Remote steering question- boat, jetski, or motorcyle cables?

[John in CR]

I'm working out the remote steering for a new bike project, and I've decided that cables are the way to go, because it can't be a straight run, so a steering rod is out. Coming down a mountain a failure would easily get me killed. The options I've come up with are:

1. Steering cable for boats- A single cable for the push and pull from center obviously strong enough, but may add some unnecessary weight.

2. Steering cable for Waverunners/Jets skis- Same as boat steering cable, but so less weight and lighter duty, though about the same cost. I'm not at all familiar with these as to whether they're up to the task and have enough travel.

3. Motorcycle brake/throttle cable- Dual cables, one pulling for left and one pulling for right turns. Motorcycle cable because it's significantly thicker than those for bikes. This is the cheapest route, with a bit more install work. Despite the greater points of failure and lower duty cable can I make that risk essentially nil with regular inspections?

Any thoughts? Input from those familiar with the personal watercraft cables would be great.

John

 

[mabman]

Cable steering such as found on marine craft like boats and jetskis would be very twitchy for that use I am afraid unless you could rig up some sort of a steering dampener system. If you can get to a boat with an outboard or a jetski and operate the steerer on them you will see what I mean, even if they aren't in the water.

 

[cargo]

http://francescycles.com/galleries/cargo/#2269719181

 

[docnjoj]

Hey John. I had an old alloy recumbent years ago with pull-pull cables. A small bellcrank on either side of the steering fork and a couple of pulleys to direct the 1/8 coated steel cable. Worked fine for under seat steering. You could adjust the steering sensitivity with holes in the bellcranks or steering bars. Too bad I sold it. I'll try to draw the setup if I didn;t make it clear.
otherDoc

 

[mabman]

Guess I have to work on my thinking outside of the box a bit more. This looks like it is working for sure and not that hard to execute.

 

[John in CR]

Cable steering such as found on marine craft like boats and jetskis would be very twitchy for that use I am afraid unless you could rig up some sort of a steering dampener system. If you can get to a boat with an outboard or a jetski and operate the steerer on them you will see what I mean, even if they aren't in the water.

Mabman,
I don't know what twitchiness you're talking about unless you've used poorly set up craft with play in the steering linkage. As far as sensitivity goes I can change the relationship of the steering bar lengths if I want something other than a 1:1 with my remote handlebars.

OtherDoc,
I was thinking about a pull/pull system with cables and pulleys, but it would be harder to totally enclose. Kids will be in the vicinity of these cable runs, so I can't take the risk of exposed stuff.

Another alternative to the motorcycle cables would be to use brake line tubing instead of the normal plastic and coiled metal sleeve, and if I have both ends higher than the rest of the run I can keep oil in there to minimize friction and cable or tube wear.

John

 

[mabman]

"Mabman,
I don't know what twitchiness you're talking about unless you've used poorly set up craft with play in the steering linkage."

I know a bit about watercraft and well set up ones also. The first thought that went through my mind was how touchy a rudder can be at speed, like if I had wiggled the bar while taking this picture one handed. Guess I didn't think it through well enough before responding and that French setup looks like it would work just fine as his one handed picture supports. Sorry.

 

[John in CR]

Now I understand the "twitchiness" of watercraft at speed to which you refer, which is the result of several factors unrelated to the actual steering mechanism. Problems in the steering would make those twitches significantly more dangerous, but let's leave those topics alone and just agree that we both love to be on the water.

Do you have a link to more pics of the bike with the dog. I'd love to see the whole bike. It looks like he's using regular bike cables, so me going to motorcycle cables may be enough to be safe, as long as I built it well.

John

 

[mabman]

I just followed the link from cargo's post: http://www.francescycles.com/galleries/cargo/#2269719181 and scrolled through the pics there? There are a few more of the design, specifically the plates. Have fun with it!

If I showed you on a map where that pic was taken you would be shivering in your board shorts. Water is great fun and at some point I would like to set up a PWC platform with an E drive. Might have to talk to Matt about that Not far from where that pic was taken there was a guy who had mounted a trolling motor through the stern of his kayak with a car battery for power and used foot controls to steer it. It was a hoot to see him strutting around the harbor, look Ma, no hands!

Oh well, back to bikes!

 

[amberwolf]

While we're on the topic of cables for steering, do you think the coated steel cables used to support/balance washing machine tubs would work? They're pretty thick, and I would guess strong if they can guide and balance the tub full of water and clothes during agitation and spin.

I have those and the pulleys used to guide them, and was considering using them instead of tubes for the tank-steering linkage in my ARTOO trike. One would be on the left side and one on the right, using a pulley on each to guide around anything that might be in the way, if necessary. Tensioning would be accomplished via the already-threaded end of each cable's housing.

 

[enoob]

as a hard core jet ski fanatic i can tell you you most likely want the setup from an old stand up jetski . some time tomorrow when the light is better ill get you some photos of the old Kawasaki hull i have out back and show you how it connects and how the cable is routed . the system uses one enclosed cable for push/pull connected to ball joints with some adjustment built in and is rather stout.

On your end you would most likely only need to work out the length of the arms the ball joints are connected to in order to get the correct feel and total travel.

 

[John in CR]

as a hard core jet ski fanatic i can tell you you most likely want the setup from an old stand up jetski . some time tomorrow when the light is better ill get you some photos of the old Kawasaki hull i have out back and show you how it connects and how the cable is routed . the system uses one enclosed cable for push/pull connected to ball joints with some adjustment built in and is rather stout.

On your end you would most likely only need to work out the length of the arms the ball joints are connected to in order to get the correct feel and total travel.

Thanks enoob. don't worry about the pics. I found one on Ebay for $28 incl shipping, so I think that's the way I'll go.

 

[etard]

Cargo,
thanks for that post, I really like that bike. It looks very expensive considering all the custom bits.

John,
Have you thought about hydraulics? I know KISS is prolly the best method here, but for purity of feel and zero play, it might be a slick way to go about this. Also, they make flexible shafts for motors and speedometers, I wonder if something like that could be implemented. I will be interested to see your setup when done. If you could post some pics that would be great.

 

[vanilla ice]

Coming down a mountain a failure would easily get me killed.

Geesh after reading that part there.. I'd be inclined to go quad cable, 2 for each side.

 

[docnjoj]

Also John if it is made to be on the water it is probably gunna be better! Just a simple observation. Obviously aircraft Bowden cables are better still but not for 30 bucks!
otherDoc

 

[John in CR]

Coming down a mountain a failure would easily get me killed.

Geesh after reading that part there.. I'd be inclined to go quad cable, 2 for each side.

Believe me, that thought crossed my mind too. If I can find another jetski cable for that cheap, maybe I'll go with dual cables, both capable of push/pull. It's probably unnecessary, but steering on a bike regularly ridden at 40mph+ is kinda important to be failure proof.

 

[etard]

Coming down a mountain a failure would easily get me killed.

Geesh after reading that part there.. I'd be inclined to go quad cable, 2 for each side.

Yeah, but one of four cables binding might have the same effect...

 

[TylerDurden]

Imagine the force on a steering tube when the wheel hits a big bump on an angle.

If I were taking my kids downhill in that bike, I'd use the big boating steer push-pull cables; they're better protected and heftier than automobile clutch cables. I've bought them up to 15' long.

Not cheap... 45 bucks each.

 

[amberwolf]

I didn't think there'd be any experience with the washing machine cables. So I will be the guinea-pig for that. If they don't work, I'll just install tubes instead.