Specialized Globe Haul Troubleshooting

DubP

10 mW
Joined
Mar 31, 2020
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20
Hello, I'm trying to troubleshoot my friend's Specialized Globe Haul ST. It went dead while he was riding. Battery charges up, there's 42V going up to the display. I checked all the connections, doesn't have the "too much dielectric" problem that's discussed on Reddit.

Does anyone have any info on troubleshooting? I get the feeling the drive system is the same as some other Chinese systems, anything similar I could draw from?

TIA!
 
What specifically happened just before it went dead, under what specific riding conditions, and how was it being used?

What exactly does "went dead" mean? Total power loss, no display, no lights, no motorcars, no luxuries? ;) Or just no assist, but still has lights, display etc? Or something else?

Do you happen to have any specific info about what the system on the bike is? Even pictures of the labels might help, if further info about them is needed fo troubleshooting. (not needed yet, until the above questions have been answered so we have a starting point).

I was going to look up the specs, manuals, etc on the manufacturer site, but they don't have any on the page for that bike. :roll:
The entire text of that page is copied below; the only "buttons" they have are to shop online or locate a retailer, neither of which would be helpful for getting specifications for the bike, or manuals, etc.



SAY HELLO TO THE

GLOBE HAUL ST​

More power means 5 levels of pedal assistance. More cargo means 419 lbs of carrying capacity. More everything means riding up to 60 miles or for 5.5 hours per charge.

Stock is limited​

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Yeah sorry I was a little vague about the specifics, I actually started the thread like 3 times but found myself going off on tangents, so I was trying to keep it terse.

Failure description: He charged it up, it sat for about a month, then he rode it in to work. On the way home the display went dark, and shortly after it lost power, dead. He pedaled it home. Charged the battery back up (it was not particularly low on charge in the first place). It remains dead, meaning the display won't turn on and the motor will not run.

From my research so far, the drive system (hub motor, potted controller, display, crank torque sensor, thumb throttle, and battery) seems to be supplied by one company, Acer MPS (mobile power systems). I could be wrong. But it's one of those closed systems where the battery, display, and controller are all interconnected with some sort of proprietary serial interface. There are two big power terminals on the battery that are not "turning on" meaning the BMS is not supplying voltage to the B+ terminal. I know it's charged though, because there is 42V on one of the smaller pins. Assuming that one is used for the charge indicator since I do see the 42V heading up to the display on two of it's 7 wires.

What I am really looking for is to see if anyone has experience with a similar proprietary system, maybe a Pedego or other consumer, non-hobbyist system. I am guessing they are all pretty much the same but since I don't know how they work it's hard for me to troubleshoot. I'm spoiled by my VESC based bikes where you have access to all schematics, firmware, etc.
 
Crazy that Acer, like the PC company, is like supplying ebike systems, right?

 
Specialized e-bikes are a closed system, specifically designed to resist modifications or repairs by anyone other than a Specialized dealer.

If you're enough of a sucker to buy one at their absurd prices, you're enough of a sucker to take it back to the dealer every single time something goes awry. I think of it as a self-punishing mistake.
 
Failure description: He charged it up, it sat for about a month, then he rode it in to work. On the way home the display went dark, and shortly after it lost power, dead. He pedaled it home. Charged the battery back up (it was not particularly low on charge in the first place). It remains dead, meaning the display won't turn on and the motor will not run.
Does he happen to know if the battery was running low according to the display on the system before the event, even though it didn't appear to be low per whatever was used to test that at recharge time?

One possibility is that even though the battery appears to be not empty, some cells could have a problem and be either low in capacity or high in resistance, causing unbalance, and if the difference between those cells adn the rest is great enough, the battery's BMS could have turned off the output to prevent damage to the cells or other problems, while still allowing charge. In this event, if the BMS has a balancing function that actually works, leaving it on the charger long enough (hours, days, or weeks) could fix the problem temporarily (a real fix requires replacing the problem cells).

Other possibilities depending on riding conditions, maintenance, etc., are water intrusion into something (buttons, wiring, etc), overload causing overheat of controller and FET failure, overcurrent causing battery BMS FET failure, vibration breaking a connection or wire somewhere (usually in cabling between devices, most often right at a connection or casing exit/entrance point, but sometimes inside a device).



From my research so far, the drive system (hub motor, potted controller, display, crank torque sensor, thumb throttle, and battery) seems to be supplied by one company, Acer MPS (mobile power systems). I could be wrong. But it's one of those closed systems where the battery, display, and controller are all interconnected with some sort of proprietary serial interface. There are two big power terminals on the battery that are not "turning on" meaning the BMS is not supplying voltage to the B+ terminal. I know it's charged though, because there is 42V on one of the smaller pins. Assuming that one is used for the charge indicator since I do see the 42V heading up to the display on two of it's 7 wires.

These types of systems could work in a few ways--they may provide power to the system brains via a smaller wire, and wait for a command or another voltage back from the brain to turn on the main outputs that power the controller FETs, etc.; in this event if the brain wont' turn the system on from this condition, it might be a brain or wiring/connection fault rather than a battery issue.

Without a second battery or system to verify which part is a problem, it's hard to know for sure which one is at fault. Even if you have a power supply that can provide the right voltage to connect in place of the main battery leads (while still leaving all the other battery wires connected), if the battery has a problem with communication to/from the brain, the brain may still not do a normal powerup, so you still don't really know which one is the root cause.

If you have access to the inside of the battery you can verify if the cells are all the same voltage, which would at least eliminate that issue.

If you can get more exact details (from the rider/owner) of the ride leading up to the problem, and of the moments just before it, it might point to more specific scenarios to narrow things down.

Beyond that, unplugging and replugging every connnector, and if that doesn't change anything, then verifying that all connections are good, not just visually but electrically testing from inside one device all the way to the next, would eliminate those issues (but this is time consuming and risks damage to manipulated devices and cables).


What I am really looking for is to see if anyone has experience with a similar proprietary system, maybe a Pedego or other consumer, non-hobbyist system. I am guessing they are all pretty much the same but since I don't know how they work it's hard for me to troubleshoot.
Pedegos are actually pretty generic stuff, the ones I've seen use just main + and - from the battery.

Ones that are proprietary and only work with all-original parts vary a lot, from a simple analog voltage or resistive ID pin (that can sometimes be spoofed) to canbus or modbus or other serial communications, to entirely proprietary setups, most of which can't be bypassed (there are a few that have managed it, like Vandalen's board to go inside Yamaha systems over here:


Sudden complete powerlosses during a ride are almost always battery or connection issues, if there were no other events leading up to the problem. Since you weren't riding it, there is a LOT of information you don't have that might lead to different troubleshooting paths if you did. Sometimes the tiniest bit of info that seems unimportant is the key to a solution to some problem. Sometimes it's just useless info that gets in the way of seeing the real issue. :/
 
If you're enough of a sucker to buy one at their absurd prices, you're enough of a sucker to take it back to the dealer every single time something goes awry. I think of it as a self-punishing mistake.

That's just like, your opinion man.

Actually, I would agree, but I get that there's a much wider world of people that are non technical and just want to ride their ebikes. I think fully packaged products are made proprietary just so that amateurs can't make dangerous modifications, or at least if they do they will have to hack it enough that it's hard to sue the manufacturer if something goes wrong. Still, this specialized cargo bike is seriously cool, so well built (the bike part anyway) that it's gotta get fixed and I would hate to see my buddy spend megabucks watching the specialized techs throw parts at it. So I'll continue trying to find that root cause.
 
Most people I've known prefer to have something (of whatever technology type, not just ebikes or even computers) that "just works" and that has places they can take it that will "just fix it", with cost being a secondary factor. When something isn't fixable they usually just get a new one and toss the broken one out (it's how I used to get a fair amount of the stuff I have frankensteined into useful stuff for myself; these days I don't accept most of the stuff people get rid of since I just don't have time to do anything with it; only if I can think of some reasonably immediate use for it or know that I can use it for spare parts for things I have to keep functional do I usually get or keep any of these things...always feels like a huge waste but I just don't have room or time or energy to deal with it all, even though I often regret not having some particular thing every now and then when I run across a use for it).


Not very many people are willing to deal with all the stuff needed to DIY anything...even if they have little money they'd rather spend it on a complete integrated system than have to figure out anything.


So I like helping anyone that is willing to try to build or fix stuff; I just don't have the answers most of the time (just guides on how to find the info to lead to the answer, usually).
 
Does he happen to know if the battery was running low according to the display on the system before the event, even though it didn't appear to be low per whatever was used to test that at recharge time?

One possibility is that even though the battery appears to be not empty, some cells could have a problem and be either low in capacity or high in resistance, causing unbalance, and if the difference between those cells and the rest is great enough, the battery's BMS could have turned off the output to prevent damage to the cells or other problems, while still allowing charge. In this event, if the BMS has a balancing function that actually works, leaving it on the charger long enough (hours, days, or weeks) could fix the problem temporarily (a real fix requires replacing the problem cells).
I'll get the charger and leave it on there for a long time, thanks for the advice, that would be cool if it works. I was thinking along the lines of the BMS Having shut down due to imbalance since it's obviously off at the power terminals. But before I open the battery to check the individual voltages I wanted to make sure it doesn't need a contact closure or other signal on some of the other battery pins to turn on. The other test I did was to connect my lab supply to the bike and apply battery voltage. I didn't do it with the battery in place though, and nothing would turn on. So yeah like you mentioned, I still didn't know if the issue is on the bike side or if there's a signal from the BMS that needs to be there before it will turn on.

I think my next move will be to try to get the display to power up. I'll assume it a 5V power/return on two of its 7 pins, now just gotta choose the right ones.

If it all goes to hell, I do have an extra QS205 and Sabvoton in my cabinet...
 
I think my next move will be to try to get the display to power up. I'll assume it a 5V power/return on two of its 7 pins, now just gotta choose the right ones.
Can't really say for this system, but if it was like the typical display on nonproprietary controller/display sets, it would not use 5v for anything other than it's serial TX/RX wire pair.

Everything else in typical displays is battery voltage or ground--battery voltage goes into one wire on the display (from the controller's main power bus for the FETs, which is always connected to the battery unless there's a physical switch somewhere), and the display is thus always actually "on" inside, it's MCU running in some mode, waiting for the power button to be pressed (all the internal display stuff powered by it's own LVPS making battery voltage into whatever is needed for all the display parts. Pressing the power button wakes the MCU and it then turns on a transistor / FET switch to pass battery voltage back to the controller's own LVPS that then powers all the controller brain/internals, and all the stuff that runs on 5v outside the controller (motor halls, throttle, PAS, etc).

Dunno if htis system does this or not.

If it all goes to hell, I do have an extra QS205 and Sabvoton in my cabinet...
FWIW, the motor itself probably is a completely normal 3-phase BLDC. It might not have standard UVW/ABC hall sensors, so it might have to be used sensorless, but it would probably work with "any" sensorless-capable ebike controller.
 
Maybe no 5V you say? Interesting! Because I did verify that with the battery installed, there is 42V (battery voltage) heading up to the display. I was assuming that was only used for the charge indicator and that there should have been another 5V power line going up to drive the logic. If it's supposed to run directly from the battery voltage (which is present) maybe it's just the display that failed. I might pry open the display to see if it looks like anything died in there. Thanks again!
 
Hi guys, I just wanted to circle back with some closure on this thread. Since I didn't have any schematics or connector pinouts, I couldn't figure out a troubleshooting plan. I checked some voltages, but did not find anything obviously wrong.

So my friend took the bike in to a dealer that services Specialized bikes. Specialized sent them a full set of cables and electronics to swap test with. They found a 'y' cable that when replaced brought the bike back to life. I think it routed between the display, thumb throttle, and controller. So, y'know, good deal. Also they covered it under warranty.

I went riding with him once since and that bike has great power. We're still planning to swap in a VESC or Sabvoton at some point when factory service becomes unavailable, but he's back on it for now.

Thanks for the patient responses to my admittedly vague queries. :)
 
Did you do an autopsy on the failed Y cable? Curious to know what exactly failed there. Seems like the factory kind of knew what happened, like they had seen it before. Maybe a mfr. defect that possibly affects many units?
 
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