Newbie build -- please look over my component choices.

[tupp]

Thank you in advance! This is a great, informative site!

I just bought a 21-speed used Electra Townie with front shocks. It needs some work, but I should be a nice, comfortable ride.

I am 5'7', 155lbs.

My longest anticipated round trip (in Los Angeles) will have three legs:
- 8 miles
3-4hours stay (charging)
- 9.5 miles
2 hours stay (charging)
- 6 miles

There are a few hills and low grades.

After studying this forum, I would like to go with the "slightly-higher-voltage with a lower-rpm" route. I don't wan't to go much faster than 20mph. I have noticed that posters here often mention that newbies will eventually want increased speed/power.


Please advise on the following choices (and on good sources for these items):

- Mac Rear 10T, 255rpm -- kit from Cellman (with thumb throttle?);

- Sunthing-28 LiFePO4 15A, 48v It says that the "maximum sustained work current" is only 20A -- is that too low? (By the way, complaints on this forum scared me away from BMS Battery);

- Computer PSU to charge the Sunthing-28 LiFePO4;

- Portable charger (or should I stick with the one that comes with the Sunthing-28 battery);

- Free wheel -- any suggestions for a six-speed with an 11T sprocket?;

- Torque arm(s) -- Seems like they would have more leverage than torque plates. Even after reading about one of the Townie builds here, it still seems scary to drill holes into the aluminum drop-outs. If I go with arms, should I use two of them?;

- Power cut-off brake levers -- does the stock Cellman controller accept these? If so, is there a brand/model that anyone recommends? Has anyone instead tried to rig reed switches to the brake levers or v-brakes?;

- "Kool Pads" for V-brakes -- any recommendation on a specific model?;

- Cycle Analyst -- where do I get this?;

- Frame bag (don't want to build a frame enclosure yet) -- anyone know of one that decently fits a Townie frame?;

- Tires -- One of the tires on the Townie seems to have a problem. What tires for stock rims would you recommend for street riding?;

- Precharge circuit -- leaning toward the smaller additional lead with a 100ohm-1000ohm resistor;

- Any suggestions on a source for a cheap front rim? The stock rim is possibly "non-trueable" -- seems bent from an impact;

- Larger chainring (eventually).

Any advice is appreciated, and please point out any items left out of this list.

Thanks again!

 

[nebriancent]

stay away from a lower c rating on the battery or you will kill it ..... i love how headways handle but they are pricey

grab a proper charger and save yourself the headache of trying to mod something that will take hrs.. maybe days or weeks to mod and test (doesn’t have to be a fast charger just something that works as intended for your choice of battery)

for the Regen / cutout switch.. anything will work .. it just pulls a positive signal to ground so yes any form of momentary switch will work but i suggest even the cheapest from e-bikes.ca as i have been using them for over a year with no problems

don’t use v-brakes ... they are not intended to stop anything that heavy and or fast and they will only Need to be replaced (taking my own exp into consideration) 1-2 weeks per set and they will wear through a aluminium rim
do yourself a favour and get at worst some cheap cable drawn disk for the front at least

Torque arm(s and C A can be obtained from e-bikes.ca (they made the C A in the first place)

i have no idea where to get a frame bag

for tires i would suggest the schwalbe Marathon Plus lineup available at any real bike shop ive been to(Little pricey as well but you cant beat the reliability 6 months and 4000miles later and no flat)

precharge circuits are unnecessary for lower voltages (i just use a large switch 300 amp ready and don’t worry about it) although if you do increase your voltage later on it would be nice to avoid that bright flash when you turn on your bike with a plug

***EDITS SPELLING

 

[DAND214]

You'll love the MAC 10t with a mild controller. 20 amp max so you don't kill the battery. 48v15Ah should be enough since the peak draw will be around 20amps and drop as you get to speed.

Most things you are asking for you can get from Cell_man, I think.He has a lot more to offer than he lists on web site.

As for brakes, you will get mixed opinion from the forum. One will say Disc the only way others say mixed is great and then just v-brakes work fine but need adjustement often.
If you are trying to keep it under 25mph V brakes will do fine. remember there is no regen with a MAC or most any geared hub motor.

the charger with the battery won't be enough or last long, in most cases. Get a spare one from Cell_man or Sunthing.

As for a freewheel, why only 6 when you have a 21 speed bike. 11t 7 speed freewheel should fit perfect with the Mac. Once again Paul has them. Torque arms are a must on Aluminum with a torque type motor, once again as Paul, not sure on those.

The range you are looking at is doable with little or no charging. But keeping it chrged will help it's life cycle.

Dan

 

[nechaus]

id go with lipos to start with

 

[d8veh]

There's a relatively new supplier of the BMSBattery stuff at Geenbikekit.com. As far as we can figure out, the good staff defected from BMSBattery and set up on their own. They have almost exactly the same stuff and they're much more communicative and accurate with descriptions of what they have. So far, everybody including me is happy with what we got, so I can't comment on how they a complaint. They have a lot of nice headway batteries would go nicely with a MAC.

 

[dogman dan]

Looks like a decent choice on the motor kit, and battery. Sunthing should supply a decent battery, but if you have read much here you know I keep recomending the higher priced but similar pingbattery. Either way, it''s big enough to handle that controller, and may even be big enough to handle that entire ride on one charge. At 20 mph, if you pedal you should see 25-30 miles of total range.

Get a decent charger, but you don't need to go with a PSU. A good metal shell 5 amp charger should do you quite well. You could carry the sunthing charger for your out on the road charges. just carry it in a knapsack so it doesn't get bounced aroudn too much. Because you have some range, you won't need a fast charger for out on the road. A 2 amp charger would put 2 ah per hour into the battery, so 8 ah worth of charging time would extend your range to 35-40 miles. Plenty for sure even with a very slow charger.

CA, rear torque arms, and possibly the freewheel from Grin cycles. ( ebikes ca) I am not sure if you can get a controller with a CA plug from cellman. If not, the stand alone CA is still worth having, I have two of em. You don't need speed or amp limiting, so the stand alone is all you want anyway.

You might ask about a used wheel at a bike shop, or look at a flea market for one. Usually it's the back wheel that gets really trashed, so maybe you can just buy a junk bike, and snag a perfectly good front wheel off of it. Lastly, you could buy a new wheel from any of a zillion web sources, ebay, etc.

If you really want great wheels, Holmes Hobby is the expert at building hubmotor wheels. He could lace you up a great wheel using quality stuff on both wheels.

Doesn't the cellman kit come with ebrake levers? Personally, I've always found them something I didn't need. V brakes will work fine at 20 mph, just keep em adjusted good.

 

[nebriancent]

no disrespect intended dogman but after having disk not only save me money in the long run by not needing pads every 1-2 weeks but also having had it save my life in less then ideal weather conditions i respectfully disagree with you on the v-brake is good enuf deal

as soon as the rim gets wet they still wont grab the rim unless you drag them before you need to stop to dry them out

with disk, rain or shine doesn’t matter anymore for braking performance (providing your tires are up to the task)

 

[dogman dan]

Well, I don't know what you were doing, wearing out pads in a few weeks.

But I doubt it was riding around town at 20 mph or less. In general commuting, about 20-25 mph, I found I needed pads at the very most twice a year. So aobut 1500 miles per set. And we're talking about the very cheapest junky pads from wallmart at that.

Now a different kind riding is another story. There's a good reason why I have dual disk on my dirt bike. I did chew up pads dirt riding with v brakes pretty quick. Always stomping the brakes then grabbing the throttle over and over and over. You can also ruin pads fast if you have them contacting the rim funky.

By all means, if you have the mounts on the bike, you won't regret putting some disks on it. The guy lives in LA, so I'm assuming he'll ride more in summer than in the winter rainy season.

 

[tupp]

stay away from a lower c rating on the battery or you will kill it ..... i love how headways handle but they are pricey

Sounds like the extra money for Headways could be a worthwhile investment in peace of mind and in having options for motors with more current draw. Considering the bare Headway pack from greenbikekit.com.

for the Regen / cutout switch.. anything will work .. it just pulls a positive signal to ground so yes any form of momentary switch will work but i suggest even the cheapest from e-bikes.ca as i have been using them for over a year with no problems

I'll see if Cellman has cut-out levers that go with the controller in 10T rear wheel kit.

don’t use v-brakes ... [snip] do yourself a favour and get at worst some cheap cable drawn disk for the front at least

My Townie has ears for disk brakes on the fork, so I will probably install a disk there eventually (especially if I have to get a new front wheel).

Torque arm(s and C A can be obtained from e-bikes.ca (they made the C A in the first place)

They have a nice one that is designed for attachment to the seat stays. They're pricey, and I guess I'll need two, with the Townies aluminum dropouts.

for tires i would suggest the schwalbe Marathon Plus lineup available at any real bike shop ive been to(Little pricey as well but you cant beat the reliability 6 months and 4000miles later and no flat)

Very helpful. Will definitely look into these.

precharge circuits are unnecessary for lower voltages (i just use a large switch 300 amp ready and don’t worry about it)

It seems simple enough to add an extra lead/connector with a resistor. I would like to avoid unnecessary surges... and switches.

Thanks for the great suggestions!

 

[tupp]

You'll love the MAC 10t with a mild controller. 20 amp max so you don't kill the battery. 48v15Ah should be enough since the peak draw will be around 20amps and drop as you get to speed.

Appreciate the reassurance. If I get the more robust Headway batteries, should I go for a less "mild" controller?

Most things you are asking for you can get from Cell_man, I think.He has a lot more to offer than he lists on web site.

That is good to know. I am not familiar with how many of these components are interchangeable, so the more that I can get from one source, the better.

If you are trying to keep it under 25mph V brakes will do fine. remember there is no regen with a MAC or most any geared hub motor.

Okay. I'll look into disk brakes eventually.

Thanks for the reminder on no regen with MAC/geared. It actually works out, because I want to be able to coast freely, and regen is a little beyond the scope of my newbie build.

As for a freewheel, why only 6 when you have a 21 speed bike. 11t 7 speed freewheel should fit perfect with the Mac. Once again Paul has them. Torque arms are a must on Aluminum with a torque type motor, once again as Paul, not sure on those.

I was trying to keep things simpler, and I also had in the back of my mind that I would have more space to add a rear disk if I got a freewheel with fewer gears. Will try to see if Cellman has a freewheel, and compare his prices with others.

I seem to recall reading in a thread here that there was one particular freewheel that stood out in quality, fit and lubrication.

The range you are looking at is doable with little or no charging. But keeping it charged will help it's life cycle.

Thanks for the reminder about keeping the battery charged.

Great suggestions! Thank you!

 

[tupp]

id go with lipos to start with

I would really love to go with lipos. Unfortunately, I live in a tightly packed tinderbox of an apartment building, with three floors and 36 units. I have to keep and charge the batteries inside my apartment, so I can't take any chances with fire.

 

[tupp]

There's a relatively new supplier of the BMSBattery stuff at Geenbikekit.com. As far as we can figure out, the good staff defected from BMSBattery and set up on their own. They have almost exactly the same stuff and they're much more communicative and accurate with descriptions of what they have. So far, everybody including me is happy with what we got, so I can't comment on how they a complaint. They have a lot of nice headway batteries would go nicely with a MAC.

Extremely helpful information! I've already found a couple of items on their site.

Thanks!

 

[tupp]

Sunthing should supply a decent battery, but if you have read much here you know I keep recomending the higher priced but similar pingbattery.

Thank you for the suggestion. I am considering a headway battery pack from greenbikekit.com. I looked at the selections at pingbattery.com, and they seemed even more pricey than the headways, and the headways seem to have a higher current draw rating.

Either way, it''s big enough to handle that controller, and may even be big enough to handle that entire ride on one charge. At 20 mph, if you pedal you should see 25-30 miles of total range.

Both of these facts are good to know.

Get a decent charger, but you don't need to go with a PSU. A good metal shell 5 amp charger should do you quite well. You could carry the sunthing charger for your out on the road charges. just carry it in a knapsack so it doesn't get bounced aroudn too much. Because you have some range, you won't need a fast charger for out on the road. A 2 amp charger would put 2 ah per hour into the battery, so 8 ah worth of charging time would extend your range to 35-40 miles. Plenty for sure even with a very slow charger.

I am looking at metal shell chargers from greenbikekit.com and pingbattery.com. However, I assume that it will be easier just to go with a 5-amp charger from the same vendor as the battery back.

CA, rear torque arms, and possibly the freewheel from Grin cycles. ( ebikes ca)

I am guessing that I will need a torque arm for each side of the Townie aluminum dropouts, right?. Will check on their freewheels.

I am not sure if you can get a controller with a CA plug from cellman. If not, the stand alone CA is still worth having, I have two of em. You don't need speed or amp limiting, so the stand alone is all you want anyway.

Missing out on basic features that others take for granted has been the story of my life! For once, I'd like to overcome that story line, especially with this build.

What other extras would I have if I could hook-up the CA to the Cellman controller? Are they worth going with another controller?

You might ask about a used wheel at a bike shop, or look at a flea market for one. Usually it's the back wheel that gets really trashed, so maybe you can just buy a junk bike, and snag a perfectly good front wheel off of it. Lastly, you could buy a new wheel from any of a zillion web sources, ebay, etc.

Getting the junk bike sounds like a great ideal.

If you really want great wheels, Holmes Hobby is the expert at building hubmotor wheels. He could lace you up a great wheel using quality stuff on both wheels.

Thanks for recommendation. He has certainly made some beautiful wheels.

Doesn't the cellman kit come with ebrake levers? Personally, I've always found them something I didn't need. V brakes will work fine at 20 mph, just keep em adjusted good.

Apparently, some of the cellman kits do include the levers, but the one that I have chosen doesn't.

I have read in this forum that many feel ebrake levers are not necessary. However, I am completely new to any kind of a motorized cycle, and I imagine getting caught on the thumb throttle while I am trying to brake for a bus.

Thanks for all of the helpful info!

 

[WTN]

Those specs on the headway 15ah battery are wrong. They have a max continuous discharge of 3C - all of the headways are 3C. So max continuous in 45 amps. Which would be fine - nothing wrong there. Why do they state 150 amps max continuous. It should say 150 amps maximum 45 amps continuous.

WTN

 

[MikeFairbanks]

I built an ebike using a Trek Pure (pretty much the same as an Electra Townie) and you'll enjoy it very much. It's a very comfortable ride.

 

[nechaus]

Those specs on the headway 15ah battery are wrong. They have a max continuous discharge of 3C - all of the headways are 3C. So max continuous in 45 amps. Which would be fine - nothing wrong there. Why do they state 150 amps max continuous. It should say 150 amps maximum 45 amps continuous.

WTN

Iv tested headway & thundersky cells that can peak at huge amps with out a bms and with great voltage sag..
iv tested heaps of crap as cells rated for .5c discharge like 2.4 ah that do like 14 amps at peak, sag, get warm, and will die fast, but i guess they can actually put out rather hi amps for a short time

 

[dogman dan]

Depends on whether you are talking specified c rates, or what you can get out of em and they last c rates. I just routinely cut any specified c rate in half for pracitcal calulations.

For example, I just came back from a ride that 90% discharged some zippy 20c packs. 10 ah of it, running a 40 amp controller. So 4c. The last mile, you could really feel those packs sag as they began to hit 3.5v under load. When I pulled the pack out of the saddlebag, it was very warm. Not melty mind you, but much much warmer than body temp. Much much warmer than a normal ride where I usually stop before 80% dod.

Clearly, that last mile I was not getting 20c performance anymore. Resting, the batts were at 3.65v at the end of the ride.

Anyway, my point is, you might start the ride with a great c rate, but if you discharge the battery low enough, you can cut that c rate in half, or even a lot more towards the end of the ride.

Don't go thinking your headways will like that last mile if you pull a big controller.

 

[nechaus]

Depends on whether you are talking specified c rates, or what you can get out of em and they last c rates. I just routinely cut any specified c rate in half for pracitcal calulations.

For example, I just came back from a ride that 90% discharged some zippy 20c packs. 10 ah of it, running a 40 amp controller. So 4c. The last mile, you could really feel those packs sag as they began to hit 3.5v under load. When I pulled the pack out of the saddlebag, it was very warm. Not melty mind you, but much much warmer than body temp. Much much warmer than a normal ride where I usually stop before 80% dod.

Clearly, that last mile I was not getting 20c performance anymore. Resting, the batts were at 3.65v at the end of the ride.

Anyway, my point is, you might start the ride with a great c rate, but if you discharge the battery low enough, you can cut that c rate in half, or even a lot more towards the end of the ride.

Don't go thinking your headways will like that last mile if you pull a big controller.

your spot on really!!!

i was just trying to say, it is possible to have headways put out huge amps for a short period

 

[pdf]

On the brakes, I only use V-brakes. I've got over 5k miles on one bike and I'm only on my 3rd set of pads, with no regen. It obviously depends on your riding style. I'd love to have disc brakes, for sure, but you can make it on Vbrakes. Lipo is awesome in terms of C rate but you have to take more responsibility with it. 20A is probably enough on 48V even for moderate hills. On 72V, I can do a huge hill on 20A.

 

[nechaus]

even disc brakes run out quickly in my experiences when not using any regen
the only decent brakes i have on my bike atm are motorbike brakes, which do the job fine.



id be buying spare brake pads now so you have no down time with your ebike...

once i had no brakes and only regen.. its not the ideal situation.. seems a bit to dangerous for my liking

 

[dogman dan]

Yeah, it's clear your rides are fun! Boring commuting, and my route only having a stop every 2 miles or so, I got plenty of time out of pads on that kind of ride.

If I'm not mixed up, this guy was talking about 20 mph travel, no sweat for propely adjusted v brakes.

I went on a ride through muddy puddles one day after a rain on my dirt bike. The soil here is clay with sand in it. By the time I got home I had to adjust my disk brakes, I'd shaved away so much brake pad. It burned away so fast I thought I had a loose nut on the cable clamp. It was like I put lapping compound on my disks, all that wet grit on the rotors.

 

[e-beach]

Thank you in advance! This is a great, informative site!

I just bought a 21-speed used Electra Townie with front shocks. It needs some work, but I should be a nice, comfortable ride.

I am 5'7', 155lbs.

My longest anticipated round trip (in Los Angeles) will have three legs:
- 8 miles
3-4hours stay (charging)
- 9.5 miles
2 hours stay (charging)
- 6 miles

Fellow LAlien. Welcome! I hale for the Venice Beach area. We come in peace! :lol:

I have been eyeballing the Electra Townie's for some time. They look like good cruiser and have that great big tangle. Your idea about higher voltage / lower rpm is probably fine for the street of L.A. Not too many places around here to go 20+ mph...or at least not for long. There are plenty of stop lights, stop signs, city buses, bad drivers, pot holes, broken glass, orange cones, parked-car doors opening and impassable sidewalks to slow you down. (just to mention a few things. :lol: )

At the moment I am running 36v 15ah Headway cells. They have been getting me around the city at 20 to 30 miles per day, but they are not very punchy up the hills. The SLA's I had been running on before I went to LiFePO4's had more power up the hills. They wouldn't get me that far, but at 5C, they had more "umph" up the hills around town.

On the other hand my Headways have been very dependable even after a crash in K-town that flipped my rear tire over my head.

When I bought my batteries I also bought a 12ah charger so I can recharge fully in about 90 minutes. I carry it in a padded pouch inside my back pack when I carry it with me.

I am running V-brakes at the moment, and they lock up my wheels just fine when I need to. In fact, just tonight I was going WOT at 20 mph with full right-of-way and some idiot cager pulled a left cross in front of me forcing me to lock up my back wheel and fish-tale to safty. (and yes Dogman I have been practicing that move..thank YOU very much! 8) )

Me and my bike routinely roll at about 300 lbs.

My only suggestion to you is to go with a company or companys that speak your language/s because when you need technical help, it sure is nice to be able to communicate.

 

[tupp]

Fellow LAlien. Welcome! I hale for the Venice Beach area. We come in peace! :lol:

Ha, ha! I am in Hollywood.

I have been eyeballing the Electra Townie's for some time. They look like good cruiser and have that great big tangle.

You can get them for about $250-$300 here. Most of them seem to be for sale in Orange County or somewhere deep inland.

Your idea about higher voltage / lower rpm is probably fine for the street of L.A. [snip] There are plenty of stop lights, stop signs, city buses, bad drivers, pot holes, broken glass, orange cones, parked-car doors opening and impassable sidewalks to slow you down. (just to mention a few things. :lol: )

Mostly afraid of the bad/malicious drivers and the parked-car doors opening.

At the moment I am running 36v 15ah Headway cells. They have been getting me around the city at 20 to 30 miles per day, but they are not very punchy up the hills.

I think I will go with Headway cells, too. Where did you get yours?

On the other hand my Headways have been very dependable even after a crash in K-town that flipped my rear tire over my head.

Hope you and your ride are okay!

When I bought my batteries I also bought a 12ah charger so I can recharge fully in about 90 minutes.

Where did you get that charger and how much did it cost?

I am running V-brakes at the moment, and they lock up my wheels just fine when I need to. In fact, just tonight I was going WOT at 20 mph with full right-of-way and some idiot cager pulled a left cross in front of me forcing me to lock up my back wheel and fish-tale to safty. (and yes Dogman I have been practicing that move..thank YOU very much! 8) )

What happened? Please explain in simple terms for someone like me who is uninformed.

My only suggestion to you is to go with a company or companys that speak your language/s because when you need technical help, it sure is nice to be able to communicate.

Finding a good vendor seems to be half the battle. Who are the vendors that you use?

Thanks!

 

[dogman dan]

Basicly, there are two kinds of stops on a two wheeler.

One is the stop where you have room and time to come to a stop, or do your braking and enter a curve. In this case, the front brake is far more effective because of the weight transfer to the front wheel. You won't need to lock up either wheel, but you will want to apply both brakes firmly.

The other is a panic stop, perhaps a car just right turned into your path entering a parking lot, or maybe you were zinging along and the car ahead stopped while you were not looking. Now you are screwed, there is no way on earth you will stop in time. What to do?

In this case, if you lock up the front tire, you will lose all ability to steer. You need to slow down, but stopping is not going to happen in time. In this case, brake with the front still, but only lock up the rear tire. With the rear tire locked, it's still possible to steer a skid. I believe you can shorten your stopping distance ( or maybe it's lenghten your avaliable stopping distance) by skidding in a zig zag, trying to turn away from the car instead of just braking and hoping in a straight line. Sometimes you can skid one way, then the other, and end up between the cars at a stop light. A few times, I've ended up still hitting the car, but instead of hitting it head first, I stopped myself with a foot on the door panel of the car that cut me off.

I tend to set up my brakes so the same grab on the brakes applies just a little bit less pressure on the front, so in a panic stop, the back will tend to lock up before the front.

 

[e-beach]

Mostly afraid of the bad/malicious drivers and the parked-car doors opening.

And there is plenty of that to worry about around here. You will see it all once you are up and rolling.

I think I will go with Headway cells, too. Where did you get yours?

I went with Headway Headquarters in Washington State. Got most of my headway set up from them including the battery charger. I went with the expensive fast 12ah battery charger so I can charge quickly when I need to. If you go with them consider the kit. I think it is cheaper then getting everything separate. Check their website for pricing.

But my opinion of them is still mixed. Jim the tech guy is great if you can get a-hold of him. But he is like a genie in a bottle, sometimes you just can't get him to appear when you need him. The "accountant" on the other hand is all about paperwork and policy. If it isn't right she will force you to print out an RMA, write it up, package it in the original packaging, mail it to them at your own expense, wait for it to get there while your bike is non-functioning and maybe....maybe they will refund your money, or replace you item, maybe, minus a restocking fee or not as per her policy. Be sure to read her policy's like you have nothing better to do. :lol:

Take a look at this thread to get an idea of what I had to go through when they shipped my charger to me set-up as a Lipo charger instead of a LiFePO4 charger. No instructions were included with the charger.

http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=42567

Then think about the two week wait plus the whole "policy" headache if one were to go through the account's policy requirements to fix something that wasn't the buyers mistake in the first place. Either way it was a big PITA until Jim came through with the answer.

That being said, my Headways have been very durable and dependable so far. I believe they are the easiest pack you can build yourself. Everything is modular. If you have never built an ebike battery pack and want to build one, then it is a good place to start to fully understand how to do one.

On the down side they are not as good on the hills as other batteries, like my lead batteries were. I have to peddle on the hills more now then I did with my SLA's but L.A. isn't all that hilly so it is not a big problem. If I went with a higher amp controller, or even thicker wiring from my controller to my motor, I could probably get more out of them, but they really aren't that "punchy".

Hope you and your ride are okay!

Getting there. Five weeks later my wrists are still stiff, but everything else is OK. What it did do is get me to change my ridding style as per the suggestions of members on this board.

Do what Dogman says if you are going with V-brakes. And learn to ride as he says cause it can save you a lot of pain!

Hope this helps!