very strange hall/magnet problem with new MAC hub motor..

Joined
Jul 19, 2019
Messages
16
Hi, there Gurus!
I bought a MAC rear hub motor from EM3EV and have been struggeling with phase wires and hall wires in all combination for days.
The motor will run smoothly, but when under a certain load, more than like 5 amps, it will stop after a squeeking noise.
Then I discovered something strange: When measuring the voltage on the hall wires, all go from 0 to 5 volts when turning the wheel, BUT ONLY WHEN TURNING THE WHEEL BACKWARDS. When turning it in the riding direction, all three measure 5 Volts all the time. Somehow the hall sensors dont "meet" the magnets when turning the wheel in the forward direction. No wonder there are problems riding it!
Have you guys any idea how this is possible, and what can I do to solve the problem?

It is this motor:
https://em3ev.com/shop/upgrade-mac-...y-option-and-black-case-controller-2000w-max/

I guess the controller is not the issue here, it has to do with magnets and hall sensors inside the motor?

Thanks!

Tore Stabell Kulo,
Norway
 
The motor has a freewheel clutch inside so when you turn the wheel in the forward direction, the motor is not moving. If you turn it backward, the clutch engages and the motor spins. This is normal.
 
What controller are you using? if it's an em3ev controller, the phases and hall colors should match 1:1.. what you have sounds like a hall/phase color mismatch.. or maybe a bad controller setting.
 
As noted above, the hall signal difference between forward and reverse is completley normal for a geared hubmotor.


The problem you're getting above a certain speed could be the controller's ERPM capability being too low for the motor, because of it's high pole count plus the gear reduction, so it spins very fast compared to a DD hubmotor for the same wheelspeed.

Some controllers simply can't handle that, and lose track of what the motor is doing, and fail to send the phase signals at the right time, causing the motor to stall or jam or make wierd sounds, but basically not to operate the way it needs to.

If the controller came from EM3EV with the motor, this is unlikely to be the problem. But if it's just a random one you had laying around, or from somewhere else, it could be the problem.


It could just be wrong phase/hall wiring combination, too, but that usually fails at any speed, not just higher than some particular speed.
 
Thank you very much for your kind advice, this is a good place to get answers.
The controller is a 35 dollar China-brand, it says 45 A. I can not get it to work with any combination of phase wires and hall sensor wires.
Then I tried a BBSHD controller, bought from EM3EV, and I still cannot get it to work.
The motor and the controller's phase wires should match, don't you think?



So I have tried every of the six combinations of hall wire combinations, where

one drives the wheel in reverse, with a noise,
four makes the wheel not move at all (stuck)
one makes the whell spin, looks promising.
But when applying throttle while sitting on the bike, the motor makes a grinding noise and is probably consuming a lot of power, so I only tried it for a second or so at a time.

Is it possible that the BBSHD controller is useless with the MAC motor, due to 60 degrees in stead of 120 degrees, or what not?
I should have ordered a controller with the wheel, and now it will take weeks before I get one, that is why I tried with the BBSHD controller.
Do anyone of you gurus know for a fact that the BBSHD controller will not work with the MAC motor?

Thanks a lot, all of you.

R,
Tore, Norway


Edit: I see in the "Known to Work Brushless Motor/Controller Wiring Diagrams" that almost no motor/controller combination has a color match of phase wires.. Maybe I have to try different combinations of phase wires, too?
 
it boils down to this question, I guess:
If I choose ONE way to connect the phase wires, and then try all six combinations of hall sensor wires, should one of them work?
Or do I have to choose ONE combination of the sensor wires and then try all six combinations of phase wires..?
Not easy to understand for a newbie;)

Tore, Oslo, Norway
 
A BBSHD controller should work with that motor. If you pick one phase wire combination, some combination of hall wires should make it run, but 50/50 chance it will be reverse, so you may need to try more than one phase combination. Ideally you want to measure the battery current while testing. A "good" combination will have a fairly low full speed/no load current.
 
the strange thing is that the combination that seems to work, wheel spinning fine when unloaded, is not working at all when trying to start with me on the bike. It sounds a bit like if the motor was made for moving 5 pounds around, not a person. Or if it was geared the opposite way, made for 100 miles pr hour, impossible to start from standstill.
Is it normal that the wheel will spin normally unloaded if there is a wrong phase wire/hall wire combination?
I had one combination that made it go in reverse, should I try that one and swap two of the phase leads to get it go forward?
And there is no reason to do it the other way around, to choose one combination of the hall sensor wires and then try all six of the phase wires?
 
by the way, out of the BBSHD there are six wires instead of five in the hall sensor connector, but I think I have got it right when using red/black for 5V and the next three for hall sensor wires. The sixth, purple wire is for something else, I hope;)
 
I don't suppose the cheap controller has a learn connector. A lot of the cheap ones now does have the teack/learn connectors.

I would start with crossing the blue and green phase as well as the halls. If not the green and yellow. Those sere the most common for my MACs, with odd controllers.

Using a BBs controller would also need heatsinking, I believe.

Dan
 
torestabell said:
by the way, out of the BBSHD there are six wires instead of five in the hall sensor connector, but I think I have got it right when using red/black for 5V and the next three for hall sensor wires. The sixth, purple wire is for something else, I hope;)
Right. I don't know what the purple wire is for either, but sounds like you have the rest correct.

With some incorrect combinations it is possible to make the motor spin OK with no load but choke under load. BBSHD should be good for 30A battery current. Best if you can measure battery current somehow.
 
Yes, it sounds like you have a false positive combo for forward, ie spins the wheel but not good enough torque to ride. Swap 2 of the halls or phases and then find the correct combo for forward changing the other set of wires. The best way to be sure the combo is correct is by measuring the no-load current at WOT, which should be relatively low with a correct wiring config. If you don't have a way to measure current, be careful testing by riding as a bad combo causes high current under load that can quickly blow a controller or overheat the motor. If it doesn't take off well don't keep trying to go.
 
Guys, most of what's been said on this topic above is above my pay grade. That in mind, I recently ordered a MAC 12t that I plan on swapping into my KT equipped bike (currently equipped with a 1500w DD). Shortly after ordering from em3ev, I received the following note, which I hope will provide me with enough guidance where my install goes reasonably smooth (when I get to it!). Thought I'd send it along here thinking maybe it will provide somebody with some necessary back ground or a new idea to complete this install that seems to be problematic-

"We realized you didn’t order the controller, please note that there is no standard for motor or controller colour codes.

Hall and Phase Combinations

http://www.lsdzs.com/e/images/image053.png

Phase/Hall Combo Info

Please be aware that there is no standard for motor or controller colour codes. Please read this, paying attention to the motor connections:

http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=3484

EM3ev use the following connections on our controllers and all the motors we supply connect to our Infineon controllers with matched colours (yellow-yellow, green-green, blue-blue) on both hall and phase:

Yellow Phase - Controller C Phase

Green Phase - Controller B Phase

Blue Phase - Controller A Phase

Yellow Hall - Controller C Sensor

Green Hall - Controller B Sensor

Blue Hall - Controller A Sensor

Red Hall - Controller 5V Supply

Black Hall - Controller 0V Supply


Here is a document with some info on hall and phase combination:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1w8mTX5H5K8VJ8s12ECVcKFJLNEsTCLT4hHwfXD44y-s/edit

A helpful note regarding Hall and Phase combos:

I make my phase connections using thin wires with alligator clips along with the positive or negative power wire for the controller....easy to swap and can't support enough current to hurt anything. Just make sure the ends at the controller and motor wires can't short. Once the small pulses reveal what seems to be correct combination, then I ease on the throttle to WOT to verify. I do that slowly so I don't push high current through those small wires. If I get a valid reverse, then I swap 2, any 2, only 2 hall wires, and go back to swapping the phases for the correct combo. Once running smooth and proper direction, I put the multimeter in line with the battery lead on the alligator clip to verify low current as further proof of right combo, and to get the no load current so I can calibrate the CA at the same time.

It's really a quite simple process. People over complicate it with talk about 36 combos, and then people start swapping both. Once it sinks in that every phase combination has 1 valid hall combo, and every hall combo has 1 valid phase combo, then it becomes obvious that you don't change both. What you don't know is whether that valid one is forward or reverse (there are 3 of each). Be careful of false positives, which spin the wheel but sound a bit rough on startup. Every false positive I have seen has been the opposite direction for the set you are keeping static (halls using my method), so if a combo spins it backward but sounded a bit rough, that's a good sign.

Also be careful of bad connections, which make a good combo impossible to find. The end hall spades can slide to the side instead of into the connector too. I like to slide the hall connector in and out a few times when making the connection to ensure a good contact.

Once you get that right combo, undo the alligator clips one at a time, and make the solid connection before going to the next, so you don't lose track. Also, do yourself a favor and pick up some yellow, blue, green, red, and black electrical tape. Use it to color code your phase wire ends on the controller side to match the motor phase wires to avoid going through the process again at a future date with the same motor and controller.

Also note that the most common difference from matching colors is a swap of the yellow and blue phase wires, so try that first if color on color doesn't work. Be systematic. If the yellow and blue swap didn't work either, then you've already tried both combos of green on green, so next try the 2 combos of green on yellow, and then the 2 of green on blue. That's 6, so you have it by now, or at least a good reverse. See above for how to handle reverse.

Whatever you do don't get frustrated and give it WOT. My only burned motor, a little Bafang, resulted from doing that....burned the controller too. My next wiring attempt was after I went through the logic exercise and realized just how easy it is. My wires could all be black and I'd find the right wiring just as quickly.

Infineon connections with CA2
EM3ev Infineon controller pinouts:

https://1drv.ms/b/s!AgXNuMx0hAiShMMcJrXm2dbha0uNaw

EM3ev Infineon Connections including V2 Cycle Analyst:

https://1drv.ms/b/s!AgXNuMx0hAiShMMgmBPeegTlVPBJMA

Mac assembly Procedure for DHL Shipping:

How to install the bolts, washers and screws:

To remove the hall sensor pins from the plastic hall sensor connector you will need to use a small slotted screwdriver, or a similar tool (tweezer or scissors will also work), to push down on the tabs on the spade connector. This will allow the spade connector to be released from the plastic shell. Once the white plastic connector is removed you can slide the washers and the nut through.

Please make sure that everything is fitted correctly, before re-connecting the spade connectors to the plastic shell after bending back the tabs to their original position and making sure that the position of each colour coded wire matches the controller side. If you gently tug on each connector they shouldn’t come loose.

Temporary Video

https://1drv.ms/v/s!AgXNuMx0hAiShYRM-1fW1xEVvUHU1Q

We include 2x torque washers (1), 2x spacer washers (2) and 2x end nuts (3) with every Mac motor. The torque washers should be fitted first with the “lip” side facing towards the motor, followed by the spacer washer (if needed) and the end nut. Please note that if you are using a torque arm the torque washers are not necessary. Finally, the end nut goes on last and should be firmly tightened. You should not fit any of these parts between the motor and the dropout unless you need the increased clearance.

The cassette spacer must be used with the cassette version of the Mac, even if a cassette isn’t fitted. Unlike with the other washers and nuts, this goes between the motor and the dropout.

cid:part1.FF7C45B0.BD010682@fastmail.fm

https://1drv.ms/b/s!AgXNuMx0hAiShMMThNmrhCt0eyMGwg

V2 CA Manual:

https://1drv.ms/b/s!AgXNuMx0hAiShMMslBJROqud0e5gGw

Thanks
Moon"
 
Thank you so much all of you for trying to help me out with the new MAC motor.
I have read every detail in the thread and have done this:

Hall sensor wires fixed, trying combinations of the phase leads.
I get wheel stuck on some combinations and a noise/wheel barely moving on others. All six combinations of phase leads tested.
The one that seems to be correct spins the wheel, and draws about 5 Amps on maximum rotation speed, unloaded.
Does 5 Amps sound right? When on about half speed it draws like 3 Amps.
When trying to start from standstill with a little weight, it is obvious that there is something wrong anyway. A grinding noise and a vibration does not sound healthy.
The point is that when trying all six combinations of phase wires and one spins the wheel forward, the others are stuck or noisy, should that be the correct one? If there were a false positive, then where is the correct one..?
When trying to ride the bike a little, looking at the current drawn, it actually goes about up tp top speed (level ground) and uses only like 5 amps. 300 odd watts needed to reach 22 mph on a flat seems ok. (10 t motor, top speed about 22mph). Wouldnt a false positive have drawn much more current?
But when trying to accelerate by advancing trottle a little too fast or too much, it makes a grinding noise, vibrates and seem to use a lot of current for a split second.
If this is the classic wrong phase lead syndrome, the false positive, where is the correct one, when all the other five combinations make the wheel either stuck or make super grinding noise/wheel barely moving. No reverse observed on that particular hall sensor wire arrangement.
Can something be wrong with the motor gear? Any other suggestions?

Here is a video that shows what is going on. 75mV equals 10A, so there is like 5 or so amps drawn. Notice how the gear-ish sound come and go when going in close to full speed, mayby that can tell you something? When the grinding noise dissapears the motor draws less than 2A on near full rpm, that would mean it is not the wrong combination of hall/phase? Also, when the power cuts out, I have to release the throttle to get i going again.
75mV equals 10A:

http://www.torestabell.no/bikeproblems.mp4
 
When testing use light throttle to see if it works. If dosn"t work don"t just use more throttle. Little throttle. There are 36 different combo"s. Em3ev has a matching controller that's the ez way. Matching throttle too. That way it's plug and play. Night mare goes away. Riding begins.
 
300W for 22mph seems good, but if that's a valid combo for forward then something is wrong... like maybe the controller is working in sensorless mode.

To answer your question about where is the right combo, the answer is that with a false positive spinning the wheel fwd the good combo will spin the motor in reverse. With a geared hubbie like you have you'll only hear a bit of whirring inside the motor, because the freewheeling clutch prevents the motor from spinning the wheel. To correct that and get forward, swap 2 hall wires (only 2), and find the good combo of phase wires. Torestabell copied and pasted a full explanation of my approach above.

Like 999zip999 said no riding, especially up to full speed, until you're confident nothing is wrong, quiet smooth starts, etc.
 
Did you take a look at the short video clip I linked to? I am curious to know if that shows a mecanical motor problem, rather than a wrong phase lead combo.
 
Back
Top