RC Mid drive project - trial/freeride style

Nope, its directly bolted to the hub. Means I can do re-gen braking which, by the way, the Adaptto controller has variable re-gen breaking. Its awesome, hardly need to use the mechanical brake at all.

The pedal chain is just using the standard cassette freewheel so its de-coupled from the motor chain that way
 
Great stuff! Need some video :)

When you say hot, how hot are we talking? Do you have any fan blades mounted? That seems to make a substantial difference in power handling.

You have the charging/BMS etc all set up with the Adaptto?
 
How hard is it to pedal without electrical power? is it as bad as a DD hub motor?

Its pretty hard. But mostly because I’ve only got 3 gears for the pedalling chain and these are selected to be able to pedal at around 40km/h. without the electric motor ‘assistance’ it’s hard to pedal because of this high gearing. I’d say its pretty similar to a DD hub motor though.

Great stuff! Need some video

When you say hot, how hot are we talking? Do you have any fan blades mounted? That seems to make a substantial difference in power handling.

You have the charging/BMS etc all set up with the Adaptto?

Yeah I’ll get some video once I’m happy with how it runs. Got the temp limit set to 120 degreesC. My test run involves accelerating from 0 – 50km/h on flat then up a small hill. It’s only about 200m distance. That raises the motor temp from 75 to 95 degreesC. Sitting on around 3kW the whole run. As I write this I’m realising I need to do testing on a flat road. No flat roads around where I live though.

I do have a 3D printed fan fitted, pulling air through the motor which does seem to cool it down faster.

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Charging and cell balancing is all setup. It makes like so much easier than having to charge the batteries in parallel with a RC balance charger!

Try to change gearing, 70kph could be too much for that motor.

70km/h on a flat road needs around 3kW. Should be able to do that no problem. Need to find a flat road and test power consumption vs speed
 
I have never had a 80100 but I do have the shorter motors 8085's (rewound) and I have run these reliably upto 6-7kw peaks and pro 4-5kw averge and 3kw stright flat/line, On my minimoto that is geared for around 40mph and this have been run constantly for upto 20-30mins at a time on a race track and a total of maybe 40hours and counting without any issues I have no fan installed, yes it do get hot but nothing has burnt again yet , I had one burn out a while ago but this was due to a phase winding popping out and getting trapped between the can and the stator. I think the shorter motors will not get so hot as the longer motors at the same power levels.. dont ask me why but thats my gut feeling.
 
More tuning of the adaptto settings this weekend if it will stop raining here.

Gwhy, do you know what temperature your C8085 motor would typically run at?
My motor is limited by the hall sensors which are rated to 150 degreesC so I could allow it to run up to that temp
 
Stielz said:
More tuning of the adaptto settings this weekend if it will stop raining here.

Gwhy, do you know what temperature your C8085 motor would typically run at?
My motor is limited by the hall sensors which are rated to 150 degreesC so I could allow it to run up to that temp

I only have a very cheap non-contact thermometer so I never really trusted it and take the reading as a guide and not a true measurment, but I seen around 90c on the bell and if I tried to aim it at the windings I would get around 110c
my hall sensors are on the outside so I don't have this issue with them but I would not want my coils to be going over 130c and the bell over 100c
 
Infra-red thermometers are a fantastic tool for checking temperatures, but they do have one drawback that not everyone knows about:

When using an infra-red non contact thermometer be aware that different surfaces have different "emissivity", which results in a different reading on the thermometer even when tempreatures are the same.
For example, a shiny stainless steel pipe with liquid flowing through it at 75 deg C showed between 36 and 40 degrees C with 3 different infra red thermometers.
The shiny can of some RC motors would have very low emissivity and give seriously incorrect readings.
Some IR thermometers can be adjusted for different emissivity values, but they should be checked against a specific surface at a known temperature after adjustment.

If you can spray a thin coat of matte black paint onto the surface you want to measure, the result should be quite accurate.
Sticking on a patch of thin black tape is a reasonable temporary measure although the tape itself will be an insulating layer and the surface temperature of the tape will be a bit lower than the material it is stuck to. Black PVC insulation tape stuck to the stainless pipe mentioned above resulted in readings around 70 - 72 degrees. Scuffing the surface of the tape with fine sandpaper improved the readings by 1 or 2 deg.

My guess is that the dark brown lacquer on the wire of the windings would give a reasonably accurate result, but would prefer to check with a contact type thermometer before assuming it was accurate.

Regards,
Dave
 
Thanks for this Dave,
Very useful information and highlights some of my concerns with the accuracy of my IR thermometer :D
 
Here are some pics of the ‘finished’ bike.

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I used quotation marks because it’s still not running as well as I had expected.

I’ve managed to find settings on the Adaptto controller that give around about the power consumption that you’d expect for a given speed. But the motor still overheats very quickly at pretty low power levels. With just 42mOhm phase resistance I thought it would it would take a decent amount of current without overheating but that doesn’t seem to be the case.

The power levels I’m using are around 4kW on acceleration and 1.5 – 2kW continuous for about 5 min then it will hit 100degC (starting from room temp) and I have to stop to let it cool.

So then I looked at what other factors would make it use excessive power. Did some fine adjustments to chain alignment – no difference. Tried some different amount of chain slack – no difference. Tried inflating the tyres to their max rated pressure – no difference.

I thought maybe the clearance between the motor can and aluminium mounting hardware might be too small which would induce eddy currents in the aluminium from the leakage magnetic flux – but no noticeable heat generated in the mounting hardware so I ruled that out.

The skirt bearing of this motor has been known to generate a bit of heat so I tried running the motor unloaded at high speed for a few min – Couldn’t notice any significant heat generated from the bearing.

When re-winding the motor I went for a high turn count to get a user friendly speed constant to try to get it to work with a single stage gear reduction. I know that reducing the kv of a motor means that I will need to run a higher battery voltage to get decent power. I thought 16S lipo (60V) would be a reasonable voltage and still work well with the single stage reduction. Guess not.

My conclusion is that this set up needs either lower gearing (2 stage reduction) and higher kv motor, or lower gearing (2 stage reduction) and higher voltage.

Seriously considering going to plan B which is to put a big hub motor on it..
 
Stielz said:
Here are some pics of the ‘finished’ bike.

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I used quotation marks because it’s still not running as well as I had expected.

I’ve managed to find settings on the Adaptto controller that give around about the power consumption that you’d expect for a given speed. But the motor still overheats very quickly at pretty low power levels. With just 42mOhm phase resistance I thought it would it would take a decent amount of current without overheating but that doesn’t seem to be the case.

The power levels I’m using are around 4kW on acceleration and 1.5 – 2kW continuous for about 5 min then it will hit 100degC (starting from room temp) and I have to stop to let it cool.

So then I looked at what other factors would make it use excessive power. Did some fine adjustments to chain alignment – no difference. Tried some different amount of chain slack – no difference. Tried inflating the tyres to their max rated pressure – no difference.

I thought maybe the clearance between the motor can and aluminium mounting hardware might be too small which would induce eddy currents in the aluminium from the leakage magnetic flux – but no noticeable heat generated in the mounting hardware so I ruled that out.

The skirt bearing of this motor has been known to generate a bit of heat so I tried running the motor unloaded at high speed for a few min – Couldn’t notice any significant heat generated from the bearing.

When re-winding the motor I went for a high turn count to get a user friendly speed constant to try to get it to work with a single stage gear reduction. I know that reducing the kv of a motor means that I will need to run a higher battery voltage to get decent power. I thought 16S lipo (60V) would be a reasonable voltage and still work well with the single stage reduction. Guess not.

My conclusion is that this set up needs either lower gearing (2 stage reduction) and higher kv motor, or lower gearing (2 stage reduction) and higher voltage.

Seriously considering going to plan B which is to put a big hub motor on it..

looks bloody awsome mate.

however, i'd suggest plan C or D first...
C spend some time tuning the adappto. greenroads (es member) has had good success running a small RC style motor with an adappto, but they need allot of fine tuning to do it well. Try running it sensor less for a while and see if that improves the heat issue - if it does then that points to tuning being the main issue here. Greenroads also left some good tips on the addapto owners thread, so might be worth a look.
D get a different mid drive option, like a revolt rv100 or 120 pro. I'm going to be getting mine running in the next couple of weeks and though it'll need the same extensive tuning as your motor, it should handle a fair bit more power (3.5kw continuous).

Unless you just want a road worrior the addition of the hub will really hurt the handling. there's allot you can do with tuning shocks etc that can help but even then noting beats reducing unsprung weight.
 
Cheers mate.

Plan C - sure I'll keep tweaking it, see if I can make any improvements.

Plan D - Unfortunately I don't have space in the swing arm for any bigger motor. 80mm diameter is the biggest that will fit otherwise I would have gone for bigger.

A two stage reduction would be possible and not too difficult if I had access to the machinery. But the reality is that its not a hugely powerful motor.. after seeing the videos of Adaptto + MXUX 3000 or Adaptto + Cro Motor going 100+ km/h with insane acceleration on 12+ kW I kind of just want to do that lol
 
just another thought mate...
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given the style of this bike it doesn't look too hard to make a custom swingarm - its esentually a single point SA so it doesn't look too hard to replicate, but with plenty of space for either a 2 stage (with dog box?) or a different motor. for sure a bigger undertaking than just dropping in a hub, but something i'd be tempted to try if i had ure bike :p ... then again i have a cnc router and access to free expert welding/brazing at my uni so that makes doing something like that just a tad easier heheh.
 
You can use 20s or 22s, and mount jackshaft under swingarm. You will have more power with two stage reduction but this will be probably still unsatisfactionary.

So, cut your swingarm and reweld it to fit Revolt RV120 Pro. This should get you to "insane" power levels :D

Don't go for hub - we trust you!
 
Stielz Congrats on your build looks great, the simplicity of a hub is tempting thats why i went that direction for my first build....
Im not a reduction expert but im sure you prob is not enough reduction / two high a kv and low voltage and as already said its not that'' powerfull a motor'' for a single reduction.
And after a while you will want more power /performance ... so another vote for a rv120 pro :D in the meantime enjoy you work man.
 
riba2233 said:
On how many rpm is your motor spinning? You know that these motors need 9000 rpm to achieve full declared power?

Yup I'm seeing that now. With this setup its doing 4500 RPM max.

Maybe I just need a second e-bike project with a big hubmotor to get my high power fix lol
 
Stielz said:
RV 120 pro does look good. I'll have a ponder over whether I can fit it

I saw you are even looking into hubs so I just thought I should give you a tip about this option. The drive unit is made for astro's 32xx. Reduction 80:1.More powerful then your current motor and astro motors uses hi qual magnets and all parts are rated 200 degrees Celsius. You will always have the motor running in peak RPM with such a setup. I mean hubs are fine, but that would change the direction of your build so drastic and I for one hope to see your build succeed down the path you already chosen.

No need to rebuild you swing arm. Mount it and enjoy the riding. If you are quick about it you might be one of the lucky few that gets to buy at special price for beta testing.

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=70098

step5.jpg
 
Nothing stopping you from getting drive unit with the more powerful 3220 - it is a perfect fit :wink:
 
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