E-racer
1 kW
Yes! I should be getting mine in a couple days. Can't wait to lace it up and start tuning.
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Nuvinci developer kits for cheap
- Thread starter johnrobholmes
- Start date
StudEbiker
100 kW
dumbass said:
After using one of these for about 500 miles, I have re-read this thread and have decided that this one single post pretty much nails the biggest issue with these dev-kits. 10mph on the flats is not the same as 10mph up a steep hill.
Going up hills I feel that I always want to turn the gear ratio down because it just feels like it is overworking the motor like crazy to go up the hill and I know I am losing a lot to heat.
Not only that, I am just a drive by feel kind of guy to begin with and I think I would enjoy the Nuvinci experience more if I had direct control over the gear ratio. I think after driving for awhile I could get a good feel for where it needs to be, now it's like I have to send a new shift pattern to the controller every time I want to try a different gear ratio at a different speed!
I love Bertie's manual control, but I don't have the skills to build something like that.
I am wondering if any of you have set set up 0-5v pots to adjust the gearing manually?
If you have done this, would you mind posting your experiences with this method and possibly pictures of how/where you mounted your pot for ease of adjustment?
Rassy
1 MW
I'm sure you all read about being able to download two shift patterns with the stock kit. Then you just add a toggle switch between the two wires of one of the supplied pigtails.
I tried it and it worked, but I'm not using it because a single shift pattern is working good for me, probably because mine is set up for lower power and speeds then most. I currently have 11 distinct gear ratios between about 4 and 18 mph.
StudEbiker
100 kW
I tried the toggle switch initially, but then I took it off. I can hook it up again, but I still think direct control where I can hear and feel the motor and gauge when it is in it's happy place is going to be the best option here.
I am thinking of putting a pot on the left handle bar that can be adjusted with my thumb and index finger while my hand is wrapped around the bar is the best option. I still need to come up with a 5v source though.
I am thinking of putting a pot on the left handle bar that can be adjusted with my thumb and index finger while my hand is wrapped around the bar is the best option. I still need to come up with a 5v source though.
dumbass
100 kW
StudEbiker: "After using one of these for about 500 miles, I have re-read this thread and have decided that this one single post pretty much nails the biggest issue with these dev-kits. 10mph on the flats is not the same as 10mph up a steep hill."
I am thinking of putting a pot on the left handle bar that can be adjusted with my thumb and index finger while my hand is wrapped around the bar is the best option. I still need to come up with a 5v source though.
Holly Fruit Loops, I actually got something right for a change? I haven't install my new kit yet and likely won't get around to it for sometime yet. But I gotta agree I want some kind of a semi manual/automatic setup. I was hope to have some kind of normal auto program with a manual override.
Your idea of using a simple 0-5v would be great if it would work. What about using a a half twist hall and remove the return spring? This would allow it to more or less stay at a given setting or adjusted as needed. You can get handlebar on/off switches for under 10 buck to select man/auto. The problem I see is knowing where the shift is at any given time weather on manual or auto. I know on my old 171 I tend to glance at the worm now and then just to know where I am in the range.
Bob
I am thinking of putting a pot on the left handle bar that can be adjusted with my thumb and index finger while my hand is wrapped around the bar is the best option. I still need to come up with a 5v source though.
Holly Fruit Loops, I actually got something right for a change? I haven't install my new kit yet and likely won't get around to it for sometime yet. But I gotta agree I want some kind of a semi manual/automatic setup. I was hope to have some kind of normal auto program with a manual override.
Your idea of using a simple 0-5v would be great if it would work. What about using a a half twist hall and remove the return spring? This would allow it to more or less stay at a given setting or adjusted as needed. You can get handlebar on/off switches for under 10 buck to select man/auto. The problem I see is knowing where the shift is at any given time weather on manual or auto. I know on my old 171 I tend to glance at the worm now and then just to know where I am in the range.
Bob
StudEbiker
100 kW
A 0-5v pot will work according to the Fallbrook manual. It gives the setup for using it.
I don't have a CA, only a Turnigy watt meter, so I can't monitor my amps while riding. You are correct that it is important to know where you in the gearing. I really can't tell when I am in a poor gear because (since I have a mid-drive before the Nuvinci), but I can tell when the motor is happy and when it is not as happy.
Hopefully with a pot, I will be able to keep it happy more often. The biggest issue is climbing. I can see afer a ride that the voltage is sagging way more than it should and that's because it just isn't in a very good gear for climbing. It uses crazy watts for hill climbing which kills efficiency.
It seems like with the Nuvinci being in autoshift mode it's not much better than having a hub motor.
Well, with less than 24hours of working on this idea here is what I have so far. This is just trial fitting.
I'm not even sure what the silver part is, but it was pretty close to the picture I had in my head of what I needed. I stopped by the LBS and it was something he pulled out of the trash. Something off of an old road bike I think.
I don't have a CA, only a Turnigy watt meter, so I can't monitor my amps while riding. You are correct that it is important to know where you in the gearing. I really can't tell when I am in a poor gear because (since I have a mid-drive before the Nuvinci), but I can tell when the motor is happy and when it is not as happy.
Hopefully with a pot, I will be able to keep it happy more often. The biggest issue is climbing. I can see afer a ride that the voltage is sagging way more than it should and that's because it just isn't in a very good gear for climbing. It uses crazy watts for hill climbing which kills efficiency.
It seems like with the Nuvinci being in autoshift mode it's not much better than having a hub motor.
Well, with less than 24hours of working on this idea here is what I have so far. This is just trial fitting.
I'm not even sure what the silver part is, but it was pretty close to the picture I had in my head of what I needed. I stopped by the LBS and it was something he pulled out of the trash. Something off of an old road bike I think.
dumbass
100 kW
StudEbiker, I like it. It's simple and looks very handy and easy to use. Please pardon my lack of education on this but even though I've had this thing for maybe 6 months I have to admit I haven't even gotton around to reading my manual. Does it go to a given posision based on the set voltage? For example "0" being lowest range and "+5v" being max range? If that's the case then you have a perfect way for shifting it manually and I wouldn't even bother setting up the auto program.
Have you actually done any testing yet?
Bob
Have you actually done any testing yet?
Bob
E-racer
1 kW
I'm running about 5kw into my dev kit and the full auto function is a dream. It is incredible what that transmission can do. My bike does 55mph on gps and accelerates plenty fast. This would be impossible without the NV. I don't understand the issues you guys are having with the auto shift. 10 mph on flat isn't the same as 10mph on a hill...? what does that mean? At 10 mph, hill or not the NV is in the optimal ratio for me. If you are saying that you want the motor to be revving higher while going up the hill you should just set your NV cadence speed to that higher rpm point. I am a die hard manual transmission guy but on an E-bike this fully auto mode takes care of everything. furthermore, I do not believe a stepped "manual" approach will ever be faster (accel or top speed) than a properly tuned full auto mode.
StudEbiker
100 kW
dumbass said:
Well, I played around with it some today, but I encountered a problem. Making a 0-5v switch. I tried that pot in the picture which is a 25ohm, but I couldn't get the voltage down to zero with that, so I got a 5k pot. That got the voltage down to around 1v, but not down to zero. See, I'm electronics dumb, so this would probably be something super easy for many on here, but will be very tough for me. Any suggestions anyone? Please.
You are correct, 0v would be low gear and 5v would be high gear. One thing about doing it this way though is there is no switching to auto-shift on the fly. You have to shoot a new program to the controller each time you want to switch from auto to manual.
E-racer said:
You're in GA right? :wink:
What kind of hills do have around there? I've been to GA, not terribly hilly as I recall.
So you're running 5kw on a coastal plain and you can't imagine why we would want to shift going uphill? :wink:
I can see why you would feel that way, but trust me, going up a 15% grade needs an entirely different gear than going on the flat especially when I'm running rather low power at 1300w.
Rassy
1 MW
E-racer wrote:
I have a lot of hills, and the great thing about the auto shift NuVinci is that it is always in the right gear for both me and the motor. When going from a steep down hill to a steep uphill I would either start pedaling when the trike was still moving too fast for the gear I was in, or I would start pedaling in too high of a gear and have to start shifting down. Even when slowing for a hard corner on the flat it's nice to be able to just continue pedaling as I come out of the corner and always be in the right gear.
Be aware though that mine is a low speed low power setup that was designed to allow going up a 25% grade (at about 5 MPH), but will also top out at about 20 MPH on the level, more with a little pedaling. Max Watts is about 1,150 measured at the battery.
Since you get your best torque when an electric motor is at low RPM, some of you guys may be trying to duplicate the acceleration you experienced with a hub motor. IMHO you won't get the same acceleration using the NuVinci unless you set your shift points at too high a gear ratio, which results in lugging your motor when you hit a hill, because you will be in too high a gear. Since it is easy to have two shift maps controlled with a toggle switch, you could make a "proper" shift map for hills and relaxed riding, etc. and a second map that puts you in the highest gear ratio from the get go for hard acceleration on the flats. On my setup both maps would give the same performance once I reached about 17 MPH since thats where I shift into the highest gear ratio.
I do tend to agree with E-racer here. My cadence is always between 60 and 70 RPM which means that my slow wind 6 X 10 motor is always between 180 and 210 RPM. So if I want to stay at 10 MPH on the flat I just back off on the throttle, or even just pedal. If I want to stay at 10 MPH going up an 8% grade I just push more amps through (by increasing up to WOT). But in either case, when using the motor, it is in it's happy RPM range. I wouldn't want to lug the motor down even at 10 MPH on the flat, nor would I want the cadence to be higher than I am comfortable with.
I have a lot of hills, and the great thing about the auto shift NuVinci is that it is always in the right gear for both me and the motor. When going from a steep down hill to a steep uphill I would either start pedaling when the trike was still moving too fast for the gear I was in, or I would start pedaling in too high of a gear and have to start shifting down. Even when slowing for a hard corner on the flat it's nice to be able to just continue pedaling as I come out of the corner and always be in the right gear.
Be aware though that mine is a low speed low power setup that was designed to allow going up a 25% grade (at about 5 MPH), but will also top out at about 20 MPH on the level, more with a little pedaling. Max Watts is about 1,150 measured at the battery.
Since you get your best torque when an electric motor is at low RPM, some of you guys may be trying to duplicate the acceleration you experienced with a hub motor. IMHO you won't get the same acceleration using the NuVinci unless you set your shift points at too high a gear ratio, which results in lugging your motor when you hit a hill, because you will be in too high a gear. Since it is easy to have two shift maps controlled with a toggle switch, you could make a "proper" shift map for hills and relaxed riding, etc. and a second map that puts you in the highest gear ratio from the get go for hard acceleration on the flats. On my setup both maps would give the same performance once I reached about 17 MPH since thats where I shift into the highest gear ratio.
StudEbiker
100 kW
Rassy said:
You're running two chains to the NV right?
My setup uses one chain to the NV.
I understand what you say about backing off the throttle on the flat to lower speed, but when I start to climb, the motor just lugs like crazy and even though I can't see the watt meter I know the amps start spiking. If I could turn the gear ratio down then the motor could start turning faster.
Lemme ask you a question Rassy. What kind of efficiency are you getting, because about the best I can do without being seriously conservative with the throttle is 30wh/mi.. I know that's kind of the accepted standard calculation, but I think if I could keep the amps down I would improve my efficiency a bunch.
you're last paragraph is very interesting to me and describes what I think might be the problem. I could have my shift points set at too high a ratio. I will look at that again and maybe that's it, because I certainly feel like I am stressing components when I hit a hill. So to me, it's I can keep sending shift maps to the NV, or I can just manually adjust it with a pot. I'll take a close look at your shift map and see how I might be able to adjust mine.
I was thinking of starting a thread where everyone can post their shift maps so we can get some reference points for what works with different powered setups.
I don't understand being puzzled about 10mph on the flat being different than 10mph going uphill.
Consider this.
Think about a big hill you climb. If you were riding a pedal bike (no motor) would you climb that hill at 10mph in the same gear you would ride on the flats at 10mph? I wouldn't. The Nuvinci in auto-shift mode does just that though.
ashwright
100 mW
StudEbiker said:
The problem with this statement, is I wouldn't ride at 10mph on the flat.
Or another way, for the same amount of effort of going 10mph up a hill, I would be going a lot faster on the flat.
I have a low power bike (200W nominal, 500W max), I have my NV set at 60rpm, even though the motor does about 70-75rpm on the flat.
I have one step hill on my way home. (a 30m high cliff), and the motor never hits the max power draw. The NV always down shifts to a lower gear before the motor starts drawing a lot of power. Or another way, flat or hill, the motor is always sitting about 200-350W power. The difference is the speed I am travelling.
If I wanted to go 10kph on a flat, I have to turn the motor down.
StudEbiker
100 kW
Well, I guess I might just have my ratios set too high. Of course if I would have had some manual control I would have figured that out pretty quick. My instinct has been that my gearing was too high for the hills that I am climbing.
I'll play with it some more.
I'll play with it some more.
Rassy
1 MW
Easy one first. No, I have only one long chain on the entire trike. The motor sits between the NuVinci and the crank and helps pull the chain. Because the motor has a 16T cog and the crank has a 48T chainwheel, the motor RPM is always exactly three times the cadence RPM.
Just a note here about having a better "feel" for everything when you are in control of the shift points. With this exact same set-up, but with the 8 speed Nexus instead of the NuVinci, I "felt" my cadence was too fast so I changed to a 56T chainwheel. With the Nexus this felt much better, but when the NuVinci was installed with a 60 to 70 cadence RPM map, the motor didn't have enough torque to reach the shift points without serious pedaling added, after about 12 MPH. When I changed the shift map for a 50 to 60 cadence RPM the motor was able to pull the trike into high gear on level ground. So I went back to the 48T chainwheel and a 60 to 70 cadence RPM map and now both the motor and I are happy.
My conclusion from the above is that I was running in too high of a gear with the Nexus most of the time, which gave me more torque from the motor, a slower cadence, and a feel more like the hub motors I was used to. I normally just left my recumbent bike in a very high gear and let the hub motor make up the difference.
As far as efficiency, I haven't had enough riding in to make any conclusions. IMHO, this is a tough area because there are so many variables. I weigh over 200 pounds, the trike probably weighs close to 100 pounds and has 3 wheels on the ground, the terrain where I ride is always up and down (I use about 50 WH on the last 1/3 mile of every ride). My best guess right now is about 30 WH per mile at WOT on level ground, but I don't have any place that is level enough to reach and hold 20 MPH long enough to get an accurate reading. I think I can get under 20 WH per mile when riding with my pedal only buds, but the variables here are how far we plan to ride, how fast we ride, and thus how much effort I contribute.
E-racer
1 kW
Does anyone know the absolute MAX volt into the NV controller. I want to know if i can hook it to 14s 58.8 volt... will it fry?
Rassy
1 MW
I was real tempted to try my 48V pings, but hot off the charger they would also be in the high 50's, so I chickened out and used the little 12V converter I already had. Now that they have apparently dropped their support, I would be careful not to ruin the controller. (It does appear that their forum pages and technical pages for the Developer's Kit are available again.)
E-racer
1 kW
Rassy said:
Grrr. I agree I do not want to ruin the controller. Mine is extremely hard to get to. Could you possibly tell me the part number of the voltage regulator if yours is somewhere visible.
Rassy
1 MW
Here's the one I am using. The output is somewhere between 11V and 12V and it's working good on the NuVinci controller. I read about someone having trouble shifting under load when the voltage was too low, but mine seems to work okay. I am using a low power system, toping out at about 1150 Watts, but it shifts down okay on a 15% grade and shifts up without having to get off the throttle.
http://www.scooterpartscatalog.com/48v-electric-converter-171-19.html
There are plenty of other dc-dc converters, but I like this one because it's just a simple 3 wire hookup. Common ground, high voltage positive input, and 12 volt positive output.
Edit: Here's another one that was referenced in a thread a couple of days ago, but costs half as much, but also ships from China for more than the converter:
http://www.vendio.com/stores/rcfuther/item/golf-push-pull-golf-carts/golf-cart-dc-dc-converter-redu/lid=10715303
http://www.scooterpartscatalog.com/48v-electric-converter-171-19.html
There are plenty of other dc-dc converters, but I like this one because it's just a simple 3 wire hookup. Common ground, high voltage positive input, and 12 volt positive output.
Edit: Here's another one that was referenced in a thread a couple of days ago, but costs half as much, but also ships from China for more than the converter:
http://www.vendio.com/stores/rcfuther/item/golf-push-pull-golf-carts/golf-cart-dc-dc-converter-redu/lid=10715303
E-racer
1 kW
Yea, I need 12v for my tail light anyway. I am concerned about running the NV controller on 12v though. I am running about 3X that power and the up shift under load is crucial. I really want to run 14s with a lower setting on my controller current limiter. This will make for less voltage/output power sag as the battery depletes. I've got 48v H3 bulbs in my headlights I wonder how they are going to like 58v... hmm.
wojtek
100 kW
i asked the very same question but asking about 44v pack, here is the answer..
basically 48v is the max nominal V so you should be also fine..
btw, yes it would be great to create a thread and share the tables with each other!
On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 5:57 PM, Rob Sherlock <rsherlock@fallbrooktech.com> wrote:
Hello,
44V battery pack will work fine. The voltage range listed is nominal voltage, which will vary above and below nominal when fully charged or fully depleted.
Robert B. Sherlock
Retail & Product Support Manager - Bicycle Products
-----------------------------------------------------------------
505 Cypress Creek Road, Suite C, Cedar Park, TX 78613
Tel: 512. 279.6231 Cell: 512. 627.4829 Fax: 512. 267.0159 Skype: rsherlock1
www.nuvinci.com
basically 48v is the max nominal V so you should be also fine..
btw, yes it would be great to create a thread and share the tables with each other!
On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 5:57 PM, Rob Sherlock <rsherlock@fallbrooktech.com> wrote:
Hello,
44V battery pack will work fine. The voltage range listed is nominal voltage, which will vary above and below nominal when fully charged or fully depleted.
Robert B. Sherlock
Retail & Product Support Manager - Bicycle Products
-----------------------------------------------------------------
505 Cypress Creek Road, Suite C, Cedar Park, TX 78613
Tel: 512. 279.6231 Cell: 512. 627.4829 Fax: 512. 267.0159 Skype: rsherlock1
www.nuvinci.com
Idontwanttopedal
1 kW
I'm useless at mapping this thing lol
E-racer
1 kW
Idontwanttopedal said:
All you do is type in your target motor RPM and copy and paste the values... it cant be much easier.
Idontwanttopedal
1 kW
Did never seems right
Idontwanttopedal
1 kW
Plus don't really know rpm. It a 1200 cyclone
E-racer
1 kW
Be systematic... What is the kv of your motor? what is your system voltage? Take the free spin rpm (kv*volts) divide that in half and start there. Then make a tune +200 and -200 and see which is faster. Go that direction until it is slower. I just setup a couple chalk lines on the road and did WOT acceleration runs. I measured the elapse time between start and when I crossed the second line. Just be sure never to brake before the second line or that run is worthless. Lastly i found that toward the top o f the speed range it is more advantageous to let the motor begin to wind out. For example on my bike the CVP holds 4200 RPM up to 32 mph then it begins to rev higher as it approaches 55mph and 5500 motor rpm.
