Project #3. Two motors, Three wheels, Six grand!

[Capo_au]

That's 191bhp and 370lbs to a 16yo kid with no previous motorcycle experience.

And thats legal?

Here in Australia regardless of your age you are prohibited from driving a bike with more than 260cc engine capacity or taking a passenger with in the first 12 months of getting your motorcycle licence.

This is something my mother was always thankful for when my brother got his bike licence at 18.

I just wish they would up the e-bike power limit here, 200W just is'nt enough!

 

[liveforphysics]

Yup, it's legal.

I rode an R6 with 110bhp when I was in highschool, then got a GSXR-750 with 141bhp. That was all just on a learners permit. That was after racing dirtbikes from age 8 onward though, so I was pretty familiar with how to ride a motorcycle. Had I been turned loose on the 110bhp R6 without 8 previous years of motorcycle experience, I would have been a corpse.

I personally never had a motorcycle endorsement until just a month ago, I decided ehh, I been riding for 11years on the street with only a learners permit, I may as well get the licence. lol It was getting tougher to tell them that I'm still learning when I would go to the DMV when I had to renew my licence. lol I wanted to ride the whole test course in a wheelie when I took the test

 

[12p3phPMDC]

Re: 16 yr old kid with GSXR1000 w/ no previous moto experience.

That is just insane. I hope he doesn't kill himself or others.
I saw a crotch rocket running at 120mph plus hit a Jeep turning slowly on to a highway.
It was basically a frontage road highway with a 55 mph speed limit.
The jeep was flipped over and the rider was killed instantly.
He was riding irresponsibly by going insane speeds on a twisty, turny highway,
with very little visibility.
There is no way the Jeep even saw him coming and nor did the rider have
time to react.

I was always steered away from motorcycles... My old man and brothers
had a lot of experience on them and a lot of injuries. I can't imagine
a 16 year old on a machine like that with no experience.
You did the right thing by trying to talk him down, even if he didn't listen.

Matt, congrats on the sales!! and thanks for posting the legal bits you learned.

 

[JEB]

It seems that we are getting a little off subject, but my 2 cents-

Years ago a motorcycle nut was riding up a 2 lane 35mph posted street (with hills) at 95~mph, a car made a left turn in front of him, (never saw him comming) driver found at fault, guy lost a arm, and has mental problems, drivers insurance paid BIG$$.

 

[grindz145]

E-bikes or motorcycles, its the same risk, not sure why so many people are afraid to admit it...

 

[recumpence]

On and ebike, the risk is the same, the odds of horrible injury or death is much lower. It is possible, though. Rhett is an unfortunate example of that.........

12p,

What Catrike do you have? I am considering a 700. I have had customers ask about modest (under 2kw) power system for them. I have 2.5 inch ID round tube drive unit mounts clamps done now. I may be setting up Catrikes too (again, with lower powered drives).

Matt

 

[nsasch]

Matt,
If I'm not mistaken, 12p has the 700.
It definitely is a well-built trike, but it's not optimal for modifying. The low ground clearance (2.5", although) makes adding a mid-drive difficult, unless it's left-hand drive or internally geared (chain angle issues).

I'm sure you could make a great power system for those people, but I know I'm investing my money in a new trike better suited to it. There is no suspension and low-ground clearance prevents going really fast. I feel comfortable at 40 on very smooth, familiar roads, but 60 makes me very nervous (and, after flying airplanes, unicycling, and recumbent'ing, there's not much that makes me afraid of speed).

If you're not interested in adapting to Catrikes, you can forward your potential customers my way. I'm willing to sell my motor mount

I think custom built is the way to go for high-power commuting trikes.

Nick

 

[recumpence]

I have 1.5 inch, 2 inch, and 2.5 inch ID clamps machined and in stock right now. So, I am capable of mounting a drive to almost anything at this point.

Catrikes are just so beautiful and efficient, they seem like a great option for a low power, light weight drive.

Matt

 

[northernmike]

These are really growing on me.

I love the room + stability features. Matt, I think you've stumbled into a cool market. Bikes and aircraft have an obviously charmed history together :wink: ... it's a nice surprise to see airplane people that are also bike people.

You trike aficionados, can someone show me a trike that's a bit taller, though?

City traffic absolutely necessitates vision and visibility!

There's the Nihola Cigar, but $4k is a bit steep for me.

However - enough room for batteries, or WHAT?

 

[12p3phPMDC]

I have a 2006 Speed.

It has a 450 rear wheel whereas the newer versions have a 405 rear
which is what I'm going to. I might end up building some extension dropouts
to raise up the rear end as well.

It has a 2" main tube. 700 probably does too..

I don't know if KMX has a disclaimer when it comes to adding power, but
Catrike does. They null your frame warranty...which, since mine is used anyway, I don't care.

Miles hooked me up and renamed my build
to Catrike "Three" Speed...a little double entendre going on there.
Tom Petty would be proud... :wink:

It is a nice trike, but the chromo frames on the KMX and the
space under the seat give the KMX an advantage for e-application.

The KMX also seem to come stock with rear disc...whereas the
Catrike does not.

I test drove a 700 and that's why I picked up the Catrike Speed used.
The 700 has a 700 rear wheel...go figure.

The lightweight Aluminum tubing is nice for weight but a little worriesome
for the torque I'll put on it...
But if you have a customer with one...hey...it'll work.

 

[Miles]

You trike aficionados, can someone show me a trike that's a bit taller, though?

This one comes to mind: http://www.stitesdesign.com/wrap_hpv.html

 

[jmygann]

Utah trikes is looking to electrify their quad

http://www.utahtrikes.com/TRIKE-UTCQUAD.html

perhaps a RC motor drive ??

 

[Capo_au]

Well, I brake torqued the trike untill the tire blew. There were balls of rubber stuck to my shirt. Talk about SMOKE! We did get it on video. But, it was my uncle that videoed me with his camera. He is now out of state. He is burning me a CD of it. I will upload it when I get it.t

Any word on that Video Matt?

 

[recumpence]

Oh, Man, I totally forgot about that. Of course, so did my uncle. He never sent the darn thing. I will call him today.

One cool new development;

Scott (the trike owner) geared the trike up from the 50mph I had it geared for, to 55mph. When he did so, something interesting happened; The accelleration DRASTICALLY increased! (I told him that may happen. I have seen it with RC cars.) It is like the motors are in their sweet spot or something. It used to accellerate REALLY hard. Now, it runs like it has a blower on it! Major improvement!

As a teaser statement for you, keep your eyes peeled on the forum over the next couple months. I have a number of builds I am starting soon (the trikes are in on their way to me now) that will be really wild. One of them is another 20+hp Typhoon. That trike will have a 3 inch wide rear rim and tire geared for 60mph. I may take it to the drag strip at some point. AUW should be under 90 pounds if all goes well. I also have a few other builds coming along as well that are exotic, but not so high powered.

Matt

 

[spinningmagnets]

Did some Googling to find some taller tadpoles that I know Ive seen somewhere, but they all seem to be custom, instead of production models that can be bought. Just for fun...

Recumbent tadpole trike patent from 1869.
http://bicyclepatents.com/1869-tadpole-recumbent-trike/1243/

Recumbent tadpole from "Modern Mechanix" magazine, 1936

Don Schroeder's "Specter", 2008 Velo-tadpole that uses a camera instead of a window

 

[Capo_au]

Thanks for the update, cant wait

 

[mud2005]

Scott (the trike owner) geared the trike up from the 50mph I had it geared for, to 55mph. When he did so, something interesting happened; The accelleration DRASTICALLY increased! (I told him that may happen. I have seen it with RC cars.) It is like the motors are in their sweet spot or something. It used to accellerate REALLY hard. Now, it runs like it has a blower on it! Major improvement!

That is really interesting, I would have thought the opposite to be true. Is there a way to calculate this "sweet spot" I wonder if I've been over gearing for torque when I could be getting better acceleration with less gearing?

 

[Grinhill]

Could it be as simple as lower torque meaning less wheelspin, more traction, and so better acceleration?

 

[Capo_au]

Oh, Man, I totally forgot about that. Of course, so did my uncle. He never sent the darn thing. I will call him today.

In the mean time I stumbled across VRdublove's Channel on youtube. His vid's should keep my thirst for high powered trikes quenched for a little while at least

No crazy where spin on his version, however the title of his latest video did state it was only running at 40%.

Anyway, his successful setup has made me even more keen to attempt it on a bike i have handy.

Like all things in life if I attempt an e-trike will depend on money and time, both of which I hope to have more of in the next few months.

Cheers.

 

[recumpence]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvsylaPU7S8

I just completed the second 20hp KMX Typhoon the day before yesterday. There are, now, two of these beasts running around. They are geared for 55 mph and run 0 to 55 in a touch under 5.5 seconds at this point.

Matt

 

[Arlo1]

Saw that video about 3 weeks ago and I figured that might be you sure am impressed!

 

[gestalt]

Killer acceleration, all hail the efficiency of the recumbant trike. Thing looks squirly as hell too, love it. Had an idea for a light weight four wheeler that you rode low like that on. Two rear hub motors, two 48v 20ah packs, two controllers and a pod racer style steering and throttle control. Keep in mind I got. The idea high off my gourd at burning man having visions of playa races in these things.

 

[Kburn77]

Recumpence, you have exceeded any and all of my expectations of how powerful a ebike can be! Truly amazing performance! Do you have a build thread? What are the specs?

 

[MitchJi]

Recumpence, you have exceeded any and all of my expectations of how powerful a ebike can be! Truly amazing performance! Do you have a build thread? What are the specs?

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=11422

Project #3. Two motors, Three wheels, Six grand!

 

[swbluto]

Could it be as simple as lower torque meaning less wheelspin, more traction, and so better acceleration?

That does seem like a more likely possibility - it seems fairly unlikely the motor's torque has increased, although the sensorless part does seem to add some unknowns to start up torque.

Through studies on anti-lock brakes, you'll find that tires that are "sliding" on the pavement have less traction that those that aren't. If you lock the brakes, you'll skid further. Likewise, wheels that are "sliding" on the pavement with more wheelspin would have less traction, methinks, thus allowing less acceleration. As an extreme example that demonstrates the principle, imagine driving on ice. If you start in first gear and gun the engine, the wheels will spin and spin but the vehicle will barely move. If you start at second, it's far more likely to start accelerating and not spin in place, thus having greater acceleration despite less torque at the wheel. I noticed that the wheels on recumpence's vehicle were spinning quite a bit in his demo video, and it seems like acceleration from 5 mph really wasn't as great as it is when he's at somewhere in between 15 and 30 mph, despite the great likelihood the motor is putting out more torque at 5 mph.