endlessly_ending
10 W
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- Apr 27, 2013
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- 82
Congrats,
what kind of display is this?
what kind of display is this?
2 Speed Xiongda hubmotor
- Thread starter d8veh
- Start date
docnjoj
1 GW
Got me. It says KT-LCD-3 and looks similar to the screen with my Sinewave controller from BMSBattery. It is different in having a separate button set and my original screen is an LCD1. The controller is sinewave. Very good instruction set with it.endlessly_ending said:
otherDoc
endlessly_ending
10 W
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Thanks, cold you please post a close up of the controller and the display?
Once you have it working, I'll be very curious what parameteres can be adjusted by that combo.
From reading the manual it seems the S-LCD3 to be almost comparable to the KT-5S.
Question is, what actually is supported by the controller as well.
The S-LCD3 seems to support reading of the motor temperature as well. I'm not aware that the XiongDa has a temp sensor built into?
Once you have it working, I'll be very curious what parameteres can be adjusted by that combo.
From reading the manual it seems the S-LCD3 to be almost comparable to the KT-5S.
Question is, what actually is supported by the controller as well.
The S-LCD3 seems to support reading of the motor temperature as well. I'm not aware that the XiongDa has a temp sensor built into?
panurge
10 kW
I was noticed by XD that the LCD-3 from KT with the sinewave KT controller was ready.
endlessy, maybe you are right, might be the controller that hasn't implemented all the features the KM5S can manage.....
what make me think a bit about, though, is that on my KM device, I have only the first level menu, where I find mixed values to change, that are usually in different sub-menus, on the KM5S device.....that doesn't sound as a Controller firmware limit alone...
Doc, all my 2 motors have small round stickers that tell the Inches of the wheel the motor is intended for....
From what I know KT is the traditional supplier for XD controllers and is even physically close to them, but since Lishui is a very well known and valued factory, mostly for Sine controllers, they had the will to try even them with the kit, this has maybe fastened the KT develop for a sinewave ESC with a more good looking LCD offering advanced features, for the 2 speed system.
Interesting would be to have one of the integrated LCD-Controller device that lishui offers, in sine wave version, and with the 2 speed logic and shifter port, built in....
endlessy, maybe you are right, might be the controller that hasn't implemented all the features the KM5S can manage.....
what make me think a bit about, though, is that on my KM device, I have only the first level menu, where I find mixed values to change, that are usually in different sub-menus, on the KM5S device.....that doesn't sound as a Controller firmware limit alone...
Doc, all my 2 motors have small round stickers that tell the Inches of the wheel the motor is intended for....
From what I know KT is the traditional supplier for XD controllers and is even physically close to them, but since Lishui is a very well known and valued factory, mostly for Sine controllers, they had the will to try even them with the kit, this has maybe fastened the KT develop for a sinewave ESC with a more good looking LCD offering advanced features, for the 2 speed system.
Interesting would be to have one of the integrated LCD-Controller device that lishui offers, in sine wave version, and with the 2 speed logic and shifter port, built in....
docnjoj
1 GW
Nope no stickers or serial numbers on my motor. It is a 135 mm motor though. I'll be happy if it is high speed for the 20" wheel and shifts OK. The invoice said it was a "wheelchair motor". That could be for value purposes or duty free status.
otherDoc
docnjoj
1 GW
So I laced up the wheel (not pro-like but serviceable) and brought it to the LBS and they said "Sure we can true that" BUT the spokes may be too long. 4 spoke calculators agreed but they could be wrong. Yuk! Oh well we shall see. I got 144 mm but they may need 142 or even 140. Luckily John Holmes is a mailbox away or perhaps LBS can cut them shorter and thread them. Maybe I should have had the folks in china lace it up?
otherDoc
otherDoc
panurge
10 kW
I have a spoke's strip meter a very thin and flexible steel one......and verified various Spoke calculator software or online tools comparing their values with real world measurements.
I can say that in my experience, the DT and the Ebike.ca are the more precise web-tools.
Sapim is close...the CrisKing is acceptable but not at the DT or Grin level.
I love the nipple angle and the realtime grafic model of the wheel, for uncommon wheels (at least for me) with strange flange's dia/offset and rim sizes it is helpful to figure better out how the wheel looks and helps to prevent any macroscopic input value error.....
I can say that in my experience, the DT and the Ebike.ca are the more precise web-tools.
Sapim is close...the CrisKing is acceptable but not at the DT or Grin level.
I love the nipple angle and the realtime grafic model of the wheel, for uncommon wheels (at least for me) with strange flange's dia/offset and rim sizes it is helpful to figure better out how the wheel looks and helps to prevent any macroscopic input value error.....
panurge
10 kW
ecross said:
Sorry Ecross for the delay, Yes I think your trikes are good now with full suspensions.
Honestly, this motor has a modest power rate to figure it out in your racing tadpoles :wink: but I understand the needs for a lightweight and low power climbing unit, and if you are ok with a 10-15kph max speed on big climbs it could be ok.
I'll suggest you to try my motor at the show and than decide if you like it or not and mostly if it has enough power for the climbing duty you would like to do with it on a trike.
The Motor without disc mount is a 135mm one with 7-8 speed freewhweel space. If you want disc mount you should go to 146mm for 7-8 speed or get a 137mm motor extending the threads on the drive side, perfect for old 5speed freewheels.
Have you considered the lightweight MId drive from the Member BadBoyBike? I think it is a smart approach for the climb needs of any downhill cycle machine.....It seems that this kind of motor conversion will handle the load thru the gears well, even if it's small and Amp limited.
It is lighter and the XD weight is anyway located inside the wheel, although not 10Kg and with 2 speed.
I will be glad to see you in Friedrichshafen, than and I can arrange even your motor purchase and the wheel to be laced up, if you like it, in september, and maybe we can meet to the Giglio for the deal, I still have to see the Island without the Concordia monster.
Cheers
eMax
100 W
docnjoj said:
No China is never that great for wheel building! One I got from BHS Battery was terrible! Best getting the LBS to do it even if it means new spokes. I just got the DHL tracking for mine im pretty excited. Plan on positing heaps of info once I set it up with my 26er MTB. Will tentatively run at 48v.
docnjoj
1 GW
Well it is at the bikeshop for truing. I got a brainstorm and thought that if I reverse the spokes so that the head is inside it will shorten them a bit and widen the triangle of spokes at the hub end. I actually started to lace that way but it appeare that the spokes might be too short. no such luck. Yes I am willing to pay twice for spokes. Sometimes that is the way it goes.eMax said:
otherDoc
I've laced mine into a 26 inch wheel, 1-cross, 213mm spokes. Truing the wheel (well, somewhat true. True enough.) wasn't hard.
I've done a couple of blog posts on this:
http://blog.drsolly.com/2014/08/rebuilding-bike2.html
http://blog.drsolly.com/2014/08/finishing-off-bike2.html
The weight of the motor,, hub, spokes, tube and tire is 5.43 kg (I use very heavy tubes, and a gel insert because I do cross-country).
The LCD does volts, speed, watts and temperature. But I think the temperature is ambient, not the motor. I'm not sure of that yet. Nine wires come out of the motor; three power, five hall, so what's the other one? Temperature, surely?
There's "walk the bike" setting and five levels of pedelec.
The bike goes forward nicely, but sometimes it refuses to let me wheel it backwards, I'm not sure what the circumstances for that are yet.
Changing gear takes maybe a second, during which you have no power.
The auto for gear changing only seems to work sometimes. But the high/low always works.
Peak watts with the controller I have is 400w. Mine is the KT sinewave controller.
I couldn't see how you can limit the "full throttle".
Overall impression so far ... I like it a lot.
I've done a couple of blog posts on this:
http://blog.drsolly.com/2014/08/rebuilding-bike2.html
http://blog.drsolly.com/2014/08/finishing-off-bike2.html
The weight of the motor,, hub, spokes, tube and tire is 5.43 kg (I use very heavy tubes, and a gel insert because I do cross-country).
The LCD does volts, speed, watts and temperature. But I think the temperature is ambient, not the motor. I'm not sure of that yet. Nine wires come out of the motor; three power, five hall, so what's the other one? Temperature, surely?
There's "walk the bike" setting and five levels of pedelec.
The bike goes forward nicely, but sometimes it refuses to let me wheel it backwards, I'm not sure what the circumstances for that are yet.
Changing gear takes maybe a second, during which you have no power.
The auto for gear changing only seems to work sometimes. But the high/low always works.
Peak watts with the controller I have is 400w. Mine is the KT sinewave controller.
I couldn't see how you can limit the "full throttle".
Overall impression so far ... I like it a lot.
docnjoj
1 GW
That is good news, Drsolly. Mine should be ready, one way or the other by tomorrow. I hope that I don't have to redo the lace. Not that much fun.
otherDoc
otherDoc
endlessly_ending
10 W
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- Apr 27, 2013
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drsolly said:
The wire left is a speed signal.
Thus the display can even show actual speed when the motor is off.
drsolly said:
This seems to be a feature of the Lishui sine wave and KM-5S combo
###
By the way, a new firmware said to be correcting my problems with manual gear switch at the Lishui sine wave controller already did arrive the day before yesterday.
Will see how I can dump it to the controller this weekend.
docnjoj
1 GW
Got my wheel/motor back from the bike shop. I had to grind a few spokes down that stick up too high, but those spokes are under good tension. Sooooo........it looks like it will take all day to remove old 9C and stuff and put on the Xiongda stuff. I'll take some pictures. Then road test. Hopefully road test tomorrow. I'm gonna try it out with the grease that is in the motor. I'll regrease after a week or if the noise is unbearable.
otherDoc
otherDoc
I took the bike out for a test run. It's powered by 12s of Lipo. The summary of my testing, is that it's the bike I plan to take out when I next go out geocaching. Which means I'm happy with it.
In low gear, the top speed was 12mph, in top gear it was 20 on the level. That's pretty good for a 250 watt motor.
I took it to my local steep hill test road. It climbed it at 7 or 8 mph, with only a very slight encouragement of pedalling; most of the hill it could climb without any help.
The voltage display is nice; the watts display is good, but I have my own wattmeter, which revealed that the max amps was 15 (not surprising, that's set by the controller) and the max watts was 750 (which is because I was pulling 50 volts x 15 amps). It's also nice that there's a speedometer. You can choose units of miles or kilometers.
There's 5 levels of PAS; I haven't tried that out as I prefer throttle. There's also a level which is "walking speed", which is about 4mph, and the bike keeps on going as long as you have your finger pressed on the display's button (which means that if it runs away from you, it'll cut power).
The thermometer on the bike display is useless. I think it's displaying the temperature of the air, it certainly isn't showing the motor or controller temperature. My own thermometer (an aquarium thermometer, cost me about a pound) turned out to be excellent. I checked its display with an infra-red thermometer, and by feeling the motor. The axle is hotter than the casing, and it peaked at 36 degrees C, feeling really quite warm (but remember my blood heat is about 40, so not really hot). It might be possible to put a few more amps through the motor.
The autoshift does work; when the speed falls to around 7 or 8, it changes to low gear, and at 12 or so it changes to high. But, obviously, it has no anticipation. When it changes gear, you lose power for about a second. My feeling is that I'll prefer to make my own choice when to be in low and when to be in high, based not only on my current speed, but also on what I can see coming up ahead of me. So I think that for me, the autoshift won't be very useful.
Which means that I could replace the controller with any controller that will let the motor go in reverse at full speed.
Anyone got any recommendations?
In low gear, the top speed was 12mph, in top gear it was 20 on the level. That's pretty good for a 250 watt motor.
I took it to my local steep hill test road. It climbed it at 7 or 8 mph, with only a very slight encouragement of pedalling; most of the hill it could climb without any help.
The voltage display is nice; the watts display is good, but I have my own wattmeter, which revealed that the max amps was 15 (not surprising, that's set by the controller) and the max watts was 750 (which is because I was pulling 50 volts x 15 amps). It's also nice that there's a speedometer. You can choose units of miles or kilometers.
There's 5 levels of PAS; I haven't tried that out as I prefer throttle. There's also a level which is "walking speed", which is about 4mph, and the bike keeps on going as long as you have your finger pressed on the display's button (which means that if it runs away from you, it'll cut power).
The thermometer on the bike display is useless. I think it's displaying the temperature of the air, it certainly isn't showing the motor or controller temperature. My own thermometer (an aquarium thermometer, cost me about a pound) turned out to be excellent. I checked its display with an infra-red thermometer, and by feeling the motor. The axle is hotter than the casing, and it peaked at 36 degrees C, feeling really quite warm (but remember my blood heat is about 40, so not really hot). It might be possible to put a few more amps through the motor.
The autoshift does work; when the speed falls to around 7 or 8, it changes to low gear, and at 12 or so it changes to high. But, obviously, it has no anticipation. When it changes gear, you lose power for about a second. My feeling is that I'll prefer to make my own choice when to be in low and when to be in high, based not only on my current speed, but also on what I can see coming up ahead of me. So I think that for me, the autoshift won't be very useful.
Which means that I could replace the controller with any controller that will let the motor go in reverse at full speed.
Anyone got any recommendations?
docnjoj
1 GW
Could you not just use the Xiongda controller and shift it manually?
otherDoc
otherDoc
Yes, I can and do. But the Xiongda controller is limited to 15 amps, and I'd like to try running it with a bit more. The fact that I'm likely to not use the autoshifter, means that any controller that lets the bike go full speed in reverse, would suit the motor. I'd rather not modify the shunt in the controller.
endlessly_ending
10 W
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- Apr 27, 2013
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If you throw +750W on the XiongDa its likely to not last for very long IMO
Geared hubs of such small size are pretty limited on what they can take, both mechanically and thermally
For hot rodder its a simpe trade off one has to be aware of, I'm interested to hear how your experiment turns out though
Geared hubs of such small size are pretty limited on what they can take, both mechanically and thermally
For hot rodder its a simpe trade off one has to be aware of, I'm interested to hear how your experiment turns out though
20a at 36v is 720w, so that's about the same as my 15a at 50v
I'm aware of the possibility of damaging the motor. But
A) I have a temperature sensor stuck to it, and in my run yesterday, that reached 36C
B) I'm geocaching. That means short runs of maybe 300 to 500 meters, interlaced with stops to search for the cache (2 to 20 minutes) during which the motor can cool down.
The motor cost $116, so the downside isn't hugely expensive.
I'm aware of the possibility of damaging the motor. But
A) I have a temperature sensor stuck to it, and in my run yesterday, that reached 36C
B) I'm geocaching. That means short runs of maybe 300 to 500 meters, interlaced with stops to search for the cache (2 to 20 minutes) during which the motor can cool down.
The motor cost $116, so the downside isn't hugely expensive.
endlessly_ending
10 W
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d8veh said:
Huuhh, that sounds cool !
did you use that 20A in low gear at extended climbs as well?
docnjoj
1 GW
Initial bench test: Rear wheel elevated.
it started off fine but after I fiddled with the KT-LCD3 a bit the automatic shift started hunting between low and high. It could be it needs higher watts to work correctly, like being on the road. That should come later today.
Other problem is the speedometer does not work now. It did with initial settings. Could be me so back to the instructions. Motor is fairly quiet. but the real test comes on the road. Now to remove the old Sinewave and LCD-1 and put on the new stuff. Pictures at 6 PM or so.
otherDoc
it started off fine but after I fiddled with the KT-LCD3 a bit the automatic shift started hunting between low and high. It could be it needs higher watts to work correctly, like being on the road. That should come later today.
Other problem is the speedometer does not work now. It did with initial settings. Could be me so back to the instructions. Motor is fairly quiet. but the real test comes on the road. Now to remove the old Sinewave and LCD-1 and put on the new stuff. Pictures at 6 PM or so.
otherDoc
endlessly_ending
10 W
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endlessly_ending said:
Finally had some time to check the new Lishui sine wave controller firmware that was sent to me by XinogDa.
First of all, if you are not fluently in Mandarin (or whatever) you are out of luck.
Or at least almost so.
There are two CD's that come shipped together with the ST-Link, both of which install mainly with chinese characters.
At least I got a glimps of what possibly could be needed and after some search I found the english version on the manufacturers page:
http://www.st.com/web/en/catalog/tools/PF258168#
Installatiion is quite straight forward and drivers also did install with no troubles on a XP machine.
The next hurdle to be taken was to plug the ST-Link to the controller in a way to not destroy it.
There is no coding on the plugs and the cable running from the ST-Link isn't exactly what you would call professional.
So I first tried to check with a multimeter to find "ground" from USB to the ST-Link plug (in my case "gnd" was the blue wire) and then I tried to find "ground" from the controller supply to the controller plug (made a mark on the plug right away).
Well, seems I was a lucky guy, as dumping the firmware then went without any errors.
Dumping the hex file is without connecting the battery to the controller.
Sadly the new firmware did not solve the manual gear switch (I definitely must check again if there might be something with the cables).and second level programming through the KM-5S still isnt accessible.
Bad news is, that the battery current is now cut back form previousely about 17A to roughly 13A, not that welcome in hilly areas.
endlessly_ending
10 W
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docnjoj said:
This is "normal" with automatic shift.
When shifting to low gear, there is much more torque and thus speed rises and so the controller shifts up to high gear - gets slowed down as having too low torque for your break and so on.
Seen from this perspecive its better to not ask for a fixed speed where it shifts gear but to decide on a clever mix of speed and torque when to actually shift up or down.
IMO the KT rectangular controller works pretty well in this regard.
docnjoj
1 GW
Thanks endlessly. One other problem is that on 36 volts the motor only spins up to 17-18mph free running.. It may be the slow speed motor. I have a 20 " wheel, so it may be too slow. Again, a road test is the only way to be sure.
