Commuter build

S

Skippic

100 W
Joined
Jun 22, 2010
Messages
224
Location
Bratislava, Slovakia
Hi guys,

I've read a lot of posts here on the forum and while very educating most seem to be directed at the fastest, most powerful, fattest e-bike one can get.

It might be my noobieness or maybe I'm just getting old, but I'm simply looking for the most efficient, cheap and inconspicuous build.

Input variables:
I own a 700x35C hard-tail with a sucky suspension fork.
Although I've never ridden an e-bike I strongly believe rear motor is better for me.
My daily commute is 10km(6miles) each way (I intend to charge at work).
My ride is almost flat, no stops, no lights, nothing.
I expect to want to ride without pedaling at 48km/h(30mph).
The e-bike should look like a normal bike.
It should be 100% reliable and last for years.

My proposal:
from cellman:
1000W rear kit $350
16s2p A123 (52.8V 4.6Ah) + 30A BMS $250
2 x 48V 4A chargers $110
Shipping $90

from ebikes.ca:
Cycle Analyst Direct Plug-in Model $120
Shipping $15

Total: $935

From my calculations the battery at that speed should be good for about twice the needed range, so it should last a long time.

Questions:
1. Is MAC the way to go or should I fork out the extra $$$ for BMC?
2. If MAC, what windings are the most efficient at 52V and 30mph? (6T, 8T, 10T, 12T)
3. Is everything on my list compatible?
4. Will I need anything else I didn't take into account?
5. Is the Direct Plug-in Model Cycle Analyst the correct one?
6. Is there a cheaper solution than the CA if I only need amp meter/limiter?
7. With 30mph shouldn't I consider getting a full suspension MTB instead?

Thanks for your help!
Emil
 
I am at just over 600 miles with my first E-bike build. I bought the direct drive rear wheel kit from Ebike.com. I also bought a 48 volt 15 amp hour battery from PING. I installed the kit on a 6 year old trek mountain bike with front suspension. I am very happy with the results, I have a 15 mile total round trip I do every day and I do not have to worry about charging at work and I can add on an extra little trip to the store or bank without having to recharge. On the flat my speed is 30 mph and uphill it is 20 to 10 mph deppending on the hill. My route is one mile downhill, 5.5 miles flat and one mile uphill. I have my battery in an Ortlieb trunk bag with a quick mount system on a Tubas rack. It is a great setup and only takes about 30 seconds to put the battery on and take the battery off. I have been extremely pleased with the quality of all the products I have purchesed. Overall cost including rack and bag and shipping, about $1300 USD. With my commute only being 7.5 mile one way it is actually faster for me to ride my e-bike then drive due to the great trails we have going through the Fairmount park here in Philadelphia. I also use a Turnigy meter to monitor the voltage and amperage of the ride, At full throttle the whole trip I use 5.5-5.8 amp hours each way.
 
By the way, I chose a rear wheel kit so that I can still take off my front wheel and throw my bike in the back of the car in case my girlfriend has to pick me up due to rain or if we want to go out after work. This is my first ebike and I could not figure out a way to make a front wheel motor easily removable without cutting wire ties every time (I'm not a fan of having extra connectors due to corrosion and problems with being damaged), that is why I went with a rear motor.
 
I dont know about the winding and related speed at 52V but everything else sounds good.

does the MAC wheel kit come with a controller? because i didnt see one on that list.
 
Thanks guys.

jtdiode, you seem to have something I was considering previously. I'll have a closer look at some of your choices like the "quick mount system on a Tubas rack" and the "Turnigy meter".

Red_Liner740 said:
I don't know about the winding and related speed at 52V but everything else sounds good.

does the MAC wheel kit come with a controller? because i didn't see one on that list.
Click to expand...

It has everything:
http://www.emissions-free.com/catalog/i24.html

Mac 1000W Rear Kit (High Power)
For detailed information on the Mac Motor please refer to the Mac Bare Motor listing.

The Mac High Power Kit comes complete with a 6T, 400rpm loaded at 36V motor, built into a quality double wall, 26", eyeletted, CNC sidewall and anodised rim with 13G black stainless steel spokes. We now use a new controller is generally fitted IRFB3077 (75V fets, up to 48V battery pack) or IRFB4110 (100V fets, up to 72V battery pack). Comes complete with your throttle of choice, full grip twist, half grip twist or thumb (including cruise switch), 3 speed switch, Cycle Analyst connector and E-brakes (highly recommended with the cruise function). The ebrakes, 3 speed switch, CA connector,  and cruise connector are new additions to the kit have increased the cost a little The motor is fitted with the new and much improved composite gears with upgraded imported bearings and a gear design that offers almost 20% wider gears than the previous design and the comparable motors from BMC and Ezee, yet is still backward compatible with the existing Mac motors.

Note that the available space for the disk is a little limited at 15mm between the side casing and the inner face of the disk, so some care when selecting a suitable caliper is required or some spacing of the disk away from the side cover and possibly modification of the caliper mounting may be required for some models of disk brake caliper. The Mac 500W rear motor allows both disk brake and 7 speed freewheel to be used on the standard 135mm dropout.

Expect approximately 45kph, 28mph on 36V 12S LiFePO4, 56kph, 35mph on 48V 16S LiFePO4 (not recommended for continuous usage at these power levels), with a 6T 1000W Mac fitted into a 26" wheel. There are also a slower wound versions, 12T 200rpm, 10T 255rpm, 8T 320rpm loaded at 36V motors which will offer reduced speed for a given voltage with the potential for higher torque. Kits are also available with 700C, 20" and 24" as required. The high rpm motor is not recommended for steep hills and above 48V when fitted to a 26" wheel. In fact the speed possible on 48V in a 26" rim with a 6T motor results in power levels above the reliable continuous power levels on these motors. 

Motor, spokes and rim are all with black finish.
Click to expand...

It even has cruise control and ebrakes.

As for the motors there are various choices:
400rpm, 320rpm, 255rpm and 200rpm.

I understand the slower motors have more torque, but I would like to know which of these motors is the most efficient with 52V, 30mph and 700C wheels.
Is it:
- a slower one going at it's maximum speed
- a fast one going at far below it's maximum speed and therefore not at maximum power
- or one in the middle, that is at it's most efficient with the stated conditions

I personally would prefer a slower wound motor that just hits it's maximum at 30mph, but as I mentioned almost all of my commuting will be done at a constant speed on a flat road so efficiency with those conditions is my biggest priority.

Emil
 
I'm pretty sure you'll need the faster winding to be sure of getting 30 mph at 48v. You may be confusing real world speeds with no load motor speeds. No load is good for comparison, but add your weight and wind resistance at 30 mph, and the motors rpm drops a lot.

So unless you have really steep hills, you would be happier with the faster windings.

Your battery seems a bit small to me though. Yes, it calculates right, 4.6 ah of 48v should take you just about 6 miles. But the battery will hate being discharged 100% each cycle and it will end up unbalanced a lot. If there is one even slightly weak cell in there, the 100% depth of discharge cycles will hammer it quickly to death. That's how folks kill their drill lithium batteries. So bite the bullet, and get a battery one size bigger. 16s 3p will be just right for your ride. Bear in mind too, that one fine day your gal won't be picking you up, and you'll be riding 6 miles into a 30 mph headwind. On that day, 3p may even be close to not enough.

You'll be glad you bought a 6.9 ah battery later anyway. I garantee you will soon be taking the long cut home after work, just because it's fun. In fact, I really think you'd be best off to bump it even bigger if you can afford it. 10 ah is just barely enough to get me through anything fun on the weekend. Of course, once a battery gets to that size, it does start to show on the bike. But the 3p size is still going to fit nicely in a triangle frame bag.

Regarding efficiency, well, slow down for that. 30 mph is never going to be efficient on the ebike scale. 20 mph is very efficeint. But in any case, the key to efficiency is to set a certain speed, and use pedaling to increase that speed about 1-2 mph. That's very hard to do at 30 mph, because of bike gearing, and because of the fact that adding 1 mph at 30 mph takes a lot more watts than the average guy can put out continous. Throttle to 20 mph, and pedal up 2 mph, and you'll really see that drop in wattage on the CA. But at 30 mph, good luck making that watt number on the CA drop any.

The bottom line of efficiency is this. x speed takes y watts. Period. Only lowering the wind resistance lowers the wattage needed. So a slick bike, or slowing down will do that. Yes, motor windings do matter, but not much unless climbing hills. Once climbing, a hub motor needs to be going a certain speed, or it starts to make heat instead of motion. THEN it gets real inefficient. If you hill is very steep, then you want the slower winding motors because they can run at a lower rpm before they make heat. So the slow wind motor is going to climb more efficeint and go farther before it overheats.

For cruising 30 mph on flatter terrain, there isn't going to be any big difference between motor x and motor y going 30 mph. Laws of physics, both motors are going to have to put out a certain wattage to go 30 mph. At 30 mph, niether will be lugging, so both will be running efficient.
 
Hi,

I have just built my ebike using cell_man's 500W speed motor, thats the 6T i think, and at 36V (10S lipo) im getting 28mph on the flat. Hill climbing is reasonable as well although i only weigh around 70kg.

If you are running 52V a 6T winding will really fly! Perhaps go for a slower winding to give better hill climbing ability and 30 mph as well?

I commute 8 miles each way and use between half and two thirds of my 9AH pack on the 16 mile round trip...start off on 41.8V and finish on 37, full throttle most of the way.

I wouldn't bother with the cycle analyst, not that i've used one but the Turnigy cycle computer I have seems very good and is quite cheap, maybe worth a look!

Good luck :)
 
Thank you dogman.

So from what you are saying, I should look at the slowest motor, that satisfies my speed requirements. That way I get more or less the same efficiency at top speed and a pretty good hill-climbing ability.

I must have miscalculated the energy needed for my commute, since I was expecting to use very close to 50% of charge. That way I could return at a slower pace even if I had problems recharging at work and still not use 100% of the battery.

Jimbo you seem to have very similar conditions to mine. Is your commute flat? What batteries do you use?

Your consumption seems do be very close to what I expected.

A quick calculation:
36V = 28mph is equivalent to 52V = 30+mph
if we consider the same amps (should be compensated by a considerably higher voltage)
then:
2/3 of 9Ah = 6Ah; - you said you use up to 2/3 of your 9Ah battery
6Ah/16miles = 0.375Ah/mile

0.375Ah/mile * 6miles = 2.25Ah - necessary for my trip

2.25Ah / 4.6Ah = 49% of battery capacity

dogman could you please let me know if these numbers are OK and why there is such a big discrepancy between what I expected and what you said. I'm not trying to question the need to have extra capacity.
 
here is what I recommend:

1) Don't get BMC. They are overpriced and probably not as reliable.
2) I believe cellman would recommend 6T at 36V or 8T at 52V for 30mph ride. As for efficiency, I would go with 52V with 6T since you will only need 75% throttle to get to 30mph w/o head wind on flats w/o pedaling. Moreover, you can go a bit faster if you want.
3) Everything should be compatible. But I can't say for sure. Double check with cellman about the CA compatibility.
4) pedal uphill if you are going with 6T winding. You might want to look into torque wrench.
5) Double check with cellman.
6) You can look at hobbyking for a comparable device. The way CA is limiting amps is limiting the throttle voltage. Unless you build your own circuit to do so, I doubt you can find a cheaper solution. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong.
7) Only if the road you will riding on is pretty roughed up. 30mph on a big pothole can really hurt the motor's bearing and probably rough on you. The Full suspension will help dampen the impact both on the motor and you. But that depends on budget and the type of bike you have. For keeping the cost low, I would just go with what you have now.

As for the battery, my guess is you will be using 750W to 1KW to maintain the 30mph depending on your motor's efficiency. My guess is it will be closer to 1KW since you are will be fighting quite a bit of wind. Your battery is 260Wh. So that should effectively give you 0.25 hours or 15 minutes ride. 30mph*0.25 = 7.5miles which should covers the range you need and a bit more but definitely NOT 2x the range on that battery. You can get 2X the range if you pedal assist or go slower.

One more caveat though. You will be using more energy accelerating, but since you stated no stopping during the 6 miles ride, it should not matter.

Geared motor will give you the stealthiest look. And if you get a disc breaks bike, it might just look like part of the disc brakes.

As for reliability, I would go with sensorless Direct Drive motors (Crystalytes). There is no gears to replaces or grease to put on the gears. It can handle a lot of power and withstand impacts. But there are downside (cost, weight, no freewheel, etc). Do some research and you will find out.
Note that battery capacity will go down a bit after a while. If you want to be sure, I would go for more capacity battery (maybe 10Ah?). But that will totally depends on your budget. Treat the other components nicely and you will be fine for years. It is recommend to grease the gears every 2-3K miles.

Good luck with your build.
 
Perhaps better off to think in terms of watthours per mile for range calculations. 35 wh/mi is pretty typical, but at 30 mph you might see 45wh/mi.

I may be mistaken but I think your 2p battery would have about 220 wh max. So 4.5 miles. Pretty tight if you get 45 wh/mi. Pedal and go 20 mph, and below 20wh/mi is common. So you see how much speed or headwinds can affect range.

What I was trying to let you know was that range varies widely depending on speed. You were talking about pretty fast speeds, which destroy your range. But calculations aside, what I have found to be good rules of thunb for sizing a battery to the ride is these two estimates at 25 mph.

At 36v 1 ah per mile will definitely get you there at 25 mph, AND allow you a reserve for the windy days, and let the battery have a break.

At 48v 3/4 ah per mile.

Since you will be riding 30 mph, then I expect even worse. I never did much calculations. I just go out and ride a lot, and get a pretty good idea what it takes. At 30 mph, I won't get much further than 20 miles out of my 48v 15 ah battery. And into a headwind, I can run out by 14 miles. It's happend plenty, and I live 15 miles from work. So I definitely don't ride fast on the headwind day.

So I really think you need at least 3p for the battery. And I know that if you have even more range you will enjoy it. Nothing sucks more that hypermiling home trying to get 10 wh/mi.

Re the motor windings, yeah, I really prefer to have the slowest motor that hits the top speed I want at the voltage I'm using. Iv'e ridden quite a few different motors by now, and really prefer a snappy take off to the long sluggish take off common on faster winding motors. Some just throw more watts at the motor, but then you start blowing up controllers, melting wiring etc.
 
Great reply mvly! You have been very helpful in answering all the questions. Now I have a much better idea of what I need to do.

Jimbo is your commute at full speed? (28mph) If not, that would explain why you seem to use a lot less energy than what the others are saying.

So basically I could just ease off the throttle a little bit and not need the bigger battery, but based on dogman's post I'll just pay the little extra and go at max speed all the way.

Based on these figures I suppose I'll just go with the 16s4p. The price is not really an issue it will be just $200 more, but I was hoping of having a light and invisible battery.
This way I will double the weight and dimensions from
2.6kg
1.6l
10.5cm x 14cm x 11cm
to
5.4kg
3.2l
21cm x 14cm x 11cm
which compared to the standards on this forum is still pretty small ;)

As for the CA I really like the Turnigy meter (real cheap) and does all but current limiting. If there was a simple way to do current limiting, probably just by throttle feedback, that would be great. If I don't find any better solution I'm thinking either Turnigy meter with Arduino for the current limiting or just plain Arduino with a display to do everything.
 
Skippic,

Im using Turnigy nano tech li-po's, two 10s 4.5ah in parallel. Weighs 2kg and is about 300mm x 50 x 50. If you want a subtle install Li-po's are a good way to go, just get a metal box to charge them in!

My commute is pretty much flat and im full throttle most of the way, having said that i do pedal to accelerate and there is a fair bit of free wheeling involved too - i accelerate up to around 30 and then freewheel down to around 22, and then back up again... im flairly light too so that would make a difference to the range.

IMHO a 6T wound motor on 36+ volts should do you ok....dpends on how much of a speed freak you are - 30 is pretty quick! Also If you go with lipo you can always start of with a few packs and add more AH if you need, though the A123 cells are a lot safer ive heard.

:D
 
Here's my build (and it works perfectly for me).

Trek Pure (huge, open frame). It's like an electra townie. It's a beach cruiser, so-to-speak, with the cranks set forward of the seat post, so you can sit very upright, relax, and cruise. You can also put both feet on the ground without using tippy toes or trying to balance.

Next, I have a front hub motor (which works great for me and was easy to install).

SLA 48-volt battery (SLA isn't ideal, but in my situation it's perfect, because it's only 23 pounds but in the frame I can't even tell it's there...very balanced) and I only ride 4.5 miles to work. The battery pack has about an 8-12 mile range. It could easily do your 6 miles without any pedaling, including hills (unless we're talking about San Francisco hills).

My setup is only 500 bucks with everything included, except the twenty-dollar rack I used to hold the battery (ebikeKit.com). Their normal kit is a larger 36-volt battery, but I opted for less range and more speed by getting a 48-volt battery with less AH.

I bought a twenty-dollar rear rack and mounted it in the frame using the normal bolts that would bolt it to the frame, and inverted the extension arms. I also used zipties from Home Depot and electrical tape (stretchy kind that is strong). The whole thing is very secure and balanced. It feels like a normal bike (but obviously more difficult to lift into the van). The setup added about forty pounds to the bike.

i-Jf7RrP9-L.jpg


FYI: I begin my daily commute Monday (4.5 miles each way) and will charge at work. I've already tested the route a couple times and can do it in 15 minutes pedaling and about 18 without pedaling. That's exactly the time it takes me to get to work by car.

My plan is to ride to work everyday, unless it's raining or below freezing. Here in the Atlanta area I should be able to ride to work about 80-90% of the time.
 
Guys thanks for the info.

I'm somewhat afraid of using lipos. Plus from what I've read with chargers and stuff they come to cost about the same especially with smaller capacities. I can see the almost 1/2 weight, 1/3 size advantage...

Could you tell me what I would need to buy if I decided to go LiPo? (around 48V and 10Ah)


Mike you got a really nice bike there! It's important to keep it simple and not over do it. I wish I was able to keep it below $1000, but it seems I'll just get lured to buying the biggest, most powerful stuff.

I wish there was someone with an ebike here in Washington DC, I would like to have an idea of what I really need. At the beginning of the post I said I wanted 30mph, but I'm beginning to have doubts if at such a high speed the wind wouldn't get unpleasant after a couple of miles. Also my bike has very thin wheels and I'm afraid of the handling at higher speeds.
 
GCinDC is in your area, I believe and he rides like a demon! Check out his videos of riding in Washington!
otherDoc
 
There are E-bikes up there for sure (in DC). Many are not members here at Endless Sphere.

My bike, on the flats, goes 28mph (if I'm crouched and trying to speed).

Normally my bike goes about 26 on the flats when I'm fully upright. It's fast enough for me.

The fastest I've gone on it (I put a bike computer on it....wired...25 bucks) was about 32mph, and that's just a bit too fast (this was on a slight downhill). It could probably go even faster than that on a really good downhill, but it's just a little too much.

I found 36 volts was a little slow and 48 volts is just right. My speed fluctuates between 19-23mph in most situations, and like I said, will build up faster if the terrain is completely flat or downhill. I have no complaints at all about what I'm riding. I'm thrilled.

If you can, regardless of battery type, mount it in the frame. That's the magic. My bike is as easy to ride as it was before putting on the kit, and I'm glad I'm using front wheel drive.
 
I'm surprised Dogman has been able to resist saying it this long so i will: 9 Continent kit with a 48V 15A Ping on an inexpensive used mountain bike and you are good to go. Try to find a hard tail bike with front suspension and disk breaks and mount the Battery in a tackle/tool box on a rear rack. Pretty much one afternoon in the garage and you are good to go. This will give you close to 30 MPH and about a twenty mile cruise range. I have to fly under the radar and so far, unless I tell them, no one knows that it is an electric. I have even stood there, lifted the rear wheel and hit the thumb throttle (also more stealthy than a twister) and spun the wheel and had people say "How did you do that?".

Oh also, a rear hub is also a lot more stealthy than front. This is not the cheapest way in the world (nor most expensive) but the components are time proven by many folks here on ES, easy to maintain (plug and forget Battery) and it will hustle you around at the speed you are looking for. As the old saying goes "Good, Fast,Cheap,... choose any two".

John
 
GCinDC is crazy!!! :shock: I've seen some of his videos and for one he is riding an electric motorbike and as such should probably be more careful. I like his bike, but I'm looking for something much cheaper.

The 9 Continent motor is probably bigger than what I'm looking for. I had also thought of getting a small DD and then pushing it to 2kW, but I don't know if there is anything as small as the geared motors. The Ping is nice, but I fell in love with A123. I expect it to perform much better and last longer.
 
GCinDC's ebike is not a motorcycle to be exact e-MTB (Mountain Bike) with full suspension. He is using the 9 Continent DD motor 9x7 same as mine. He stated he prefer reckless (aggressive) drive his ebike due his concept more speed than vehicles or in bad traffic less lead accident. He is being doing this commuter since like 3 years now so far no accident involve with the vehicles. There always has the risk involve in many ways anyways. It's like roll the dice depends on other drivers distract, rage, and not pay attention.

A123 is awesome battery if you can afford if not, go for LiPo if you know how handle with the charger setup. :lol:

Lastly, You could get xlyte HS3540, They are usually exceed 3kw and good reliable as like 9C motor as little more power + torque.


Skippic said:
GCinDC is crazy!!! :shock: I've seen some of his videos and for one he is riding an electric motorbike and as such should probably be more careful. I like his bike, but I'm looking for something much cheaper.

The 9 Continent motor is probably bigger than what I'm looking for. I had also thought of getting a small DD and then pushing it to 2kW, but I don't know if there is anything as small as the geared motors. The Ping is nice, but I fell in love with A123. I expect it to perform much better and last longer.
Click to expand...
 
a bicycle with bad suspension fork and hardtail, will show its true colors when a unseen pothole or roadhazard comes into play at 30mph,trust me on this one.for some reason a city worker thought a 6 inch hole by a foot wide was needed on the side of a road for no reason,it knocked the wind out of me and lucky i had fat tires and a stable long bicycle. if you want to go fast you gotta spend more money on the bicycle.
 
beast775 said:
a bicycle with bad suspension fork and hardtail, will show its true colors when a unseen pothole or roadhazard comes into play at 30mph,trust me on this one.for some reason a city worker thought a 6 inch hole by a foot wide was needed on the side of a road for no reason,it knocked the wind out of me and lucky i had fat tires and a stable long bicycle. if you want to go fast you gotta spend more money on the bicycle.
Click to expand...

From what I've read at 30mph most resistance comes from the air anyway, so I don't really need big thin wheels. Plus if I get a small double suspension MTB it will be more comfortable, cheaper and my wife could use it as well. Any good suggestions? Maybe something I can fit a battery in the triangle.

I like this one:
http://www.walmart.com/ip/Genesis-26-Men-s-V2100-Dual-Suspension-Bicycle/14089739
 
Skippic said:
beast775 said:
a bicycle with bad suspension fork and hardtail, will show its true colors when a unseen pothole or roadhazard comes into play at 30mph,trust me on this one.for some reason a city worker thought a 6 inch hole by a foot wide was needed on the side of a road for no reason,it knocked the wind out of me and lucky i had fat tires and a stable long bicycle. if you want to go fast you gotta spend more money on the bicycle.
Click to expand...

From what I've read at 30mph most resistance comes from the air anyway, so I don't really need big thin wheels. Plus if I get a small double suspension MTB it will be more comfortable, cheaper and my wife could use it as well. Any good suggestions? Maybe something I can fit a battery in the triangle.

I like this one:
http://www.walmart.com/ip/Genesis-26-Men-s-V2100-Dual-Suspension-Bicycle/14089739
Click to expand...

Comfort is job one for any length of time in the saddle; get a wide seat, (your wife will love that one), have your handle bars above the seat height, run big fat slicks. Try to distribute the weight as evenly as possible, because it will end up being heavier than anything else you've ridden. As for the bike it's a 4 bar linkage which is a good design, but coming from Wallmart check all the nuts and bolts, brakes, derailleurs, shocks. Set everything up properly, then ride it and have fun! :wink:
 
Skippic said:
I like this one:
http://www.walmart.com/ip/Genesis-26-Men-s-V2100-Dual-Suspension-Bicycle/14089739
Click to expand...

Honestly, for the price, that's probably one of the best "cheap" MTBs I've ever seen. You will probably eventually want to upgrade the rear shock and front forks. Cheap suspension is better than no suspension, but for a couple hundred bucks you can really increase the ride quality. As for ebike use, and mounting batteries in the frame triangle. The location of the rear shock does make it a bit tricky, but the frame does have more room in it than most other FS bikes.

Another option (and one I wish I had used) is to check Craigslist. You can often get really good quality used bikes at a fraction of the cost of a new one.
 
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