SHENGYI new style lighter 9c type DD motor
- Thread starter miuan
- Start date
StudEbiker
100 kW
There is one place where I could see this motor being very effective and that's in a long range touring bike where you are wanting to keep the watts and the weight low and still have regen. As I am in the planning stages of building some touring e-bikes I will be keeping an eye on your testing of this motor.
StudEbiker
100 kW
Bionx would actually be a terrible touring e-bike choice because of all of it's proprietary crap. I would certainly want more than 9ah of battery on a touring bike and I don't even know if Bionx has a method for paralleling their VERY expensive batteries anyway. I would never chose Bionx for any e-bike application, but for a touring bike, Bionx would probably be my very last choice.
Another important argument against Bionx in that situation is what if something goes wrong on it. You would be at the mercy of Bionx for any part you needed. With an open system you would have a much easier time finding a replacement part faster (and for probably far less money) than a Bionx. Take for example if you are riding in the rain and a throttle goes out. A typical thumb throttle you could carry a spare with you and they are dirt cheap. On the other hand, say your Bionx throttle goes out..... well I sold three of the first generation throttles awhile back at $150 a pop, which I'm sure is much less than what Bionx would charge you and that's if you can get them to answer the phone!
No sir, I would never chose Bionx.
Another important argument against Bionx in that situation is what if something goes wrong on it. You would be at the mercy of Bionx for any part you needed. With an open system you would have a much easier time finding a replacement part faster (and for probably far less money) than a Bionx. Take for example if you are riding in the rain and a throttle goes out. A typical thumb throttle you could carry a spare with you and they are dirt cheap. On the other hand, say your Bionx throttle goes out..... well I sold three of the first generation throttles awhile back at $150 a pop, which I'm sure is much less than what Bionx would charge you and that's if you can get them to answer the phone!
No sir, I would never chose Bionx.John in CR
100 TW
Neptronix,
You should do a little checking before helping spread Xlyte propaganda. What is the source of that test report? I ask because it appears to be fabricated. I knew something didn't smell right when I saw the peak efficiency of 91.8%...yeah right. Low and behold the numbers don't even make sense. Power in isn't voltage X current, and efficiency isn't power out / power in. There's no signature or stamps on the report like on typical motor test reports, and the tester is KL. Could that be Kenny Lam? Well KL maybe Neptronix fell for it along with plenty of the fanboy club, but this time you're cold busted with your hand in the cookie jar simply making up numbers for a motor test report, and doing a pi$$ poor job of doing it.
How many more of these motor test reports can we get a copy of before they fix them?
You should do a little checking before helping spread Xlyte propaganda. What is the source of that test report? I ask because it appears to be fabricated. I knew something didn't smell right when I saw the peak efficiency of 91.8%...yeah right. Low and behold the numbers don't even make sense. Power in isn't voltage X current, and efficiency isn't power out / power in. There's no signature or stamps on the report like on typical motor test reports, and the tester is KL. Could that be Kenny Lam? Well KL maybe Neptronix fell for it along with plenty of the fanboy club, but this time you're cold busted with your hand in the cookie jar simply making up numbers for a motor test report, and doing a pi$$ poor job of doing it.
How many more of these motor test reports can we get a copy of before they fix them?
Lol, take it up with kenny at crystalyte. He sent me the sheet when i asked for a higher power graph for the motor.
You'll notice that the 'crown' motor also has similar numbers.
You'll also notice that the 'crown' 80 in the ebikes.ca simulator holds a nice 2,800w input continuous at 84% efficiency even in a 26" wheel.
Funny that you would accuse me of falsifying numbers when you are a motor vendor who has a vested interest..
You'll notice that the 'crown' motor also has similar numbers.
You'll also notice that the 'crown' 80 in the ebikes.ca simulator holds a nice 2,800w input continuous at 84% efficiency even in a 26" wheel.
Funny that you would accuse me of falsifying numbers when you are a motor vendor who has a vested interest..
neptronix said:
Motor vendor or not, a test report that promises peak eff. at 73% no load speed makes zero sense, and I already pointed this out in my earlier post. The H3540 has its peak eff. of 84% at about 86% of its no load speed, exactly halfway between 100% and the falsely claimed 73% of the 4080. IMO There is no BLDC hub motor that has this point under 80%, and if there is, the eff. is definitely not going to be far below 85% due to copper losses.
Looking at the sheet more closely, all the numbers are corrupt to begin with. Example, in line 12, the motor even works as a perpetual machine! Consumes 1066 watts and produces 1328 watts, at a whopping 125% efficiency, compared to the humbly advertised 80%. Brilliant!!!
John in CR
100 TW
neptronix said:
I didn't accuse you of any such thing. I did accuse you of helping spread propaganda. The H40 is not rated for 2500W continuous. I'd be surprised if it's even rated as 2500W, since virtually identical motors in all material respects have been rated as 1200-1500 motors for years.
The last pdf looks realistic and typical, but the other one is an obvious fabrication that doesn't even have the math correct to support the unbelievable numbers....not that you fabricated it, but you passed it along as support for incorrect arguments against the motor of the thread topic. I'm baffled as to why you would share it when what's wrong with it is so glaring. Didn't you look at it with any skepticism? I'm glad you did though, so KL's true colors can be put on display. You should stamp it with large bold red print "Falsified Report" and leave it up.
BTW, Miuan and Cwah's points about 2wd are correct, which is not readily apparent from looking at motor simulations.
Kingfish
100 MW
cwah said:
^ +1 Concise explanation. When I put mine into Cruise, one hub takes the load and the other tags along at low power and contributing only when needed.
~KF
StudEbiker
100 kW
Yes that could work, but even getting their hub to work with another controller and throttle is no simple feat.
*shrug* go play with the ebikes.ca simulator and enter the TC-80 motor and see how it performs if you don't trust the information that crystalyte is giving.
The h40xx series is the same dimensions ( has a bit less copper however ).
Look what happens to continuous power as you scale a motor up:
12lb 24mm Shengyi DD: 500w rated. Real performance is.. ??
14lb 28mm 9C DD: typically rated 750-1000w;
16lb 35mm magic pie & crystalyte 35xx: not formally rated 1250-1500w, but in simulations and real life, it will hold that continuous.
18/20lb 40mm Crystalyte h40/TC : not formally rated, but will hold 2500w continuous in various simulations
24 / 26lb 50mm Cromotor: power sheets from multiple vendors indicate that it will hold 4000w continuous or more on high volts. The worst formal rating i have seen is 3000w, and that's for the high speed winding ( graph from 9C is attached ) on low-ish voltage.
The h40xx series is the same dimensions ( has a bit less copper however ).
Look what happens to continuous power as you scale a motor up:
12lb 24mm Shengyi DD: 500w rated. Real performance is.. ??
14lb 28mm 9C DD: typically rated 750-1000w;
16lb 35mm magic pie & crystalyte 35xx: not formally rated 1250-1500w, but in simulations and real life, it will hold that continuous.
18/20lb 40mm Crystalyte h40/TC : not formally rated, but will hold 2500w continuous in various simulations
24 / 26lb 50mm Cromotor: power sheets from multiple vendors indicate that it will hold 4000w continuous or more on high volts. The worst formal rating i have seen is 3000w, and that's for the high speed winding ( graph from 9C is attached ) on low-ish voltage.
Attachments
John in CR
100 TW
You're still using the wording "continuous power rating" in place of "rated power", but they are 2 different animals. Industrial motors are rated based on continuous operation, and that's why a several thousand watt motor can easily weigh 100lbs.
You can go play with a different motor in a simulator all you want, but when on what is entitled "Motor Test Report" the Volts times Amps doesn't equal Power in, and Power Out divided by Power In doesn't equal efficiency (in this case they aren't even close and peak motor efficiency is way overstated.), then the motor test report is simply a fabrication of numbers typed on a page.
Yes, such a report should be publicly shared publicly, but only after adding in large bold red print that it is a complete and obvious fabrication. Leaving it attached as-is is a disservice to the community, and based on past history with this vendor it would also be a disservice to simply pull it like nothing happened.
You can go play with a different motor in a simulator all you want, but when on what is entitled "Motor Test Report" the Volts times Amps doesn't equal Power in, and Power Out divided by Power In doesn't equal efficiency (in this case they aren't even close and peak motor efficiency is way overstated.), then the motor test report is simply a fabrication of numbers typed on a page.
Yes, such a report should be publicly shared publicly, but only after adding in large bold red print that it is a complete and obvious fabrication. Leaving it attached as-is is a disservice to the community, and based on past history with this vendor it would also be a disservice to simply pull it like nothing happened.
neptronix said:
a bit unfair to compare the shengyi to motors that cost couple times more, won't fit regular dropouts and can't use gears.
please let's discuss this motor and other motors in the same class. everyone will agree there are more powerful pushbike compatible motors. however they are all heavier, so for those who happen to cruise at medium speeds most of the time, and like to pedal their bikes all the time, this motor is an interesting choice.
the discovery of blatantly made up "test report" by Ken is a nice and unwanted extra, but it's off topic.
I only brought this up because people were talking about using two motors and i wanted to show that using one larger motor would give you better power and efficiency per weight.
Yes, you can fit a h40xx, h35xx, or magic pie into a standard dropout and use gears.
Anyway, my point is lost, so i'll stop contributing to this thread now and let it be.
Yes, you can fit a h40xx, h35xx, or magic pie into a standard dropout and use gears.
Anyway, my point is lost, so i'll stop contributing to this thread now and let it be.
John in CR
100 TW
neptronix said:
Wow! Really? None of the H40xx motors are even listed. You're obviously talking about the Crown, but big deal anyway. I can do Ebikes.ca simulations that have the lowly 9C 2805 running over 2500W continuous at mid 80's efficiency, and at 10kph higher speed. I can also do quite realistic condition sims with the TC-80 and 2500W input where it overheats in under 10mins, so just stop with the propaganda. Their products are nothing special, cost about double, and based on business ethics alone for which ES members have paid a heavy price, they should be boycotted. Instead the opposite occurs. Here we catch their head guy in a blatant fabrication of a totally misleading motor test report, and you act like it's nothing. Imagine if anyone else did that, they'd be thrown to the wolves.
cwah
100 MW
John in CR said:
Seriously, I'm looking for a decent motor currently and I'm considering them. Crystalyte is about the only one to provide high power motor that fit normal bike dropout. And their efficiency is better than most chinese motor.
That's the reason they are charging premium. not because of ethic but because of the lack of decent competitors in the market.
John in CR
100 TW
cwah said:
That's the kind of illusion the Xlyte fanboy club has created and it's crapola. The motors have a generic stator and rotor that are purchase on the open market there. They actually made the X4 and X5 motors with the special splayed stator lams for reduced cogging, which were unique and made the Xlyte name. The newer stuff isn't, they just have Xlyte covers made to slap on generic parts. The newer motors have the same efficiency as run of the mill stuff.
High powered motors shouldn't have 10mm flats, because it leads to snapped axles. KL puts them on, because he doesn't care if the axles snap off and the end user ends up under a car.
cwah
100 MW
Do you mean buying any chinese motor would be the same as a crystalyte?
I can't see any chinese motor with 135mm dropout as powerful as the TC range motors.
The closest one I've found is this one from leafbike:http://www.leafbike.com/products/e-scooter-hub-motor/16-inch-electric-motor/updated-16-inch-48v-1000w-front-hub-motor-984.html
I can't see any chinese motor with 135mm dropout as powerful as the TC range motors.
The closest one I've found is this one from leafbike:http://www.leafbike.com/products/e-scooter-hub-motor/16-inch-electric-motor/updated-16-inch-48v-1000w-front-hub-motor-984.html
Report after 800km on the Shengyi motor with a 25A sensorless controller. Runs OK but not quite as nice as the 9C ran on sensored. Found out the sensor was OK from the start, it was a faulty controller, so I'll use a 6x4110 sensored XC controller at 30A from now on. Tested the winding speed with both sensorless and sensored controller and the no load speed was 840rpm at 75V, actually close to the fastest 2806/2805 9C windings. So it would run better on lower voltage than my 20S battery. The good thing is it hasn't overheated yet, nor has the cheapo controller. So far so good.
t3sla
10 kW
Thanks for the update.
I've started using SG lately as an alternative to Bafang, so far all's well, quality seems consistent and you get more bang for your buck.
I've started using SG lately as an alternative to Bafang, so far all's well, quality seems consistent and you get more bang for your buck.
okay I start giving up on this motor. the hall continues to freeze intermittently, and this morning the stupid tiny bolts came totally loose and the single torque arm saved my ass from a nasty crash as the wheel half dismounted from the rear dropouts. I hate the axle design!
t3sla
10 kW
Try sensor less controller