Which electric motor hub is the lightest & most efficient?

[galvatron1]

For 20" front disc brake, approx. 104mm space dropout.

Would also like it to be:

-capable of riding in rain.
-capable of 100% assist at all times
-climb steep hills, without burning or catching fire
-can spin free with no resistance when the motor is off
-capable of regenerative braking(optional)

 

[neptronix]

Nothing will meet your criteria..

 

[d8veh]

If you cross off regen, which doesn't get you much anyway, there are more possibilities, but lightweight motors don't climb steep hills without pedalling unless the hills aren't very steep, or the rider is very light too.

You need to give more information:
How heavy are you?
How much do you want to spend?
How long and steep are the hills?
How fast do you want to go?

 

[dogman dan]

Yep, strike off regen, and then pick your planetary gearmotor type that best meets your compromise between the power you need and the weight you wish you were getting, but aren't.

Or strike off spins with no resistance, and get a direct drive motor. Who cares about spins with no resistance if you will run it 100% of the time? Buy enough battery so that no power never happens.

It's either too heavy, or too weak, depending on your needs. x amount of power just takes y amount of copper. But some motors are heavier than others, for the same power. So till we know how much power you are interested, we have no clue what light or heavy would be to you. But for sure, 1000w of continuous power isn't going to weigh 5 pounds. 15 pounds more like it. If the use of 1000w is fairly short, motor closer to 10 pounds might work.

Steep hills are very harsh on hubmotors, But not as hard as they are for 26" wheels. So you have a leg up there, using a 20" wheel. To get into what hubmotor can climb what, you need to get a lot more specific about how steep that hill is.

Typically, in a 20" wheel, nothing under 10% grade is going to be much of a problem. You don't see highways exceed that grade much, but non highway streets and driveways can be 15% or worse. If the sidewalk has steps, it's STEEP.

Riding in the rain best may still be the Ezee kit from Grin Cyclery.

 

[galvatron1]

If you cross off regen, which doesn't get you much anyway, there are more possibilities, but lightweight motors don't climb steep hills without pedalling unless the hills aren't very steep, or the rider is very light too.

You need to give more information:
How heavy are you? 170 lbs.
How much do you want to spend? $680, but will spend more if it's worth the extra money.
How long and steep are the hills? Usually a block or two long. There is only one local steep hill, but I can always avoid it. As long as I can cross the Manhattan Bridge without pedaling, I'm happy.
How fast do you want to go? 20-30 mph. I'd be happy with a little more than 20 mph though.

 

[dogman dan]

Hmm, $680 will get you a good battery. One big enough to go 25 mph for 20-25 miles.

The motor stuff is fairly easy. If the hills are not so tough or long, any hubmotor kit will do it. On that budget, look for as cheap a deal as you can find on ebay. Front hub motors are standard 100mm, so a few washers gets you 104mm. Just hunt for a kit that is disk compatible.

Best bargain I can think of at the moment, would be a front direct drive kit from EM3ev. It will leave you very little for a battery. three 12 ah sla's will do if you only need about 6 miles range.

About a thou is a reasonable budget, if you need 20 miles at 25 mph.

We never really answered your efficiency question. In general, there isn't much difference motor to motor. If you haul ass, it's not efficient. If you ride slow, it's usually efficient. So the difference is just how much power you feed a motor. Feed it 200w, your battery lasts a long time. Feed it 3000w, it's gone in miniutes. Hills affect efficiency too, but only extremely steep ones. Your hills sound easy to me. Short enough to not matter.

 

[John in CR]

The finally available Falco motor is supposed to have 0 cogging, so it will meet all of your criteria. You do get locked into their proprietary stuff except the battery, and it's not cheap, but apparently worth the money. Regen braking is a must have on all my bikes. Not only does it give you more range, significantly more range with jackrabbit style riding, but it makes brakes a near zero maintenance item. Without regen, brake maintenance is much higher than with a regular pedal bike, because you have more mass to stop and higher speeds.

 

[Bike_on]

I have one of the Falco Hubs, the 500W, 4.5kg (9.9lb).

I got a snake bite flat on Friday and I did not bother changing it in the wild, though I had the stuff. All the zip ties and wiring is a big hassle when removing. I removed it Sunday, replaced tube and did a weigh-in with te wheel: 16lbs. So the 9-sp free wheel (it is heavy), rim and spokes must weigh ~ 6lb.

The hub is suppose to be 90% eff. I cannot measure it without a Dyno or some test stand. Running as a pedelec, I use ~ 9 whr/mi and average 18mph. If I hammer the throttle, I use 17-18 whr/mi and average 22-24mph. I am hosting with a road bike, 28mm tires.

I can compare it to previous ebikes and would agree that it performs very well, regens strong, is silent, and handles burst of 1000W on a regular basis. The controller is internal, another space saver.

Compared to a geared hub, the geared will be lighter and give better intial torque. However, the Falco can cruise at higher speeds, supporting thrust at 28-34mph. Geared is noisier, but some models not too bad. Falco has a boost Turbo mode which thrust 30A for the torque and can see 1200W on a fresh charge. Te Falco has more mass and shoul dhandle heat dissipation demands better than a geared hub. I have hit thermal cut back in the Falco going fullT on rolling hills, light effort, hot temps.

 

[-dg]

I just built a Bafang SWXU (201 rpm, ie slow wind) into a 20" wheel. On 48 volts it goes about 16 mph and will climb 12% for a few blocks with strong pedaling at an all up weight of 315 lbs. I plan to run it on 14s to get about 18mph. The motor is quite small and added only 4lbs to the wheel. I'm pretty happy with it so far, and think it will work out ok, but If I was doing it over, I'd use the SWXK. It is only 1.2 lbs heavier but much stronger.

Since you are only 170, you could probably use the faster wind motor and a 36 V battery. If you really cannot pedal at all, then you need to go bigger on both motor and battery. If you can add even 100 watts (a light comfortable effort level for most people) of pedaling then a smaller motor will work.

 

[galvatron1]

What about cute or MXUS hubs? Since it is going on a kick scooter, pedaling is not an option. Can I kick to assist with any of these motors? Where do I buy a falco motor & read reviews about it? Will a falco truly satisfy all my requirements? What is the max weight load capacity of a a falco motor? Can I pair a falco motor to regen a Li-NCM battery? What is superior, falco or ezee?

 

[Spacey]

Falco won't touch the new MAC's, a slow turn Mac would be best for weight and hill climbing with zero cogging.

 

[d8veh]

Some people have lost sight of the rquirements. IIUR Falco only make rear motors. Do they do them for over 20mph in a 20" wheel? They're expensive too. Neither is a slow wind MAC going to drive a 20" wheel over 20mph.

25mph is 335 rpm for a 20" wheel. You could also use a 36v 250 rpm one at 48v. To sustain 20 to 25 mph, you need a 500w motor. The lightest and best free-wheeling are geared, but no regen is possible, or you can get a heavier DD motor with regen that doesn't free-wheel so well.

The Cute and MXUS hubs will get you a little past 20mph in favourable conditions, but wind and hills will slow you down, and I think they will over-heat if you run them flat out all the time. I have a MXUS on test now. It can reach about 22mph, but with that much power (19 amps 36v) it gets hot on inclines when not pedalling. On a bike, I only go fast in bursts and often help it out with pedalling, which gives it a chance to cool down. I think the MXUS is as close as you'll get with lightweight, after that it's a heavier Bafang BPM or MAC.

 

[galvatron1]

Some people have lost sight of the rquirements. IIUR Falco only make rear motors. Do they do them for over 20mph in a 20" wheel? They're expensive too. Neither is a slow wind MAC going to drive a 20" wheel over 20mph.

25mph is 335 rpm for a 20" wheel. You could also use a 36v 250 rpm one at 48v. To sustain 20 to 25 mph, you need a 500w motor. The lightest and best free-wheeling are geared, but no regen is possible, or you can get a heavier DD motor with regen that doesn't free-wheel so well.

The Cute and MXUS hubs will get you a little past 20mph in favourable conditions, but wind and hills will slow you down, and I think they will over-heat if you run them flat out all the time. I have a MXUS on test now. It can reach about 22mph, but with that much power (19 amps 36v) it gets hot on inclines when not pedalling. On a bike, I only go fast in bursts and often help it out with pedalling, which gives it a chance to cool down. I think the MXUS is as close as you'll get with lightweight, after that it's a heavier Bafang BPM or MAC.

I think I will go with MXUS or cute. The falco is too expensive. I was pleased with MXUS performance while riding a Zumaround scooter 36v 250w 100% throttle. If I get a 500w, I will use more battery juice, so I can be content at 20 mph, I prefer efficiency & greater distance over speed. If I get a cute, I don't mind walking it up steep hills. Where can I get them the cheapest, new? Do forum members sell them?

Is it true Common generic Chinese FETs will produce 5-times the waste heat of an authentic 4110 or 3077 FET, 3077′s top out at a 60V battery, but they run about 25% cooler than 4110′s? I read that here: http://www.electricbike.com/modified-hub-motor/

 

[Eskimo]

My MXUS dd does 24mph with 48V (50,2V fresh), and it does not heat up when you ride flat out if you pedal too light to medium-effort. If you pedal some then amps hover around 10-12A flat out. Runs cool after miles and miles. What heats it up is climbing, where speed drops and amps run around 20A.
It has a great effiency on long distance moderate-speed cruise when you pedal some too, very good, and pretty bad effiency if you climb a lot.

 

[dogman dan]

Somehow I missed that this was for a scooter.

To clarify, I think you guys are talking about a muxus planetary gear motor. Some of us, when we see muxus think of the direct drive muxus , which is close to identical with a 9 continent direct drive 28mm stator motor.

Anyway, a small gearmotor will definitely fill your need for light weight and freewheeling, and should be the best for use on a stand up scooter that might be foot pushed from time to time. If the power needs increase, like for continuous use at 20-25 mph for more than 10 miles, then a larger version like the MAC should be chosen.

Chances are, the small motor will climb the hills you describe fine, but it will slow more on a hill, than a motor that can do 1000w. If you want to zip up those hills, and cruise faster, then get the Mac.

Which small motor brand is less important than which rpm you choose. In 20" wheel, the slower motors will be very slow. I think the faster motors, which are in fact intended to be used in 20" wheels, are what you want for moderately steep hills. So look at Cutes, Bafangs, muxus, etc.

Of USA based shippers, I believe E-BikeKit, and Amped Bikes offer small motors. Then from china there are plenty.

 

[d8veh]

MXUS motors are not so common. You can find them on Aliexpress. You can get the Q100 from BMSBattery.com, Greenbikekit.com or Elifebike.com. They each have a different designation for it. I think GBK are the cheapest and best comms. Make sure you get the 328 rpm one. You don't need the LED display.

 

[galvatron1]

1. Noticed the Cute 85 had roller brakes, what is that? The only option I have is to kick on a scooter, not sure if that will ruin the motor.

2. Is it true Common generic Chinese FETs will produce 5-times the waste heat of an authentic 4110 or 3077 FET, 3077′s top out at a 60V battery, but they run about 25% cooler than 4110′s? I read that here: http://www.electricbike.com/modified-hub-motor/

3. Where do I find 3077 FET cheap or should I get the more expensive LYEN edition?

 

[d8veh]

The Q85 is less powerful than the Q100, and it doesn't respond to tweaking as well as the Q100, so I'd forget that one. The Q75 is new, so I doubt anybody here has tried it yet, but it's even smaller, so I can''t believe that it'll give you what you want.

The roller brake versions have a spline to fix a roller brake rather than the 6 holes for a disk brake.

 

[dogman dan]

Maybe I misunderstand again, but I just don't see the use pattern that's going to overheat a controller. I know bridge approaches can be kind of steep, but shorter hills that heat up stuff are followed by time for the heat to conduct away. Provided some wind gets at the controller box, that is.

If you are talking about 3000w, then it may start to matter. But then you fry the smaller motor long before the controller goes.

 

[galvatron1]

Maybe I misunderstand again, but I just don't see the use pattern that's going to overheat a controller. I know bridge approaches can be kind of steep, but shorter hills that heat up stuff are followed by time for the heat to conduct away. Provided some wind gets at the controller box, that is.

If you are talking about 3000w, then it may start to matter. But then you fry the smaller motor long before the controller goes.

1. I'm going for efficiency here. The point is to get it as light as possible to go as many miles as possible. If it is true Common generic Chinese FETs will produce 5-times the waste heat of an authentic 4110 or 3077 FET, 3077′s top out at a 60V battery, but they run about 25% cooler than 4110′s, that means cheaper chinese controllers are not as efficient, am I correct? My questions is still where to find authentic 3077 cheap or LYEN edition.

2. Is it worth spending the extra money on a falco hub, since it is 90% efficient, as opposed to this cute 100 hub, which is only 80% efficient? I'm assuming the extra efficiency will give me extra miles range. It also looks like they weigh almost the same(Cute - 14.33 lbs vs. Falco w/o wheel - 9.92 lbs), since the falco has the controller built in the hub, so I guess I don't need an external controller w/ flaco, am I right?

3. & with the Regen braking in the falco, what % am I extending battery range by or how many miles am I adding to 20 mile battery pack on an avg ride?

 

[dogman dan]

Yes. But you are talking about 5 x more of a very small % of the power you are using. The wasted power in an EV went to motor heating. Motor heat can be 50% of your total watts. Ideally it's less than 20%. There's some real wasted energy to avoid.

Choosing the correct winding speed of your motor for your needs will result in a great deal more efficiency than what fet you have, in a low wattage application. Yes, a controller will make heat, but it will be nothing compared to a wrong decision on the motor. You want efficient? EASY. Slower winding motor, and don't haul ass. Haul ass, and you will blow watts into wind resistance.

Unfortunately, there is no cut and dried way to say motor A is efficient, and motor B is not. But you can map your route, then take information such as the grades involved and speeds you wish to travel, then try the simulator with various combinations of controller, motor, and battery voltage. With a small wheel, even the faster motors will work rather well. You won't have the perfect storm of inefficiency, a 26" wheel, a fast rpm motor, and a zillion stops for traffic and lights.

But even with a small wheel, you won't get wonderful wh/mi by stopping every 1/4 mile, then trying to hit 30 mph each run. You are riding in the city right? 0-20 mph works better with a slower rpm motor, making less heat in the motor with each start. The amount saved by one fet or the other will be hard to even measure compared to the motor heating.

 

[galvatron1]

thanks for the advice

 

[galvatron1]

I rented a zumaround scooter last saturday. I was impressed how well it took the steep hills with no pedaling in Central Park, for a 36v 250w MXUS geared hub & 36v 9ah water bottle battery. I'm not sure I can find a set up comparable or better than that for my scooter. Any suggestions? The price of a zumaround is $1250, so I'm assuming the conversion kit minus the scooter is around $850.