TylerDurden
100 GW
Differnt strokes...GASSTINKS said:
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The "3,000 Mile Rule"
- Thread starter safe
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Link
1 MW
Indeed...
Link
1 MW
No, but some of them do sound a lot like jets. F-14 > Supra. :wink:
truckerzero
100 W
there are a lot of people that will be like me and love the idea of electric for the back and forth to work thing but still have to have a loud noise maker just for the
sheer excitement of it
some die hard motorheads will never give up their gas vehicles
i bet if we ran out of oil tomorrow they would be home brewing ethanol for no other reason than they cant give up the sound a ice makes
and no a loud stereo playing engine sounds wont healp
it all goes back to when you cliped a baseball card to your bicycle to make noise when you were a kid
sheer excitement of it
some die hard motorheads will never give up their gas vehicles
i bet if we ran out of oil tomorrow they would be home brewing ethanol for no other reason than they cant give up the sound a ice makes
and no a loud stereo playing engine sounds wont healp
it all goes back to when you cliped a baseball card to your bicycle to make noise when you were a kid
Link
1 MW
truckerzero said:
This could explain a lot. I never did this. :?
ebinary
100 W
- Joined
- Dec 12, 2007
- Messages
- 145
SLA's suck - well, they suck the feeling of control out of a vehicle. Thats the main reason I won't use SLA again. I've had two sets of three large SLA glassmats fail by trying (unsuccessfully) to follow the manufacturer advice on keeping them topped off.
Because SLAs will quickly fail if left discharged, you need to have a charger at both ends of your commute.
Because SLA's self discharge (slowly, but regularly) , you must religiously top off disconnected SLA's monthly to ensure best performance (and avoid sulfation). I have 3 sets of SLAs I don't really use anymore, that I am still prompted to top off monthly. Pain in the butt.
I feel like I got my life back not sweating SLA babysitting practices. A123 4ever.
If I wasn't driving my car more than 3000 miles, I still wouldn't opt for a hand crank to save the cost of a starter.
Because SLAs will quickly fail if left discharged, you need to have a charger at both ends of your commute.
Because SLA's self discharge (slowly, but regularly) , you must religiously top off disconnected SLA's monthly to ensure best performance (and avoid sulfation). I have 3 sets of SLAs I don't really use anymore, that I am still prompted to top off monthly. Pain in the butt.
I feel like I got my life back not sweating SLA babysitting practices. A123 4ever.
If I wasn't driving my car more than 3000 miles, I still wouldn't opt for a hand crank to save the cost of a starter.
youreaspeedemon
1 mW
This is a bit off topic of the 3000 mile rule.
I would give up the ice if cars actually were able to perform like the Tesla and have a 200 mile range with the ability to charge within a couple minutes, hell yeah I would, and I consider myself a bit of a gear head I've driven, worked on and owned Muscle Cars, Porsche's, Crotch Rockets, Dirt Bikes, Mini Bikes. I worked for Ford a while back and the Electric Company had a fleet of Electric Rangers, they definitely produced the EV Grin and as heavy as they were back in the 90's, they still moved out pretty well.
When the prices of lithium or whatever is next that proves to be better than lithium and the performance and range exists, put these gear heads behind the wheel of an EV that has 4 wheel hub motors singing the song of 700 plus hp available almost instantly and they will bow down to the electric, people will then refer to the ice as mere toys comparatively speaking check this out http://www.lightningcarcompany.co.uk/ .
Enter the Gear head of the future (the majority of people on this site) people will figure out how to crack the code on new electric cars, over volt them, etc... producing high performance electrics, similar to all the people out there tuning their Honda Civics and equivalent. Look at the TZero http://www.forbes.com/2003/10/21/cx_dl_1021vow.html it does 0 to 60 mph in 3.6 seconds, add a small generator like the Volt is planned to have and there you go.
It's just a matter of time before performance cars with the above type specs are available to average Joes, technology just needs to catch up, look at how much money the first VCR's, Beta Max or DVD's players cost, now you can pick them up at Walmart on sale for $25.
They do make noise as well, just a different kind of noise, and if you're not satisfied with that, a pack of baseball cards are pretty cheap.
truckerzero said:
truckerzero said:
I would give up the ice if cars actually were able to perform like the Tesla and have a 200 mile range with the ability to charge within a couple minutes, hell yeah I would, and I consider myself a bit of a gear head I've driven, worked on and owned Muscle Cars, Porsche's, Crotch Rockets, Dirt Bikes, Mini Bikes. I worked for Ford a while back and the Electric Company had a fleet of Electric Rangers, they definitely produced the EV Grin and as heavy as they were back in the 90's, they still moved out pretty well.
When the prices of lithium or whatever is next that proves to be better than lithium and the performance and range exists, put these gear heads behind the wheel of an EV that has 4 wheel hub motors singing the song of 700 plus hp available almost instantly and they will bow down to the electric, people will then refer to the ice as mere toys comparatively speaking check this out http://www.lightningcarcompany.co.uk/ .
Enter the Gear head of the future (the majority of people on this site) people will figure out how to crack the code on new electric cars, over volt them, etc... producing high performance electrics, similar to all the people out there tuning their Honda Civics and equivalent. Look at the TZero http://www.forbes.com/2003/10/21/cx_dl_1021vow.html it does 0 to 60 mph in 3.6 seconds, add a small generator like the Volt is planned to have and there you go.
It's just a matter of time before performance cars with the above type specs are available to average Joes, technology just needs to catch up, look at how much money the first VCR's, Beta Max or DVD's players cost, now you can pick them up at Walmart on sale for $25.
They do make noise as well, just a different kind of noise, and if you're not satisfied with that, a pack of baseball cards are pretty cheap.
youreaspeedemon
1 mW
ebinary said:
Yes and no, I've been running 4 18ah in series for several months now, yes I carry a charger with me and charge it at both ends of my commute but it works for me, the secret is to have higher quality chargers, I spent the extra money and bought 2 Soneil chargers, one for the second set of batteries that gets rotated in every 10 cycles, and one to carry with me. I switch them every 10 cycles to get more longevity out of them and it allows the Soneil charger to do it's thing with the supposed removal of light sulfation.
The proposition of the 3000 mile rule was not to say one sucks more than another, but to acknowledge the fact that they have their place with budget minded individuals that don't have the extra $600-$1200 for batteries, and for people that aren't going to use it them as much as the hard core bikers that ride every day regardless of weather, I'm sure there are many other reasons as well but I'll let others get into their reasoning.
Yes they're heavy - currently about 50lbs on my bike
Yes they take longer to charge
Yes they have to be charged when used
Yes they are old technology
Will they work - yes
will they work for the people that decide to use them, yes
will they last 3000 miles - probably if cared for properly and not abused, a Cycle Analyst is a must to limit Amperage, I run mine about 1.2 C
do they require constant attention - no
do they require a battery management system - no, hooked in parallel the cells generally balance themselves balancing is not normally needed
do they give you the opportunity to obtain the EV Grin - absolutely, I average about 23-24mph commuting over 13.5 miles including stopping for stop signs and crosswalks, my max unassisted on the flats is 28mph and my max down hill pedaling my ass off was 39mph
Granted I would love to have LifePo4 batts but they are out of my range, I spent my money on the motor and controller so I don't have to upgrade them later when I wanted more power/speed, I will likely get better lighter batteries later but that is all I will need to get, I just can't justify them now because I'll be lucky if I break 1000 miles this year, SLA's are cheap, they work, and they are easy to configure, yeah so what they're heavy, and they suffer from Peukerts effect, and they don't like the really cold, I'm not sure on the really hot because I have A/C in my car. They also don't require dissecting cordless drill packs and trying to get them all wired up without frying them, then dealing with the bms's to get each sub pack charged, and then having to buy more chargers, and then having your setup cutout because of the bms etc... I will also likely wait a year or two for when there are more manufactures making high quality batts with warranties, and bms's that aren't likely to trip an over current draw, and will be able to be more or less maint. free, plug it in and forget it like with my SLA's.
Call me a simpleton if you'd like, hey I like plugging in my bike and forgetting about it, but I'm not going to bash anybody else for their choice of batteries. Safe made a good point with the 3000 mile rule in my opinion, it works for me and I'm sure it works for many others.
I agree that Lithium is where it is at and where electric cars and everything else is going, it just needs to be cheaper, and when they are, or when the next battery to come out that is even better than Lithium becomes available the ice will likely go the way of the dodo.
ebinary
100 W
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- 145
youreaspeedemon said:
Agree with your points. My point was more that - if you like convenience, regardless of expected mileage. If you like to be able to stop commuting for the whole winter and not care a lick about your bike. If you want your investment to last. And if you have the cash... go straight to lithium.
Yeah, SLAs work. I made the mistake of buying a pile of NiMH D cells that couldn't hold a candle to SLA (because D cells suck, but I didn't know that at the time).
Taking apart power tools may suck, but I now have three electric vehicles: Shredder (three-wheel leaner), Montague Currie/BMA, and a Haunted House Car (yes, you read that right) that all can run off the same set of 6 DeWalts. It would be impossible to reuse the same SLAs in these three very different applications. And it would be impossible to run a Haunted House Car all day on anything but lithium (two packs at a time, four packs always charging). So for me, lithium would have saved me $1000 if I'd just started there in the first place. Of course, they weren't available when I started out, but they are now!
JinbaIttai
100 W
I understand you are simplifying for the sake of analysis, but in doing so you are oversimplifying to the point of inaccuracy.
Other kinds of batteries can do things SLAs can't.
Whether it is either being able to climb hills without Peukert's law limiting it, or being able to leave it partially charged in order to charge it free at your starting location, the equation:
Most bang for the buck = cycle life + intial cost
is often incomplete.
Other kinds of batteries can do things SLAs can't.
Whether it is either being able to climb hills without Peukert's law limiting it, or being able to leave it partially charged in order to charge it free at your starting location, the equation:
Most bang for the buck = cycle life + intial cost
is often incomplete.
truckerzero
100 W
sla vs lithium is like new car vs old junker
new car is more upfront but cheaper in the long run if you take care of it and way nicer to boot
old junker is dirt cheap upfront but costs a lot mor over the years and has its limitations
ps what would you guys think of a electric car with a fuel cell that has a onboard water to hydrogen converter
it would be just like a battery electric car you plug in at night you just would have to fill the gas tank with water every now and then
what a car that runs on water when i was a kid me and my friends joked about this but science fiction is looking like science fact more and more every day
new car is more upfront but cheaper in the long run if you take care of it and way nicer to boot
old junker is dirt cheap upfront but costs a lot mor over the years and has its limitations
ps what would you guys think of a electric car with a fuel cell that has a onboard water to hydrogen converter
it would be just like a battery electric car you plug in at night you just would have to fill the gas tank with water every now and then
what a car that runs on water when i was a kid me and my friends joked about this but science fiction is looking like science fact more and more every day
safe
1 GW
- Joined
- Dec 22, 2006
- Messages
- 5,681
SLA's... lack Subcell Replacement Potential
I suspect that in many cases it's actually just one "subcell" within a 12 volt SLA block that fails and brings that unit down. If one "subcell" fails in something like a Solderless Tube of NiMh/NiCads you can just sort through the cells, find the offending one, then eliminate it. Doing this will keep the rest of the cells working more like new.
So part of the "problem" with SLA's (aside from the fact they wear out in the first place) is that there are severe limitations in the ability to maintain them. When SLA's go bad you have to replace the entire 12 volt unit.
SLA's are the equivalent of having a closed 6 cell pack.
I suspect that in many cases it's actually just one "subcell" within a 12 volt SLA block that fails and brings that unit down. If one "subcell" fails in something like a Solderless Tube of NiMh/NiCads you can just sort through the cells, find the offending one, then eliminate it. Doing this will keep the rest of the cells working more like new.
So part of the "problem" with SLA's (aside from the fact they wear out in the first place) is that there are severe limitations in the ability to maintain them. When SLA's go bad you have to replace the entire 12 volt unit.
SLA's are the equivalent of having a closed 6 cell pack.
julesa
10 kW
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If the energy storage mechanism in your car is batteries, why not just hook them directly to the electric motor? :? You might as well hook the fuel cell to a large halogen lamp in the trunk, surround the lamp with a bunch of solar cells, and run your motor off the solar cells. While you're at it, rig up a windmill generator on the roof to recharge the batteries. You're spending a lot of money to make the car less efficient.truckerzero said:
Why not just do the electrolysis in your garage and fill a hydrogen tank on the car? Hydrogen is an energy storage technology. Either put a fuel cell and hydrogen tank in the car, or put batteries in the car, not both.
Back on topic, I think you need to take range needs into account, as well as miles per year. We can get a 48v 20ah Lithium pack with a 2000+ cycle life for $600-$700 . I definitely want my ebike to be able to take me 20 miles or more, that's my average trip around my local area. Going that far with SLAs on a regular basis would reduce their cycle life, and I'd be replacing those SLAs several times over the life of a lithium pack, whether I was going 1500 miles a year or 5000.
truckerzero
100 W
julesa sorry i did not mean have a battery just a fuel cell and you could make your own hydrogen and only have to buy hydrogen at a gas station on long trips
as far as having the electolasis on board that would just be for convenience plug in car to electric and fill it with water
consumer friendly
as far as having the electolasis on board that would just be for convenience plug in car to electric and fill it with water
consumer friendly
safe
1 GW
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- 5,681
The SLA Scaling Question
I'm beginning to wonder if there is something about the idea that smaller scale SLA batteries are more prone to early failure than larger ones. My experience with larger cells that were of low cost and probably lower quality was actually very good and it prompted this thread.
I've switched over to smaller 18 Ah cells compared to my original 38 Ah cells and even accounting for the difference in "C" rates (it's now a lot higher) the smaller one's have already developed a problem after only a thousand miles or so. One cell went bad.
Could it be that "bigger is better"?
Do the bigger capacity SLA's have a built in higher reliability to them just because of the physics of how SLA's are put together?
Or did I just buy some cheap small cells and this is an exception?
I'm beginning to wonder if there is something about the idea that smaller scale SLA batteries are more prone to early failure than larger ones. My experience with larger cells that were of low cost and probably lower quality was actually very good and it prompted this thread.
I've switched over to smaller 18 Ah cells compared to my original 38 Ah cells and even accounting for the difference in "C" rates (it's now a lot higher) the smaller one's have already developed a problem after only a thousand miles or so. One cell went bad.
Could it be that "bigger is better"?Do the bigger capacity SLA's have a built in higher reliability to them just because of the physics of how SLA's are put together?
Or did I just buy some cheap small cells and this is an exception?
truckerzero
100 W
this is just a opinion but i would use smaller marine deepcycle over sla since you can service the water/acid
what ive concluded is sla is not as good as marine/deep cycle battery for deepcycle since the lead plates are thicker in marine deep cycle batterys
thicker plates mean better deep cycling and longer life
the thickest plates in a lead acid battery are found in forklift batterys (3 times thicker than deepcycle or golf cart batterys)and they typicaly last 10 to 15 years
and actually should be discharged to 80% dod before recharge per forklift battery manufacturer
and the way a forklift uses power is simular to our application as is a golf cart or trolling motor in a marine deep cycle battery
ps ive seen marinedeepcycle batterys that you can service the water/acid as small as 30ah
in a u1 size catagory(lawn mower size bttery)
the thicker the plates the better the deepcycleing and life
and the thicest plates are found in marine deep cycle batterys and golfcart batterys
by the way the thickest plates in a consumer battery is the golfcart batterys made by crown battery but i dont know if they
make a u1 size battery which is the size you would wnt for a bike like safes bike in his avatar
these are only my opinons and would love to hear any opposing views
what ive concluded is sla is not as good as marine/deep cycle battery for deepcycle since the lead plates are thicker in marine deep cycle batterys
thicker plates mean better deep cycling and longer life
the thickest plates in a lead acid battery are found in forklift batterys (3 times thicker than deepcycle or golf cart batterys)and they typicaly last 10 to 15 years
and actually should be discharged to 80% dod before recharge per forklift battery manufacturer
and the way a forklift uses power is simular to our application as is a golf cart or trolling motor in a marine deep cycle battery
ps ive seen marinedeepcycle batterys that you can service the water/acid as small as 30ah
in a u1 size catagory(lawn mower size bttery)
the thicker the plates the better the deepcycleing and life
and the thicest plates are found in marine deep cycle batterys and golfcart batterys
by the way the thickest plates in a consumer battery is the golfcart batterys made by crown battery but i dont know if they
make a u1 size battery which is the size you would wnt for a bike like safes bike in his avatar
these are only my opinons and would love to hear any opposing views
TylerDurden
100 GW
Agree w/ TZ. (I gotta get a 12V D-C from Crown for one of the Citicars next week.)
BTW, Crown is moving a factory from Mexico to the USA. That's more like it.
Last fall, Crown Battery Manufacturing Co. decided to close a plant it bought in Reynosa, Mexico, and move the jobs to its Ohio home base, adding 25 workers to the 400 it already employed.
"We're shipping batteries, which are big and heavy," says Hal Hawk, the company's chief executive.
Mr. Hawk estimates shipping to customers, who tend to be clustered in the Midwest, was adding 5% to 10% to the cost of the Mexican-made batteries, which he says also suffered from quality-control problems. The smallest batteries are 20-pounders for lawnmowers, but they also make 29,000-pound giants for running underground mining machines in places like southern Illinois.
"They were traveling 2,000 miles to get to those major customers," says Mr. Hawk, and all indications are that fuel surcharges on the trucks would just keep growing.
http://blogs.dc-intl.com/mt1/this_just_in/2008/06/heres-an-unforeseen-consequenc.html
BTW, Crown is moving a factory from Mexico to the USA. That's more like it.
Last fall, Crown Battery Manufacturing Co. decided to close a plant it bought in Reynosa, Mexico, and move the jobs to its Ohio home base, adding 25 workers to the 400 it already employed.
"We're shipping batteries, which are big and heavy," says Hal Hawk, the company's chief executive.
Mr. Hawk estimates shipping to customers, who tend to be clustered in the Midwest, was adding 5% to 10% to the cost of the Mexican-made batteries, which he says also suffered from quality-control problems. The smallest batteries are 20-pounders for lawnmowers, but they also make 29,000-pound giants for running underground mining machines in places like southern Illinois.
"They were traveling 2,000 miles to get to those major customers," says Mr. Hawk, and all indications are that fuel surcharges on the trucks would just keep growing.
http://blogs.dc-intl.com/mt1/this_just_in/2008/06/heres-an-unforeseen-consequenc.html
safe
1 GW
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- Dec 22, 2006
- Messages
- 5,681
I'm using half U1 size, so that's not going to help my situation. It seems that the U1 is the product that is most common and most durable. It's more or less the "standard" and I would guess because of competition that the worst products go out of business. (thank god for free markets or we would never get the crappy stuff to fail... imagine if the government protected lousy battery companiestruckerzero said:
)My guess is that the U1 battery being run at lower "C" rates is about as good as one can hope for (that's what my old one's were) but these half sized cells just seem less durable from the start.
I'm using a lot higher "C" rate however, so it's not a fair comparision.
truckerzero
100 W
safe everything is a compromise
the thicker the plates the longer the life but it makes a heaveyer battery
forklift batterys are denser than any thing else probably 10 to 20% heavyer per watt hour than a sla or deep cycle
and lead acid is way to heavy tobegin with
i think lead acid could make a decent motorcycle because for stability you do want some weight
and if you dont need more than about a 30 mile range i think thats very doable at a reasonable weight
plus your "bikes" are almost light motorcycles anyway
maby a bike in the future designed around a u1 battery and use the marine deepcycle which i think would have the longest life in a lead acid battery
the thicker the plates the longer the life but it makes a heaveyer battery
forklift batterys are denser than any thing else probably 10 to 20% heavyer per watt hour than a sla or deep cycle
and lead acid is way to heavy tobegin with
i think lead acid could make a decent motorcycle because for stability you do want some weight
and if you dont need more than about a 30 mile range i think thats very doable at a reasonable weight
plus your "bikes" are almost light motorcycles anyway
maby a bike in the future designed around a u1 battery and use the marine deepcycle which i think would have the longest life in a lead acid battery
