Ok, I have to beg for help... Or "The reason to not by 3 ebikes at 4 in the afternoon after being up for 36 hours" My Jetson story.

DaLanMan

DaLanMan

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Ok, to background: I am an independent contractor, which means I don't report to anyone, but my boss still sucks. It leads to having weird work stories.

I knew there was an auction coming on due to an alarm I had set (no clue when) and no idea why I wanted to look at it...

So I bought 3 Jetson e-bikes.
2 of the bolt pro JBLTP-BLK-OB
1 J10 ‎JJ8-BLK

This is where I learn a few things. Jetson sold a lot of stuff at Costco.
Jetson seems to have nearly killed the company with Costco return issues.
All of this is speculation. i literally am making WAG's on it.

I also think they don't make their own products.

For unknown reasons, no bikes had seats.
2 of them had no peddles.

Peddles ordered, arrived, bolted on no problem.
Seats... ::shakes head:: asked the suppport folks about what size seat riser was needed, got info, ordered. No fit. try again, ask, order... no fit. Break out measuring tools 30.4mm I had never heard of this size. Ordered, installed... almost perfect, few minutes in fab mode and a shim is installed and a brace to secure the outer portion of the crappy aluminum post holder.

Now i have seats... Time to look a little deeper.

Do I dare trust the guts? I see that the hub motors these all use are fair standard. So I am comfortable letting my son use one.
Should I dump and rebuild the batteries? cheeze whiz and cracker batteries have lead to a lot of problems I have seen, and smelly out gassing was a common reason these were returned to costco.

Now, chargers. I have a battery pack currently charging off my monster desk power unit that i have in the past used to power a test unit for induction melting of gold (I eventually bought one, but not before blowing like 5k playing with "cheaper" options and lighting a few boards on fire) Because I get the "approved" charger for these babies.. and it doesn't fit (Amazon is gonna hate me).
Return it, order the next one they supply info on.. same same. (also they offered a 36v charger where from what I see it should be at minimum 40v to charge these? I have no idea at this point)

So, I break out measuring devices, few minutes turning Data into products and I dig up this:

Charger that I think will work

That earlier I don't think they make these... The data I am given when I contact support appears to be random gibberish that may or may not have anything to do with Reality. They did not want to admit that they had made the J8, in fact they were astonished I found a model number. literally everything they have told me is like they looked up "what part goes on this part of an ebike" and gave me the #1 answer. I deal with shoddy support all the time, I have *NEVER* had a company not even know what bloody units they sold.

So, if I missed any crucial data points please advise, hell, If I gave all the data and you think I am an idiot.. please advise...

Oh, and for the record. 150 bucks for all three bikes, a solar battery/lighting setup for the front garden and 4 200w solar panels that were just too good to pass up. I love/hate on-line auctions...

--L
 
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There's a few threads (and more posts) about the brand around here, if they're useful (haven't looked at them in a while).

Regarding whether they made them...I'd guess they didn't--most companies like this don't make anything, they just bought stuff from a company that makes them for other companies and had them put their name on it. Most of these places don't document what they had built for them at all, and even if they do they certainly don't keep spare parts around, so when you have a problem even under warranty (if there is one) they just send whatever the currently-available part is, even if it doesn't fit or work with your system (and they don't care).

There are probably a few companies different than this but couldn't give you any names, except *possibly* Radpower (not sure of them, either, but more good posts than bad that I can recall).


Regarding the charger, you'll probably have to just add the proper connector to whatever good charger you choose..what does the battery list on it for charging current, and voltage? Or what does the original charger spec say, either on the charger if you have one, or on any sales site pages you can find for the model you have (even something on archive.org)? If there's no data, then as long as you know what battery type and number of series cells it is, you can get a charger for that final voltage, capable of no more than 2A charging current (should be safe for the types of batteries most of the cheap bikes come with).
 
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Yeah,... as for that support... yeah, we are gonna need you to just stop asking...
::wanders off in search of TPS reports::

AW, I love your posts, but keep in mind, these bikes were bought at auction... for dirt and magic beans. I am not upset with it, value per dollar is high.. but I had to hunt up seat poles.

See in some families this would be upsetting, in mine I put on a hat and say we are gonna go do dumb things and everyone gets excited...

If a Ranger ever asks you if you want to go do something stupid, I have a bit of advice, check your insurance policy for possible violations... and the bloody go, for professional causers of mischief are more fun on a weekend than an entire carnival of killer clowns...

So yeah, it has been an eye opener, as a new industry (and yes, it is new) we are still in the teething period, so anything you buy pre-built from a vendor is gonna have some dodgey-ness to it. I get that. Which is why I *NEVER* would pay 500 for something like this hoping it only had acceptible dodgey ness. 50 bucks though? Lemme get my hat.

So I am hoping the battery charger I ordered meets the spec ::double checks:: ayup, 42v @ 2a. I know I have a plug that will work, and I have soldering irons and tape and stuff...

Ignore the large still in the corner of the garage, it is entirely an art piece...

Yes, that is a vat of aqua regia, just leave the lid on, the fumes will rust everything.

And most importantly... All the red boxes labeled "DO NOT OPEN" will require you double checking your insurance...

Thanks for the advice.
 
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DaLanMan said:
AW, I love your posts, but keep in mind, these bikes were bought at auction... for dirt and magic beans. I am not upset with it, value per dollar is high..
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I acquire stuff like this every so often (usually from goodwill/etc), simply because it's so cheap that even though I *know* it isn't going to do the job it says it will do or was meant to do, or it won't be complete, or (whatever), it's still cheaper than buying up teh individual parts, and I know that I can use enough of those parts to make it worth getting. ;)

Like my recent Aliexpress sale purchases of various robotics / etc bits (largely for the Snuggles, The Wolf project, some for my music studio stuff, some for the 3D printer, some for random other things) --most of them are probably going to be useful and do what they say, so the few that don't won't make much of a dent in the savings total, and may still be useful in some other way. (so far only one thing is actually just plain failed outright).


But...most people aren't so sanguine about these things, so I post my realistic (pessimistic to most people) viewpoints, just in case they'll help them avoid such issues. ;)
 
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For the first charge in who knows how long I picked up a universal charger, it is a bit lower power but buddy of mines wife is a EE specialising in power delivery systems, I am gonna make an eWAG and say her MIT credentials make my journalism major look pathetic...

So I got this, It is pretty cool and the image is *NOT* correct, it actually has 5 tips on it. and since I announced I was gonna do some playing with power delivery, I have had every kid and his dad stopping by to ask me if I can upgrade their nasty Costco/walmart/whatgevs e-ride. I need to find a shop to refer people to In Cali. I am more than willing to throw down with Fabbing... But upgrading is a whole other kettle of fish.
(hint, anyone know a shop in Cantral Cali/sac/SFBay ?!?)

After the first over-night charge I am gonna have him spin it for a bit and hook it up to my bench power supply, It caps it's output at like 600v and pushing the other way caps at 220 amps (not both at the same time, it is a benchtop, not a battle barge! and log it to see how the batteries act.. I have no idea what I am saying, I am literally just reporting the much knowey words of Smart Girl EE.
 
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DaLanMan said:
After the first over-night charge
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Doesn't need charging overnight, 4 hours max it should take to charge the battery. If the charger led light doesn't turn green after 4 or 5 hours on the charger something is wrong with the battery, Safer to charge the battery while you can check on it.
Is the battery a new one or is a used one?
later floyd
 
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Yes and yes, while I am not exactly well schooled in electronics, I do enough of it to pick up a $3500 bench power supply. I have always been the idiot child in the companies I have worked for... Not because I am normally an idiot child, I have just worked with some amazing people, want to get motivated to do better? work in a company of 10 people and be the ONLY one who did not go to MIT instead.. jumped out of planes and kicked in doors...
 
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Oh I would, like I said, I am the guy trhey ask to do things that they know are stupid but might still work.

I have in fact used a frisbee to kick open a stuck buzz bar unit on a live 2.2Mw gen like upline connector, took about 20 tries but it eventually kicked over, hell of a light show, I think in the dark of night I will still see the 12' jacobs ladder effect...

I am uber careful with things my kiddo will be involved with. I was trimming plastic sheet for use with our plastic welder rig... because some idiot used up the last of the sticks and forgot to order more ::eyes shift a bit:: dumb person.. So anyhow, the plastic jams in the saw and kicks back. My son was in the garage so I had safety first level safety gear, even buster out a push stick.

THe jaw gripped and tossed the 6" bit of plastic back so hard it shattered the push stick in my hand, and ripped one of the carbide teeth ends off the saw blade. If I had been using my hand, I think it may have lead to slightly slower typing speeds... I am fairly certain I can type with my nose and I know I can do it one handed..

Scared the piddles out of me.
 
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Is the battery a 10s 36V Battery? That was the charger linked in a previous post was for. 42V max
Later floyd
 
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so the chargers that were purchased... and returned were literally all the ones that Jetson suggested (minus the oddly not pushed on me 400 dollar one that I could literally not find at the site they sent me to)

supposedly (per the guy who thus far has never been right) the controller on the battery pack will allow it to take a charge from a higher voltage....

I am starting to think the dude I have talked to is a bit touched.

In any case, I have abandoned using the plug they provided, it is like 3mm across with a 1mm pin in the center and I own 5 or so universal kits. I could not find anything that would fit it. So, in a fit of "I want this done" yanked the old barrel adapted out and have ordered a replacement, Which I will then make a multi-tap to single input adapter and bobs yer uncle.

The other 2 Jetson bikes have been a cakewalk... if your cake inexplicably had gobs of what I truly hope are bearing/axel grease...

just gooming them off took like 20 paper towels, and that stack gained 7oz in the process...

Some day I am gonna do something normal.
 
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DaLanMan said:
so the chargers that were purchased... and returned were literally all the ones that Jetson suggested (minus the oddly not pushed on me 400 dollar one that I could literally not find at the site they sent me to)
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If I were going to buy a charger that expensive, I'd just get another Satiator (the 72v version, to do the things my 48v version can't):

Satiator, High Voltage Model (5A max)

Cycle Satiator Universal Programmable Battery Charger, 72V 5A model, plus Optional Programming and Adapter Cable. Also Available on Amazon for US customers Full Product Information Page
ebikes.ca ebikes.ca




DaLanMan said:
supposedly (per the guy who thus far has never been right) the controller on the battery pack will allow it to take a charge from a higher voltage....
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You can always use a higher voltage charger on a battery than it's intended to charge to...but:

--if the voltage is higher than the FETs in teh BMS can handle, then as soon as they turn off they may fail, and they usually fail shorted, which means it's now stuck on, and the BMS can no longer protect the cells, so they will then overcharge.

If the voltage divided by the cell series count is higher than the cells can handle without damage, and the above happens, or the pack doesn't have a BMS, or it's charged thru the discharge port instead of charge port (if they're separate), then the cells will be overcharged by whatever amount. What damage that will do to them, and whether it will increase the fire risk, won't be known until something bad actually happens (which you can't really predict if/when).

If they're pouch cells vs cylindrical, an overcharge will probably cause them to swell and you'll be able to see this failure mode and avoid using cells damaged this way. Cylindricals may not show you any symptoms of their internal damage until something really bad goes wrong. :/


The "controller" on the battery pack is just a BMS (battery management system), and those can't convert anything, they only turn the input (or output) on or off in response to whatever limits it has setup in it, usually at the cell level. it's a pretty crude control and is only there as a last-ditch protective device.

The first line of defense against damage or failure is correctly-operating charging and discharging devices that match the battery's limits and capabilities. (meaning, the right charge voltage and current, and a motor controller with lower current limit than the battery can handle).



DaLanMan said:
Some day I am gonna do something normal.
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Well, that doesn't sound like very much fun. :/
 
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A photo of your battery packs charge port? maybe measure it. 36V 10s batteries use a 42V charger could that be what the support person meant?
DaLanMan said:
supposedly (per the guy who thus far has never been right) the controller on the battery pack will allow it to take a charge from a higher voltage....
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A photo of any printing on the battery would help.
Later floyd
 
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I don't have a pic handy, but I did pull the port. I ordered a new one (standard size) after much kerfuffel the ID of the barrel jack is 2.5mm (yep, the same size as the pins in some ports. The pin is 1.12mm. I looked long and hard, I called not one but 2 EE's that owe me a favor or three...

none of us could source a replacement barrel. So... New plan.

I am putting the same jack on it that everything else is using, and having sent images, diagrams, manuals etc to people smarter than myself (ya'all included) I have come to teh conclusion that these people should not be allowed to sell roller skates.

I am switching out from el Rando port of no history or value, to the port that is in use in more e-bikes that I have seen, and well, the 2 other jetsons I have here.

Mainly because of a san check. I also ordered a 3 pin plug because I have some theory about multiple batteries drifting around the back of me head.

So one of these will be installed tomorrow.
Standard Barrel

or

The suggested solution from my friend that makes power bus solutions.

The hole it goes into is a standard 11mm port (I am told it is standard I love phrases I can blithely repeat and sound smart)

I charged it courtesy of a couple standard alligator clips, a bit of tape and a couple helping hands to hold everyone snug,

Power feed dropped off after 6 hours (it waffled on and off, I have seen that before with battery packs, I assume it would have eventually ruined the cels. Not a good bat manager in there.

So, near future solutions, re-build the pack, or more likely build a new one, then gut this one and diagnose it out.

SSo, back to playing with the spot welder and seeing if ZI can increase the assembly speed.
 
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DaLanMan said:
these people should not be allowed to sell roller skates.
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Love this, it says so much about "merchandise" these days...
DaLanMan said:
Power feed dropped off after 6 hours (it waffled on and off
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Could this also be a fully charged battery? (despite the alligators/tape/helping hands connections)
DaLanMan said:
to the port that is in use in more e-bikes
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Good idea
DaLanMan said:
hint, anyone know a shop in
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Yup, that's right, "does anyone know a shop in (insert location)". UpWays has access to a large upcoming (hopefully repairable) inventory.
 
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It is more a matter of I do not know of any shop around my parts that actually works on things they did not sell.

So there are all these mail order/costco/whatever bikes out there that no one has a location to bring them to when there is a problem, the rumour has it that the local bike guy stopped accepting them in for service when he had a battery fire. no idea if that is true I heard it from a 12 y/o who had stopped by to ask me if I could fix the chain on his bike (garage was open and I had 4 bikes in view and one on the bench)

Thinking of which. I need to grab that bike with the entirely missing battery and see what can be done about it. Donation to the keep chemo boy in biscuits has resulted in me having a large inventory of random valueable stuff.. oh yeah, which leads me to :😆: my brain is a drunkard wobbling from thought to thought all in it's desire to not have to go to the golf course today to hopefully sell off a trunkful of balls.

More later, I must off....
 
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DaLanMan said:
I am putting the same jack on it that everything else is using, and having sent images, diagrams, manuals etc to people smarter than myself (ya'all included) I have come to teh conclusion that these people should not be allowed to sell roller skates.
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HEY!

Who here has given you bad advice? IF you could answer our questions straight we could help get you going in the right direction. For example, you were asked for photos of the connectors, voltage and related pertinent information of the battery packs, etc.

DaLanMan said:
Power feed dropped off after 6 hours (it waffled on and off, I have seen that before with battery packs, I assume it would have eventually ruined the cels. Not a good bat manager in there.
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Does that mean the charge current decreased after 6 hours? If so, that is usually a sign that the battery is reaching its full charge. Did you measure the battery voltage at that time?

"waffled on and off," what does that mean?

It's hard for me to wade thru the streamofconcionsness typeoutwhateverisinmyhead style of writing to find the relevent information needed to formulate an appropriate solution. Pretty sure others here find it difficult as well.
 
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DaLanMan said:
Power feed dropped off after 6 hours (it waffled on and off, I have seen that before with battery packs, I assume it would have eventually ruined the cels. Not a good bat manager in there.
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If you mean that the charger stopped and started, that is normal behavior for a properly operating balancing-capable BMS near full battery voltage, whenever the cells are not identical in characteristics (which is true of virtually every typical ebike, scooter, etc battery out there), as it balances the cells.

So, it means it is a better BMS in there than many (in that it has a balancing function, and that it's charge FETs actually work to turn the input on and off so that the charger stops trying to charge already-full cells while the BMS does it's job).

For an aged pack that can take hours, days, or even weeks, as the cells can vary quite a bit in capacity and other characteristics.
 
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amberwolf said:
For an aged pack that can take hours, days, or even weeks, as the cells can vary quite a bit in capacity and other characteristics.
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For safety only have charger plugged in when you are there and check the battery frequently 15/20mins at first. Once you know the battery checking the battery can be less often. My previous statement on 4-5 hours to charge the battery didn't take balancing which will lengthen the time the battery needs to be on charger. But the battery should be charged while you are awake and close proximity to the battery being charged. Too easy to forget the battery is on the charger, life happens.
Later floyd
 
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