Toasted Amped Bike geared motor ->now rewinding thread Pg. 2

[Skedgy Sky]

I let my friend ride my ebike around the park for some time. He returned it to me with a fried motor.

So first I thought: clutch broken? gears stripped? winding cooked?

The motor seemed to spin up fine with no load, I even tried it in reverse.
But with any load it did not work well.

Upon getting home I opened it up.


Smelled like barbecue sauce.

...so that's where the problem was.
I still inspected the gears. They are good.
Clutch, not sure? ... didn't really look that far into the motor.

I cut open the wye and made checked for continuity across phases. Everything's good there, no short circuits.

I soldered it back together, put some kapton tape around some exposed wires where the insulated fell off... and put the motor together.
Seems to run a little better, but still no good. It makes strange noises.. Kind of what air plane ESCs make when a motor is connected to them - that 3 tone melody.
Sort of works, but it also feels like either the clutch is broken or there are still shorts in the phases that are only apperant when power is applied through them (multimeter didn't catch'em).

What are symptoms of clutch being at fault?

I'm thinking next step is to search for shorts again and/or blow/uncover these shorts by passing a bunch of amps into the winding.
..or also replace the clutchy bit with the gears (assuming it's one assembly?) if that's cause of the motor making strange air plane ESC like noises and other clackity sounds at the same time.

FYI: I was putting 1500watts peak/continuous into it. ..didn't die on me as I pedalled with it, made sure not to go TOO hard on it the few days that I got to ride the bike after finishing it. ... my friend went WOT all the way around the park and up the hills at like 5mph. He's also 100 pounds heavier. I should'a seen this coming.

 

[neptronix]

:lol:

Those windings are toast, buddy.

I'm rather impressed that at the level of extreme abuse you put into the motor, that the gears or clutch did not fail first.
They clearly did a good job designing the motor. It's rated for 250-350w, after all.

Time to get a MAC or BMC hub. They will take that same load, turn WAY less of it into heat, and give you dramatically better performance.

 

[neptronix]

I have been here since 2010 and have seen dozens of pics of kentucky fried crispy motors in my day, but have never ever seen windings that black.

If only you had CNCed dicks on to the side covers and seen the plasma coming out. You could be as cool as liveforphysics.. you were so close... better luck next time

 

[Skedgy Sky]

With only 30 miles and it still showing signs of life, I don't think I'm going to retire the motor just yet.

I took it out for another ride. It seems to be doing fine at 150 watts... (around 2-3 amps, 66volts). A little noisy though, not how I remember it.
Any more than that, and it starts making noises. I want to assume the clutch is dead. Anywhere where I can get really cheap clutch assembly from US? ...

 

[neptronix]

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Thank you, i needed this.

 

[neptronix]

So, for kicks.. pull it apart and let's see what the gears look like at this point.

 

[triggeraa]

That hub is cooked and done for. Clutch wont do anything for it.

 

[Skedgy Sky]

Back here with "the little motor that could".
As requested, here are pictures of the gears:





And to top it off, a video of the motor still running but wishing it had a different owner.

[youtube]Q4NdAl8zhw4[/youtube]

So seeing that the electrical part of things is still working, gears are good, and the sound it's making says something... what will it be, broken clutch?

 

[melodious]

The gears look ok not sure about the clutch. Fill it with transmission fluid. I got rid of motor/gear noise from submerging my 250watt power hound in a flooded river.

Edit:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=53939
I guess putting trans oil in a geared motor is a no go. I'd still do it considering you have nothing to lose :wink:

 

[dogman dan]

Hell, you guys call that cooked? He didn't even combust the string tying up the winding.

No telling what the problem really is, if the windings are fine. But I'd be looking at the halls and connections to halls. That's what failed on the little gear motor I roasted. Look at all the wire. I once had that small motor I had running funny, and the problem turned out to be an overlooked rub on the phase wires. One phase was connected by a single strand of copper. So it ran, but above 150w, it stuttered. Look at your phase plugs, the wire, etc.

If that checks out, look at the controller.

 

[Skedgy Sky]

Hell, you guys call that cooked? He didn't even combust the string tying up the winding.

No telling what the problem really is, if the windings are fine. But I'd be looking at the halls and connections to halls. That's what failed on the little gear motor I roasted. Look at all the wire. I once had that small motor I had running funny, and the problem turned out to be an overlooked rub on the phase wires. One phase was connected by a single strand of copper. So it ran, but above 150w, it stuttered. Look at your phase plugs, the wire, etc.

If that checks out, look at the controller.

Some of the string that ties around the winding fell off upon opening the motor first time around.
As for halls. I'm using a sensorless controller; nothing wrong with it. Running it well within specs. Pretty new too. No damage done to it.
Power wires look fine everwhere; nothing hanging on by a thin piece.
You don't think it's the clutch? (did you have a listen to the sound it was making in the video)?

 

[neptronix]

I'm super impressed by the fact that the gears are still in that shape considering the almost jet black windings. The gear lube looks like it may be very cooked too, unless the gear lube they use is naturally black ( most formulations are usually white/gray/red ).

Okay, so maybe you can eat this expired piece of meat, but it's never going to be fresh again.

Get a MAC or even just an ordinary 9C type clone if you want to run this level of power ( though those are about 14lbs.. you obviously care about weight somewhat if you ordered a tiny geared motor, am i correct? )

 

[Skedgy Sky]

Get a MAC or even just an ordinary 9C type clone if you want to run this level of power ( though those are about 14lbs.. you obviously care about weight somewhat if you ordered a tiny geared motor, am i correct? )

I bought this one from another forum member a couple months ago. Wasn't till now that I used it.

If the motors you speak of weren't so expensive, I'd buy one.. or two (2WD).
If this motor is a $30 fix then I'd rather do it than paying over $100 for another motor...

 

[gogo]

It was probably ok until:

(did you have a listen to the sound it was making in the video)?

Doesn't the side cover establish a clearance/tolerance with its center bearing?

You could look for electrical symmetry by measuring resistances amongst the phases and then post your measurements to compare with what's expected. This would help reveal faults like Dogman described.

Hell, you guys call that cooked? He didn't even combust the string tying up the winding.

Unless the magic smoke was visibly escaping when your friend gave it back, you might have most of it still in there.

 

[flez1966]

I would not trust that motor.

1) insulation is burnt up so not holding wires firmly still
2) as you increase power the motor windings will jiggle about, flaking off more insulation
3) if we have not yet had a dead short or blown controller, goto 1

this is the spiral of death i predict for that motor. needs a rewind.

 

[Skedgy Sky]

Someone from the Facebook ES group comfirmed my clutch is gone.

I could weld the clutch into one position, but don't want to go that route if I don't have to.
As for rewinding the motor. . . that could come in the future - first need to solve the clutch issue.
Does anyone know where I can get a replacement part (clutch/one way bearing) for fairly cheap and quickly?

 

[flez1966]

new clutch wont stop the 123 above...

if you can get the stator out and re-dip it in a 5gal bucket of varnish etc, but they are usually dipped in a vacuum on a good motor to get the air pockets out

 

[Skedgy Sky]

new clutch wont stop the 123 above...

Insulation is pretty burnt but it is still holding on. It is not yet at the point of falling apart. I think the motor is still very usable, just for now needs a new clutch (if I can get assistance on hunting down the part).

 

[melodious]

Of my time spent surfing all the world's Ebike websites, I've never seen replacement parts for the small motors like the one you have there. If this is the case, I'd consider it as disposable.

If your so attached to this motor brand, you get a new hub w/o rim and replace it into the old rim. Otherwise, upgrade baby upgrade! :lol:

Hmmm, maybe you can contact Amped and ask if he wants to sell you a used/broken motor for parts salvage

 

[neptronix]

I've never heard of anyone finding replacement parts for these motors.

 

[Skedgy Sky]

I've never heard of anyone finding replacement parts for these motors.

Hmmm, maybe you can contact Amped and ask if he wants to sell you a used/broken motor for parts salvage

Oh darn, I must've made a bad decision buying this motor (worse decision was to let someone almost two times my weight ride it, UP HILL at a snails pace.) I always thought it was a 500W motor till you guys told me it was a 250W one.

I could try contacting them and seeing what they can do for me. I know someone else in my town who won a free kit from them, so they seem like friendly people. :wink:

 

[neptronix]

Some companies will sell it as a 400-500 watt motor, but in reality, it's in no way a 400-500 watt *continuous* motor. It's just a low speed winding that you can push fairly hard for a while.

Go check out some of the small motors on bmsbattery. You'll see about what a 250 watt geared motor looks like.

 

[Sunder]

This is the same thing that happened to my Q100. Spins perfectly on low load, as soon as you apply a moderate load to it, it makes a crunching noise, and won't propel you much faster.

At first, it was just if you went full throttle from stop. Then it was when you made sudden throttle changes. In the end, it was just moving.

Hope this isn't a thread hi-jack, but I have a couple questions:

1. How do you reinforce the clutch. Is ATF in the motor likely to make it slip more?
2. Is the Q100H likely to have a stronger clutch than the Q100?
3. Does the different reduction ratio of the Q100H more likely to put more or less stress on the clutch?

Apologies if you do consider this a thread hijack. I just thought since the source problem was the same, this would be a good thread to share information.

 

[neptronix]

Weren't you also putting 1000W or more into a 250W rated geared hub motor?

 

[Sunder]

Weren't you also putting 1000W or more into a 250W rated geared hub motor?

Err. Sort of correct. 1000w into a 350W rated geared hub motor.

I think we've well and truly proven the clutch will fail before the electrics.