Rear rack battery evaluation

[tomjasz]

Those bms need to be tested to know if full working and safe

Not even remotely interested in selling BMS. There's a good reason EM3ev, Luna, and others stopped selling BMS 6 or 7 years ago. Many buyers haven't a clue as to how to handle or install. Many good BMS were returned for warranty when they were probably killed by a n00b.

have a nice time testing bms's

Nope not in this lifetime. I offered to picture the labels. The labels can be translated with Google.

I have them because we insisted UPP give the shop replacements in order to be able to send them out to purchasers if we suspected a BMS. Additionally when Rechie came to the shop he brought a few more for me to use when I was still messing with battery build/repair. I can't match the quality of EM3ev. In the end I just buy a complete battery. I will be offering the building tools and supplies in the next month or two as I sell off all my specialty bike and ebike tools.

Tomjasz did you buy all those bms's or they come off a old packs.

see response to batteryGOLD

They look brand new ?

They are

And how much they cost ?

I'm not selling BMS, I'm sorry if I mislead you.

That's why all one really needs is a good BMS with overvoltage protection and undervoltage protection.

One? Meaning you. And perhaps a large cross-section here. But as legislation slowly creeps into our hoppy better protection and protection circuits and balancing will be needed for finished battery UL certification. UL certification seems to be the direction prebuilt eBike batteries are moving.

Looks like you have a heavy duty one on the far right you didn't buy that from UPP did you ?

I think all were from UPP. The shop I worked for sold UPP batteries for over a year and because of the high failure rate we insisted in a stock of BMS for warranty replacement. In the end, we decided encouraging kit buyers to make a repair was not a good business plan.

 

[999zip999]

Have you experience much in the way of battery fires with upp. Not just personally but with your customers ?
One thing for the batteries BMS to fail another thing for the battery to catch on fire.

 

[99t4]

Now tha US minimum wage is $15 hr is there any American company can build a quality rear rack battery to compete with China ?

Compete in which way? On price? Quality? Performance? Longevity? Customer support? Employee safety?

 

[eMark]

Compete in which way? On price? Quality? Performance? Longevity? Customer support? Employee safety?

Primarily price as that seems to be why China cuts corners to sell an inferior product for considerably less. That's most likely why EM3ev and Grin Technologies don't sell rear rack batteries ... 36V 22Ah eZee Flat Battery ... who's going to pay +$1000 for a Grin flat (rear rack) battery?

A rear rack battery is more often than not for casual ebike users on a limited budget (say $200 to $300) ... 36V 48V Rear Rack Ebike Battery Li-ion Electric Bike Pack for 200W-1500W Motor | eBay ... ebay, Amazon, AliExpress.

Even a more expensive quality EM3ev ebike battery is built in China ...
eBike battery, motors and Electric Bike kits | EM3ev ... just because it's built in China doesn't mean quality control is out of reach.

Quality Control with zero tolerance for defects is #1 Mission Statement with the CEO ... About EM3ev | EM3ev
________________
Noticed that the supposed UPP rear rack batteries on ebay never show a UPP logo in any of the photos. Just called UPP because as Chinese rear rack batteries go UPP probably has the best recognition when it comes to rear rack batteries. Most UPP rear rack 36V (higher capacity) batteries cost around $350.

That said i have 2 UPP 36V rear rack 10Ah batteries $250 (2-3 yrs old) with many cycles. Very pleased with capacity, performance and price (sofar).

 

[eMark]

I think all were from UPP. The shop I worked for sold UPP batteries for over a year and because of the high failure rate we insisted in a stock of BMS for warranty replacement. In the end, we decided encouraging kit buyers to make a repair was not a good business plan.

If only they would have been DALY ... but back then was DALY even available (not that they're never defective). Don't know for sure whether high failure rate was mainly due to defective BMS or deective battery build or both ??

Back then who had the time, equipment and/or know-how to even test a BMS on their "free time"

 

[99t4]

... just because it's built in China doesn't mean quality control is out of reach.

Yes agreed. Our modern "default" marketplace has been "Walmart-ized" to drive a race-to-the-bottom lowest price methodology to product selection, in relation to all other aspects. But manufacturers in China absolutely do have the ability and capacity to produce high quality products; however the marketplace does not appear to value that.

 

[nicobie]

Maybe people in the USA just too cheap or stupid to buy quality stiff from China.

 

[tomjasz]

Maybe people in the USA just too cheap or stupid to buy quality stiff from China.

how true. but it is difficult finding and sorting the good guys. too often buyers egos keep them from doing good reviews. “anything I buy has to be good/best” witness the number of defenders of generic batteries with other than accepted quality standards for battery construction.

 

[Stealth_Chopper]

Life is too short for a stinking ugly low tech battery pack that you worry will burn down 'your' apartment building sheltering that big bike.

Why don't you call the Electric Bike Company, on the telephone in English speaking California, and ask about their rack system battery & charger. The owner Sean, may answer you.
It will be the heart of your creations.
Quote:
"GO further for less, with our Battery
We have directly designed and engineered our very own battery pack with performance and safety standards our priority. We use certified, tested and internationally EBC approved, quality, lithium Ion NMC battery cells with a world leading 5 year warranty for safety, reliability, range and life cycle. Our patent-pending, internal charger with retractable cord means you never have to worry about bringing a charger with you. The built-in fan keeps the battery cool and improves performance. An optional external, super-charger is also available for a rapid charge. We provide international battery exchange, and easy maintenance and service with our plug and play wiring system."

 

[Stealth_Chopper]

how true. but it is difficult finding and sorting the good guys. too often buyers egos keep them from doing good reviews. “anything I buy has to be good/best” witness the number of defenders of generic batteries with other than accepted quality standards for battery construction.

Good Chinese Junk. Yeah that stuff.

 

[tomjasz]

Why don't you call the Electric Bike Company, on the telephone in California, and ask about their rack system battery & charger.
It will be the heart of your creations.
Quote:
"GO further for less, with our Battery
We have directly designed and engineered our very own battery pack with performance and safety standards our priority. We use certified, tested and internationally EBC approved, quality, lithium Ion NMC battery cells with a world leading 5 year warranty for safety, reliability, range and life cycle. Our patent-pending, internal charger with retractable cord means you never have to worry about bringing a charger with you. The built-in fan keeps the battery cool and improves performance. An optional external, super-charger is also available for a rapid charge. We provide international battery exchange, and easy maintenance and service with our plug and play wiring system."View attachment 334687

UL WILL become a legislated standard. It’s already beyond rumblings.

 

[tomjasz]

who's going to pay +$1000 for a Grin flat (rear rack) battery?

forward thinking buyers that are willing to spend their first communion money.

 

[Stealth_Chopper]

Good Chinese Junk. Yeah that stuff.

{accepted by no-nothings}

 

[Stealth_Chopper]

UL WILL become a legislated standard. It’s already beyond rumblings.

Enforced by the. Chief Underwriter working out of his/her Laboratory

 

[Stealth_Chopper]

forward thinking buyers that are willing to spend their first communion money.

he's from Boston. Big bucks. $$$.

 

[Stealth_Chopper]

forward thinking buyers that are willing to spend their first communion money.

Because of this:
A Proud young man owning of such an impressive bicycle for his children buys the best !
¥[ _crew the rest ]
Noun'?
Duh: "who's going to pay +$1000 for a Grin flat (rear rack) battery?".

 

[lnanek]

Primarily price as that seems to be why China cuts corners to sell an inferior product for considerably less. That's most likely why EM3ev and Grin Technologies don't sell rear rack batteries ... 36V 22Ah eZee Flat Battery ... who's going to pay +$1000 for a Grin flat (rear rack) battery?

A rear rack battery is more often than not for casual ebike users on a limited budget (say $200 to $300) ... 36V 48V Rear Rack Ebike Battery Li-ion Electric Bike Pack for 200W-1500W Motor | eBay ... ebay, Amazon, AliExpress.

Even a more expensive quality EM3ev ebike battery is built in China ...
eBike battery, motors and Electric Bike kits | EM3ev ... just because it's built in China doesn't mean quality control is out of reach.

Quality Control with zero tolerance for defects is #1 Mission Statement with the CEO ... About EM3ev | EM3ev
________________
Noticed that the supposed UPP rear rack batteries on ebay never show a UPP logo in any of the photos. Just called UPP because as Chinese rear rack batteries go UPP probably has the best recognition when it comes to rear rack batteries. Most UPP rear rack 36V (higher capacity) batteries cost around $350.

That said i have 2 UPP 36V rear rack 10Ah batteries $250 (2-3 yrs old) with many cycles. Very pleased with capacity, performance and price (sofar).

That actually doesn't look like such a bad deal from Grin. $750 for the bare 22Ah battery with brand name LG cells with safety vents. So $750 / 22Ah capacity = $34 per Ah.

The next link is $198 / 10Ah = $20 per Ah for non-brand name, generic cells. More likely to not meet rated capacity and not have safety features to prevent thermal runaway.

I'd happily pay that much extra to not burn my garage down randomly some night. Not to mention I consider 10Ah a useless size since it can't get my bike to work on a full charge. I've bought batteries from China before, but I sure as heck made sure they have brand name cells with safety features, equivalent capacity to my other options, and a balancing BMS. That didn't come at $20 per Ah.

Last time I got a broken part from Grin, they trusted me and cross shipped a replacement. Last time I got a broken part from China, I just got nonsense useless looking into it answers from chat in AliExpress until the dispute window expired. Had to spend double to order again from another supplier.

I've also had Chinese parts never arrived where the seller claimed it would automatically be shipped back and I'd be refunded. Never happened. I've also bought "30A" labeled controllers from China, then checked their settings in the matching display and found they were locked down to 18A max.

So buying from China always has some percent risk you are going to end up spending double to actually get what you want.

 

[Stealth_Chopper]

OTG. A young man with money to spend will buy the best battery pack for all the right reasons.
Cost is often forgotten while quality remains.

 

[Stealth_Chopper]

That actually doesn't look like such a bad deal from Grin. $750 for the bare 22Ah battery with brand name LG cells with safety vents. So $750 / 22Ah capacity = $34 per Ah.

The next link is $198 / 10Ah = $20 per Ah for non-brand name, generic cells. More likely to not meet rated capacity and not have safety features to prevent thermal runaway.

I'd happily pay that much extra to not burn my garage down randomly some night. Not to mention I consider 10Ah a useless size since it can't get my bike to work on a full charge. I've bought batteries from China before, but I sure as heck made sure they have brand name cells with safety features, equivalent capacity to my other options, and a balancing BMS. That didn't come at $20 per Ah.

Last time I got a broken part from Grin, they trusted me and cross shipped a replacement. Last time I got a broken part from China, I just got nonsense useless looking into it answers from chat in AliExpress until the dispute window expired. Had to spend double to order again from another supplier.

I've also had Chinese parts never arrived where the seller claimed it would automatically be shipped back and I'd be refunded. Never happened. I've also bought "30A" labeled controllers from China, then checked their settings in the matching display and found they were locked down to 18A max.

So buying from China always has some percent risk you are going to end up spending double to actually get what you want.

Warranty work on Grinn?
Yes and the American Electric Bike Company System has a handy, ready, bullet proof, built in charger with retractable power cord and warranteed for five years.
What if
YOU, yourself, chose to buy a battery pack today knowing what you know now May 2023
EBC is guaranteed by Sean. I don't know him. I Don't have too because:
Written warranty = five (5) years
OK.

 

[eMark]

So buying from China always has some percent risk you are going to end up spending double to actually get what you want.

The advantage of buying a batttery from Grin (eZee custom-made in China) or another reputable American ebike company is custom specs (e.g. name brand A-grade cells, solid nickel bus bars or nickel plated copper bus bars, quality BMS, good warranty.

American company also needs to make a profit just in case of battery replacement if customer claims battery problem was not the fault of anything they did to cause defect in performance

For comparison the cost of a replacement UPP 36V 10Ah flat 18650 battery (no brand Chinese cells) from my American ebike company costs $436 (specs & profit margin). If purchasing the same 36V 10Ah 10s6p flat battery from Amazon (nickel plated steel bus bars) costs $226 (w/charger w/o warranty) ... https://www.amazon.com/Rear-Rack-Eb...7e66276dcf&ref_=pd_gw_ci_mcx_mr_hp_atf_m&th=1 ... (likely only 4p with 2,500mAh 18650 Chinese cells = 10Ah).

If purchasing just one custom-made UPP flat 10s4p 21700 50e (20Ah) with solid nickel bus bars and a 30A BMS the cost is $352. If nickel plated copper bus bars are a required spec then the minimum order is 30 units. If that was the scenario by an American ebike company the cost would be closer to at least $550 to meet own profit margin and in event of honoring company warranty replacement.

China (e.g. UPP, eZee, etc) can fabricate a quality product if the American company is willing to pay the increase cost to meet or exceed their specifications to satisfy their profit margin and honor warranty in event of a [disputable] defect. Customer pays shipping return to company for their defect determination before honoring warranty replacement.

Grin also has a 36V 15.5Ah flat battery for $560 (w/o charger).
________________


Correction: If above UPP (R006 flat custom with 21700 50e, 30A BMS ... also requires nickel plated copper bus instead of pure nickel bus bars then minimum order is 300 (not 30) units at $352 (per "Sunny" at UPP).