This is how A123 care about quality control

As a consumer of the A123 AMP20 prismatic pouch cell, I like everyone here, would like my battery pack to last a long time. See this post on the Best lifepo4 battery....period thread for my recent calculation of my getting 173 mpg equivalents, all things considered, at 2000 cycles. Stretching that to 3000+ cycles would enhance that bottom line. Wrinkles in the foil are not particularly high on my list of things to extend the usable life-time of my battery. What is:
  • a good-as-I-can-get battery pack build, as a hobbyist, so everything to do with pack construction
  • the considerations at A123 20Ah Pressure Thoughts--and bits for experiments
  • the A123 Battery Handling Guidelines, myself and anyone who has inspected, packaged, or shipped the cells, with respect to storage charge, temperature, etc.
  • the adequacy of both the cells and the kit at PROMOTING OSN A123 20ah packs, admittedly bootleg but apparently new, unblemished and 100% genuine with full un-welded tabs
  • keeping my pack 90%<SOC<10% on charge & discharge; this is harder to accomplish than one might think; the charge cycle in particular is charging up two of the 16S cells higher than the rest; no its not the cells, but the position of the cells in the pack, the far end of the stack closest to the anode
  • all the shocks, temperature changes, etc that come with riding my eBike and are out of my control
  • Theft! Yea, that'll really clobber the life-time value of the pack. My first A123 AMP20 pack was stolen off my porch as it was charging - took the charger too!
Note that I did not even put wrinkles in the foil on the list as I still consider it a negligible risk factor in comparison to all the rest. A lot of that list has to do with me - my choices, construction method, chargers, etc. What matters coming from A123 is not the wrapping, but the awesome nanophosphate engineering inside. And the many engineers like wb9k on team A123 who make that happen - thanks!
 
just trying to bring this thread to some kind of closure .
I must give A123 distributor - StorTronics due credit for how it handled 8 replacement cells for me.
StorTronics payed full cost of replacing those 8 cells: shipping, FedEx fees, etc. so it cost me zero to replace that cells.
I try to understand StorTronics,
they were getting cells for me from famous A123 , they fully trusted A123 , they never supposed cells would have defects like missing/sitting low isolator around terminals /as you can see clearly on my pictures/.
They were shocked themselves to see my pictures.
I strongly believe some members were intimidated by comments and all drama of this thread and decided not to post and get bashed by some.
Again pictures do not lie.
 
glad its all finished was a bit of a difficult discussion with such polarised views from different sides, very glad for you that stortronics paid for return shipping ( although a123 should have come to the party for that in my view)
Hope the cells last for a good decade or so.
 
despite 10 pages of this thread mystery of the A123 20 Ah pouch shown on A123 website is still not solved, not explain.
Unless you are blind or not paying attention,
this cell shown again below is completely different from what you get when you order from A123.
Is this pouch for real, is it a photoshop? Does it exists in how many copies????
Just for show, obvious to me.
This cell I was hoping to get when I was ordering from A123.
A123 can provide tons of tech specs and it is still different cell .
Look how perfectly smooth the surface is , vacuum job done perfectly,
A123 must change picture of AMP20 cell on its website.
Two photos:
- first photo of AMP20 cell from A123 website
- second photo of typical AMP20 cell A123 sells I chose randomly from 20 cells I got.
wb9k ,
what is this mysterious cell?
 

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The only responses you're going to get will be opinions, some more bent on hostility and avoidance of the facts.

Just accept this is a very unstable world with lithium, especially where pouches are involved. I know I have to jump in seriously sometime, but I'm sure happy to put that off.
 
The wonderful world of marketing and advertising
McDonalds-BigMac-1.jpg
 
miro13car said:
just trying to bring this thread to some kind of closure .
I must give A123 distributor - StorTronics due credit for how it handled 8 replacement cells for me
StorTronics payed full cost of replacing those 8 cells: shipping, FedEx fees, etc. so it cost me zero to replace that cells.
Click to expand...

I'm glad to hear you got the support I feel you deserve from StorTronics. And I'm sorry for the hassles that you had to endure because you got some problematic cells. Your return was instructive to the company on several fronts. Unfortunately, I've been instructed to "let this lie" in terms of the level of detail I can go into, so I can't get specific on the things that went wrong in your particular case. But some things did go wrong, and every one of those issues has been addressed and, I hope, will not be repeated. We are looking at modifying the cell packaging a bit. The method we use works fine when you're shipping whole pallets of boxes of cells, but when it's just a box or two, the requirements may change a bit. We will be watching for future cases of apparent cell shipping/handling damage, which does indeed appear to have happened with two of the cells you returned. I don't really consider damage by customs to be a prime suspect anymore, FWIW.

Please know that nobody at A123 ever had a problem with you returning these cells. Some of them turned out to be OK, but some of them were not. The only problem was with the method used and that we were never given a proper chance to respond in the normal way. In the end, it didn't change anything for you in terms of the outcome of this transaction.

As far as the rather idealized cell in the photo....we seriously asked if we should lower expectations a bit by changing the picture to a cell that is perhaps a bit less perfect, or some other means. Right now, I don't believe there are any plans to do so. Sales volumes through StorTronics are apparently far better than expected, and customer satisfaction so far appears to be very high. There have been no other A123 cells returned to them by anyone that I am aware of. If that trend continues, I suspect there will be little motivation to change the picture. I do expect you will see more documentation made available regarding these cells, so that is a positive step.

With that, I hope we can put this all behind us.

Pacem,
 
wb9k said:
Sales volumes through StorTronics are apparently far better than expected
Click to expand...
This Is great news. It's a win win for A123 and the hobbyist community. After watching this thread I feel very comfortable purchasing through StorTronics and will be soon.
 
sure dude. still waiting for any guidance. seems to me this thread has been a 100 percent waste if endlesss time
 
so looks like we are not getting two things promised by wb9k:
1. detailed report/analysis on the returned cells
2. a reserach paper by a123 showing wrinkles are not detrimental long term
 
point 2 on wrinkles by wb9k on page 2 this thread:
First, I'll address what I consider to be the valid concerns of the original poster, and perhaps most uncomfortable for A123. The wrinkles on the cell do occur sometimes, but are not a rejectable defect. We have mountains of data on these cells showing that there is virtually no difference in performance, longevity, or reliability vs. cells that appear perfectly flat. This includes life cycling, vibration, and all manner of environmental testing, some of which was performed at the direct request of the quality group. All of our other customers have seen this data and they accept these cells as well, so this community is not being singled out as a target for defective items here. I even have it on good authority that LG cells can also have this appearance and they sell them their customers too. Once you know the facts, this is not of real concern. I may be able to post some of the supporting data here for anyone who is curious.
Click to expand...

I may be able to post some of the supporting data here for anyone who is curious He's never come good with that offer, we would all like to see any data saying wrinkles are ok!
On page3 wb9k states
I'm looking for the data on the wrinkle cells. I was looking at it not more than a month or two ago, but couldn't find it when I was looking earlier today. Stay tuned.
Click to expand...
Stay tuned yes we are still waiting.
Suggest you reread the thread punxor, you will find point 2 regarding results of teardown/inspection of returned cells promised in the there also.
 
Has anyone posted photos of a build using these pouches. Sadly the best info is lost in bickering. If anyone reading can point to a good thread or source of information, please share?

Thanks,

Tom
 
Regarding wb9k promised results of investigation into these cells, heres what we've got thus far:
wb9k
I have a lot of investigation to do....
Will be reporting back....
Click to expand...
on page 6

wb9k has given us two paragrahs, one regarding wrinkles, and one regarding
isolation sealas
I haven't walked away from this...I'm still investigating.
I tore down the worst of the wrinkle cells today.
It had the issue I suspected (the others probably do not), but was actually a very mild
case. Another perfectly good cell on the scrap pile....I'll report more when I have had
time to get feedback from others.

The isolation seals constituted at least one, maybe two legitimate returns,
although the cells were indeed actually safe for use (there was no breach of isolation).
.............
I'll give more details on the the seal issue too (the problem that led to their release has b
een resolved for a while now) after conferring with the wider team at work.
Click to expand...
on page 7


If by "not OK", you mean "less than perfect",
then I think everyone understands this just fine as I've clearly laid out more or less what
the consequences of these minor, primarily cosmetic, defects is,
and I will be getting more specific about it soon
Click to expand...
on page 8
 
These sorts of situations are a nightmare. I suspect that someone made a commitment that became impossible to fulfill. No company wants it's laundry dragged through the mud of a forum with anonymous dweebs (self included) taking pokes. Add to that the simple fact we never get the real story, rather one colored by experiences, anger, and often unrealistic expectations. dnmun nailed it...
 
Big companies will usually have a Public Relations representative, who take care of
public problems in a civilised and professional manner.
In this case wb9k is a self appointed representitive of a123 on this forum, his wording often
includes "we"...as in "we at a123". Personally I dont think a technician should be giving
himself the role of a PR representative of the company. They would handle this in a very
differnt manner.
Some of the statements wb9k has used on this thread, he's allowing his personal emotions
and views to overshadow the simplicity of this thread.
Heres some of wb9ks' comments in this thread which are really quite unprofessional in my view.
He maybe a good technician, hats off to him for that, but as a PR person for a123, its not his job.

1.There was never any need to take to the internet with wild accusations


2. Miro, you are not going to use the internet to extort service from A123

3.The company will sooner shut this sales channel down altogether than bow to that behavior

4.If this is the kind of thing we can expect to see regularly,I assure you it won't last

5.Don't like it, don't play the game

6. are going above and beyond by replacing cells that were damaged by somebody else

7.Some of these other expectations just are not reasonable

8.I think the timeline and miro's comments about being OK with keeping these awful cells
if they're just made cheap enough speak for themselves.
I guess he doesn't like that I've exposed them, but that's Karma

9.This was not a good way for the wrinkle thing to be found out by the wider public,
that's obvious

10.I don't mind sharing this bit: There are lots of people who are starting to think this
whole incident was deliberately staged as an attempt to embarrass and malign A123 and/or
StorTronics publicly

11.Maybe I really shouldn't be on here at all

12.Since we're rattling sabres here again,
I'll pass on that StorTronics has put this buyer on a "do not sell" list

13.would never pull a stunt like the one that started this thread

14. I appreciate knowing that I'm not the only one here who isn't living in some
kind of vacuum

15.There is a world of difference between somebody like that, and somebody who thinks
it's OK to come here and start screaming "FRAUD"
Click to expand...
 
tomjasz said:
Has anyone posted photos of a build using these pouches. Sadly the best info is lost in bickering. If anyone reading can point to a good thread or source of information, please share?

Thanks,

Tom
Click to expand...

Arkmudi has a pretty good collection of links at the top of this page. See the handling guide for an official A123 document.

The pack design guidelines, also an A123 doc, is also posted elsewhere...I'll try to get you a link.

EDIT: Here's a link.... https://www.buya123products.com/uploads/vipcase/b24d4f5b63934c59d43e93b3bb4db60a.pdf
 
wb9k, I think you are handling this fiasco just fine. As you have stated, you are not authorized to publish total company information. Some of these guys go way beyond what is necessary info. Seems like they would rather squash the availability of A123 cells being sold to the NON OEM public.

Some of these people may not be aware of the Victpower fiasco, where you first appeared on this forum, to try to assess the recycled Fisker packs.

Thank you for all the info you have made available.

Harold in CR
 
whatever said:
wb9k said:
I may be able to post some of the supporting data here for anyone who is curious
Click to expand...
He's never come good with that offer, we would all like to see any data saying wrinkles are ok!
Click to expand...

"May" does not = will
"May" does not = promise to

Tomorrow I "may" offer someone a PB&J sandwich.
That does not mean I will ... that is not me offering the sandwich.
If I don't offer the sandwich that still completely fits with what I said I "may" do.

I think this approach of yours is counter productive ... As they say ... You'll attract more bees with honey.
:wink:

Further .. even if he did 'write it' .. even if he did want to .. he might be allowed to .. he doesn't own or control the company.
 
"Whatever" you are either clueless or trolling.

There's is now enough information in this thread for anyone with half a brain to read between the lines are draw a conclusion that has a good chance of being close to the truth.
 
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