QS Motor Mid Drive

[bunya]

I've noticed that QS Motor are putting together a mid drive scooter/moto swingarm package. It looks pretty cool and will be interesting to see if anyone has plans to use it for a conversion.

http://www.cnqsmotor.com/en/article_read/(Pre-selling)%20New%20QS%20Motor%202000W%20Mid%20Drive%20Motor%20Kit%20Assembly/572.html

 

[RobertC]

Interesting! Thanks for posting this.

 

[kin27779]

Cool but its missing a key feature that could be easily integrated and make that 2000w motor feel much more powerful. It should have an oil filled integrated 6 speed gearbox just like the brammo electric bike. With gears the thing would be perfect.

 

[kin27779]

Otherwise its not much different from a hub motor, being single speed. The advantage to locating the motor outside of the wheel is the ability to add a gearbox, just saying.

 

[macribs]

If you need lower gearing you could do with a jack shaft rather then gearbox.

 

[kin27779]

If you installed a jackshaft that would result in a bigger power loss and if geared low only result in a higher take off. The point of a 6 speed tranny as with the brammo bike is to get maximum take off speed/ acceleration with low gearing and maximum top speed with high gearing, a high top speed is what most electric motorcycles lack since most are just 1 or 2 speeds. 6 speeds is what you need hands down, gas or electric.

 

[macribs]

I don't think you will find much support for your theories in this forum. Rather then spending money and adding weight with a transmission which will also eat away of the motor performance you will get more power if you just use your money on a bigger motor or run a dual motor setup.

Driving a 6 speed gear box will afaik be less efficient then running a bigger motor to begin with. Your gearbox becomes a band aid for choosing a too small motor to begin with. Drop the gearbox and make a dual motor with a one step reduction and you will save weight, and most likely money too.

 

[kin27779]

Not to sound like a smart ass but why didn't brammo do or think of that?
They have had a lot of success selling bikes with trannys mounted to electric motors.
gearboxes Do add lower gearing for take off, not a big deal since most electric motors have monster torque.
But what a lot of electric motors dont have is good top speed, That's why the caviga and other
electric bikes with a 1 or 2 speed system can only go 150mph. I think the caviga could hit 200 with more speeds.

I could go into the many other reasons of having a gearbox such as downshifts, and power downshifts, and regenerative downshifts etc...
Weather you like it or not, I still feel gearboxes will remain in many future electric motorcycles, especially the regenerative kind that
haven't really hit the market segment yet. Harleys working on one at the moment.

 

[macribs]

But what a lot of electric motors dont have is good top speed, That's why the caviga and other
electric bikes with a 1 or 2 speed system can only go 150mph. I think the caviga could hit 200 with more speeds.

I could go into the many other reasons of having a gearbox such as downshifts, and power downshifts, and regenerative downshifts etc...
Weather you like it or not, I still feel gearboxes will remain in many future electric motorcycles, especially the regenerative kind that
haven't really hit the market segment yet. Harleys working on one at the moment.

kin pls search the forum, this topic has been beaten do death countless times already. I have been where you are now. And guess what I was wrong. And people far smarter then you and me have pitched in and spoked their voice on the topic in various threads here.

For an electric bike most people will not do speeds above 60 mph at the most due to safety. For an electric motorcycle speeds up to 120 or even 150 mph sure will be fun, but you got to remember you are riding an electric motorcycle - even if you converted a sleek fairing bike like Hayabusa your battle against the head wind and air increases dramatically as you pass speed of say 60-90 mph. So much so in fact that because your motor/controller and batterypack will work so hard to battle and punch a whole in the air you end up reducing your range so quickly you soon realize it ain't worth it. And a gearbox will not help against the battle of the air, in fact most likely you will find adding a gearbox eats away your power. As there will be power losses in the speedbox.

If you fancy being a racer that frequently goes faster then 120 mph, and like to stay at that speed for prolonged time get any petrol bike you fancy and that bike will make you happy. If you try to do the same with an electric motorcycle you end up draining your batteries so quickly you loose all your range. As of today, the long hi speed runs is likely the only place where electric motorcycles does not shine. For that purpose, it is fair to say a gasoline powered bike will suit your needs far better.

What does regenerative braking has to do with it? You dial in the amount of regen in the controller. You could go from zero regen to tire skidding regen. And you can do that all without gearbox. Roll back on the throttle, or use a regen switch on your brake lever, or even do a push button or reverse throttle setup or any combinations you fancy. They all work perfect without any gearbox.

 

[kin27779]

Obviously you have me mistaken on technical reach, demand, and ultimate goal orientation.
Just like you, I was stuck at these battery demand capabilities until I freed my mind looking much forward as to technology that will soon be replacing standard lithium ion batteries with solid state batteries and other battery technology. It's obvious we both realized at some point the battery was the big limitating factor in high speed and any duration past 10km's, but I decided to take that out of the equation years ago and went with the what if, technological improvement, non-self thought limiting factor of the battery, and instead employed myself in the niche monopoly one and only high speed bikes Inc. Because if you think about it,... it is and would be a monopoly should you produce the first 200mph electric bike that goes further than 10 km's. So again, I restate myself, i'm gearing up to use solid state batteries, a technology not even on the market currently in the motorcycle world but if and when that technology rolls out, hello monopoly opportunity. Again not to be a smart ass but, I would like a bike that does everything gas can do, without the gas part. And my mind does not set limitations, sorry if that offends anyone on this forum by forward looking the rapid advancement in technology applied to batteries today.

 

[Voltron]

Otherwise its not much different from a hub motor, being single speed. The advantage to locating the motor outside of the wheel is the ability to add a gearbox, just saying.

There's plenty of advantages to moving the motor without adding a gearbox, i.e. reducing the sprung weight on the swingarm, and being able to swap sprockets for different courses.
But isn't this unit designed to go onto your basic street scooter anyway, and not a high speed race bike?

 

[macribs]

Kin feel free to think forward and see things in a bigger picture, you might come up with something radical.
Myself I have kind of stopped paying attention to the "next big thing" in batteries. Every so often we read about a break trough. Some small company has a new take on batteries that will let us drive harder for extended periods of time. Some even say they are close to production run. Sadly "close to production" is a vague term, and what might be "close in time" for can person can very much be ahead in time for the next guy.

For now I consider Li ion and Lipoly to be the batteries we can get without breaking the bank. So those are the batteries I will use. Hopefully in a couple or maybe 5 years time some new chemistry or additives will make my packs obsolete. When that time comes I hopefully has the needed cash to jump aboard the new battery tech and take advantage of better batteries. Until then I enjoy BEV the way I can do today.

The scooter conversion I am doing this winter will be "old school" li ion or li poly. Not aiming for huge range, but aiming for fun city riding, street only.

Not to sound like a smart ass but why didn't brammo do or think of that?
They have had a lot of success selling bikes with trannys mounted to electric motors.
gearboxes Do add lower gearing for take off, not a big deal since most electric motors have monster torque.
But what a lot of electric motors dont have is good top speed, That's why the caviga and other
electric bikes with a 1 or 2 speed system can only go 150mph. I think the caviga could hit 200 with more speeds.

I could go into the many other reasons of having a gearbox such as downshifts, and power downshifts, and regenerative downshifts etc...
Weather you like it or not, I still feel gearboxes will remain in many future electric motorcycles, especially the regenerative kind that
haven't really hit the market segment yet. Harleys working on one at the moment.

I don't know how well Brammo actually did, how much sales do the get compared to Zero? I see a few Zero now and then but I have never seen Brammo around. Don't know why. It could be that the choice made to add a gearbox does not sit that well with the BEV movement. Added complicity, added costs and afaik from watching some of the reviews on yt of the Brammo did didn't really get it. Or so some test drivers have stated. It seems people are more pleased with the CVT of the Sora Tito. Still that CVT adds both complexity, weight and costs. Zero has been staying away from complicating the drive. So has HD with their prototype EV mc.

The only 2 reasons I see to choose a gearbox for an BEV would be if the motor chosen in the first place was not the correct motor for the application, gearbox being a band aid to rectify poor choice of power plant. Other reason is purely to cater for feelings of motorcycle riders. Let the rider control the clutch and gearbox in a retrospective way rather then embracing simplicity, less dead weight, less moving parts(efficiencies) and less production and maintenance costs. But would that be the smart option? I mean if you target buyers 40+ of age that has had their share of motorcycles it could very well be a smart move. But if your product is future feature directed to green thinking, younger buyers and urban riders it could very well put them off the idea to buy into unnecessary complexities and costs, just for the sake of old skool feeling.



If you are the one that end up being the first to the market with a >200 mph BEV motorcycle I will surely sign up to be part of the future movement.

 

[technotony007]

Kin feel free to think forward and see things in a bigger picture, you might come up with something radical.
Myself I have kind of stopped paying attention to the "next big thing" in batteries. Every so often we read about a break trough. Some small company has a new take on batteries that will let us drive harder for extended periods of time. Some even say they are close to production run. Sadly "close to production" is a vague term, and what might be "close in time" for can person can very much be ahead in time for the next guy.

For now I consider Li ion and Lipoly to be the batteries we can get without breaking the bank. So those are the batteries I will use. Hopefully in a couple or maybe 5 years time some new chemistry or additives will make my packs obsolete. When that time comes I hopefully has the needed cash to jump aboard the new battery tech and take advantage of better batteries. Until then I enjoy BEV the way I can do today.

The scooter conversion I am doing this winter will be "old school" li ion or li poly. Not aiming for huge range, but aiming for fun city riding, street only.

Not to sound like a smart ass but why didn't brammo do or think of that?
They have had a lot of success selling bikes with trannys mounted to electric motors.
gearboxes Do add lower gearing for take off, not a big deal since most electric motors have monster torque.
But what a lot of electric motors dont have is good top speed, That's why the caviga and other
electric bikes with a 1 or 2 speed system can only go 150mph. I think the caviga could hit 200 with more speeds.

I could go into the many other reasons of having a gearbox such as downshifts, and power downshifts, and regenerative downshifts etc...
Weather you like it or not, I still feel gearboxes will remain in many future electric motorcycles, especially the regenerative kind that
haven't really hit the market segment yet. Harleys working on one at the moment.

I don't know how well Brammo actually did, how much sales do the get compared to Zero? I see a few Zero now and then but I have never seen Brammo around. Don't know why. It could be that the choice made to add a gearbox does not sit that well with the BEV movement. Added complicity, added costs and afaik from watching some of the reviews on yt of the Brammo did didn't really get it. Or so some test drivers have stated. It seems people are more pleased with the CVT of the Sora Tito. Still that CVT adds both complexity, weight and costs. Zero has been staying away from complicating the drive. So has HD with their prototype EV mc.

The only 2 reasons I see to choose a gearbox for an BEV would be if the motor chosen in the first place was not the correct motor for the application, gearbox being a band aid to rectify poor choice of power plant. Other reason is purely to cater for feelings of motorcycle riders. Let the rider control the clutch and gearbox in a retrospective way rather then embracing simplicity, less dead weight, less moving parts(efficiencies) and less production and maintenance costs. But would that be the smart option? I mean if you target buyers 40+ of age that has had their share of motorcycles it could very well be a smart move. But if your product is future feature directed to green thinking, younger buyers and urban riders it could very well put them off the idea to buy into unnecessary complexities and costs, just for the sake of old skool feeling.



If you are the one that end up being the first to the market with a >200 mph BEV motorcycle I will surely sign up to be part of the future movement.

Well said Macribs …… :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:
,especially the last paragraph... I am attempting to replace the standard OEM ICE and fit a 20kw BLDC motor directly onto the crankshaft to my Honda ST1300. for the exactly reasons above.

because I want to keep the original handling characteristics of the bike , and evolve the battery technology as it advances.

The operational torque will be limited to the standard bike at the controller , which I believe in theory should be a stronger design. ( and a 100kg weight saving with all the ancillary bits.) The big in theory should weight around 160kg from 286kg.

The only battle I have now , is what batteries to use … and how many to get the best range possible.

regards

tony

 

[macribs]

...snip...
Just like you, I was stuck at these battery demand capabilities until I freed my mind looking much forward as to technology that will soon be replacing standard lithium ion batteries with solid state batteries and other battery technology.....snip

Let us know how that went for you.