to subtract from the system. Have you guys an idea?

 

[panurge]

Updated weight with a lighter seat post, not the saddle indeed, that's my personal saddle from years and 'cause has the shape of my ass (or viceversa) I wouldn't change it with others at the moment :wink: ...
View attachment 2

I will post soon sketches that show freewheel adapters (for the pivot drive setup) and the simple idea for liquid cooling the Astro that my buddy has figured out.

Cheers

 

[panurge]

The cooling option is not on the plan, it is only a virtual idea, I think Matt (and maybe most of the DaVinci owners) has figured out the same concept, that is relatively simple but in any case increases complexity and weight of the system. Definitively not to do until you notice a temp problem with the motor. Anyway this is the basic idea and a tribute to the DaVinci design :

This is the projecting pivot drive assembly with a 12mm shaft and F6001ZZ bearings:
with an adapter idea.
Welcome to critics and contribution......

 

[panurge]

Hi folks
Update: I've made a good coiled 2pole cable by using 8awg wires and piece of a plastic spring toy, those that step down the stairs, if you know... than put the whole 2pole+spring into a 18mm flexy thin silicon tube (made for medical purpose).
This is a short Video of the static bike with a battery back-pack the coiled wire connection and everything mounted to the bike, with the beauty of my town that helps.... [youtube]gDJZk2V-H30[/youtube]also made a polycarbonate small plate for a safe and stable mount of the spring chain seeker to the frame, and an alloy support for fix the upper DaVinci part so that the DaVinci works also as bridge between the triangle and the BB protrusion.
I plan to have the bike full working in the 2nd week of the new year.
I'll be in Berlin for the next 2 weeks so......
I Wish all you guys a merry Christmas and a better new year...

 

[panurge]

riding with a coiled main cable, good feeling.
[youtube]csVeTEEMMtw[/youtube]

 

[panurge]

looks neat
[youtube]fukA3PQS_S8[/youtube]

 

[kfong]

Great job!

 

[panurge]

Thanks Kin

I only hope that the 1 meter total length of the main battery cables will be not an issue......
I was just thinking about contacting you for your intelligent switch

 

[recumpence]

Absolute artwork!

I heard the brake squeal. Soft compount pads will cure that.

Matt

 

[panurge]

Absolute artwork!

I heard the brake squeal. Soft compount pads will cure that.

Matt

Thanks, if the coil don't makes problems, I think It's a good option, otherwise, I will try with 2 bricks laced to the frame and the rest in the backpack, I've tried the 6 bricks mounted at the toptube but the feeling is not good enough for me.....too high weight....I'm working for an under-the-downtube mount, just upside the motor.....perhaps it will cure a bit the wheeling tendency?

Eheh.....yes, the noisy squeal.... there are new hard pads and new bolts for the adapter....(front), haven't spent lot of time to fine-setup them though.....I'm focused on the Dark side of the bike

 

[panurge]

Hi guys, I've made 2 runs in an industrial area with the bike, I have a short vid but is really low res and unstable, don't makes justice to the bike so I decided to delete it, also, I'm waiting for a new pack and a new cam ........It pushes really hard, I've played a lot with the Torque limiter and finally it seems to work well, perhaps, the friction material needs some wear to start work properly...
There was only shorts ramps and I'll wait for true hills tests, but I feel it could be geared down for a better top speed without problems, actual ratio is 19:1 with a 24" wheel and approaching the ramps at 10Km/h it seems a monster climber I get a 40Km/h top speed run without pushing all and with limited Amps. With the servo interface and without the CA-LRC limiting, the bike is still rideable but throttle is really short and fast, however I like the speed based concept.....SILVIO!!!!??? How about your retarding throttle device?

On the other side, I've used the bike in a true Freeride track and descending long stairways (I mean long) without power but with everything laced: the drive is stable and the chains are tight....noticed some SA flex in excess during fast corners, some due to the natural single pivot flex attitude, but slightly increased by the added weight to the BB area.

 

[panurge]

I've replaced the pivot bearings so I could clarify the actual pivot's assembly, as discussed with Miles before:

And yes the bearings for the jackshaft fitted in the head housing..

I got that bit Is there another bearing for the swingarm on the other side of the head, though?

Than Looking the whole system disassembled I've decided to made some calculation and analysis about an idea I've posted yet:

Another idea should be a BB used as jackshaft (with a big swingarm pivot arrangement around the shell) and then use trial crank-arm's ends (I mean completely sliced arms) as spindle ends + freewheel threads....

And It seems to be doable for a new frame, (2 plates+ 1 swingarm+ 2 retainers+ 1 new seat-tube end and 1spacer)....simply beefing everything until the pivot axle meet a BB shell diameter.....
It will makes the vertical swingarm's element insanely beef, but, save lot of work and money for a new frame project instead of projecting and prototyping a dedicated jackshaft assembly with a more reasonable diameter...It should also cure a bit the pivot flex attitude.
The use of a standard BB shell (standard 73 mm should be perfect) and BB, opens some interesting alternatives:
- Allows to use crucial precision/high-end off the shelf components (a Ti Paragon shell could be perfect http://www.paragonmachineworks.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=BB0022 )
- a custom or off the shelf shaft with key or flats for freewheel adapters.
- or a SickBikeParts keyed bb with a sliced/rectified trial right arm end on the left Side and a keyed freewheel adapter + fixed sprocket on the right...(supposing this BB could be reversed)..
- or an ISIS BB with the same config left side and a custom isis splined FW adapter + fixed sprocket to the right that could be made starting from another sliced/CNCed, reversed, right arm end. Onza and Tensile made some useful flat 2d shapes crankarms for this purpose.(http://www.tartybikes.co.uk/cranks_single/tensile_uci_urban_legend_crank_arms/c515p290.html; http://www.tartybikes.co.uk/cranks_pair/onza_zoot_crankset_with_bashring/c514p11433.html), the the typical eccentricity of these parts could be the only problem I see....

With 1.5mm retainer caps (those I have in my hand with the axle), an array of 61809-2RS bearings (45x58x7) could be used around the shell for the swingarm pivoting, than the bb caps itself will acts as bolts to make the swingarm and the BB shell (usually from 1.5" to 42mm OD as in my case) solidly fixed, maybe cups with a larger custom flange will be needed or washers could be enough...Haven't investigated yet, but seems an easily solvable question.
Hope, with the help of pics, that everithing it's clear, anyway, I'll model something and I'll post some sketches soon.
Any kind of comment or advice is welcome...

 

[panurge]

some rapid sketches makes everything clear....
The black tubing is a 35mm one, for reference...