≤2000w 96V charger ~$5

I don't understand what 'electricity' is, or how any electrical components actually work.

I can give you the generally accepted concept of an inductor in my own words though, but understand it can only be a model.

For any and every bit of motion of current, a magnetic field is created proportionately to the magnitude of the current. Even if you instantly apply say 1000vdc to just shorting a tiny 1cm piece of big fat 0000awg cable, there is a delay where a magnetic field must grow before that current can flow in this short. This is the current rise time in the circuit. People often represent it as change in current over change in time, or dI/dT. It just means the rate current is rising.

If you have a device that only sends spikes of voltage (like these DIAC/TRIAC/QUADRAC) chopper circuits provide as output, and you simply connected some big resistive/capacitive load right on this output with no inductance in the circuit (which would be impossible), each spike would cause current spikes proportional to the V=IR heating of that voltage of the spikes. This could mean you are making a 10A average current to the battery by sending 1000A current spikes on a 1% duty cycle. The SCRs get hammered. The power factor is hammered. The losses are massive and the electrical noise radiated would look wild of your had a good spectrum analyzer to gain the illusion of observing it.

If you take the same circuit, but add in a inductance value great enough as to prevent the inductor from saturating, the spikes in voltage will no longer be causing 1000A spikes, rather they will just be absorbed completely into the resulting magnetic field imposed in the core of the inductor. Then when the voltage spike ends, rather than current falling off, the core of the inductor has energy stored in its core, that now begins to collapse. As it's field collapses, the field lines cutting through the windings result in a BEMF induced voltage much the same as when you move your motor tooth by a magnet. The energy of this field collapsing induces the BEMF voltage to continue to drive current during the whole "off" period for the SCR.

The end effect for your circuit:
What was once 100A-1000A destructive inefficient spikes becomes smoothed, steady DC with the optimal inductor.

This is a situation where even a non optimal inductor would help quite a lot though. I have seen your work and know you have made being cheap into a sport/virtue. You can make your own inductor by simply coiling wire. However, you will need to make a very large coil if it doesn't have a core to equal the same effect as a small core on an iron core.

You can make one by chucking a 1/2 drive extension in a cordless drill to wrap it with 10awg. It's a poor core material though due to eddys.
 
-e = L di/dt.
Was how it was explained to us.
Similar to a capacitor, but swap voltage/ current. e = BEMF, so the amount of inductance and the rate of change of current, is directly proportional to the opposing voltage rise created in the coil, this obviously will opposes the current rise.
The magnetic material used in the coil core, here we go rusty here, permeability, hysteresis and all that.
I think, in our case, correct me if i'm wrong, we want to have the core magnetic field, set up by the current in rush, to be able to grow and collapse, at least within the time frame of the a rise from zero of the wave, to it's fall to zero, otherwise the core will try to retain the field, this depends on the core material.
We also want a substantial current in our case for 2kW.

The current surge available from the wall outlet, like you say could be a good average of 1kA, it depends on cabling back to your utility transformer.
This leads on to then the circuit 'impedance' (r +l) that will limit the current, the whole round journey, what do you reckon few hundred amps.

All in all it'll have been a good look at simple chopping circuits and could lead onto a better FET based switcher.
I think there will be a fairly simple solution that won't need to be a full blown complicated switch mode design, that well could be able to deliver the 2 or 3kW needed for this job cheaply, with the big bonus of controlability, sure losses may be high, but it's not a full blown engineering project, it's bulk charge on the fly.
 
I switched the final iteration on with an additional 10k pot in line in with the gate circuit, I was seeing some charging happening at one point, but yeh I think you have to have that coil right as I was getting a very fine trigger point even with the fine control and the protection breaker I got on the circuit is seeing the surge as a prospective overload and can see this in a couple of millisecs.
I think triggering was sporadic too, as the gate control is'nt brilliant, a zero crossing diac firing it would be better, or better voltage control on gate, oh yeh more inductance for sure my little 30 mm toroid is' nt quite cutting it, up to $10 now, sorry Angel :wink:
 
We should be using our own motor windings as the inductor for the charger! Just put the charge output in series with any 2 phase leads, and I bet your dimmer switch will survive much longer than before.
 
WARNING! in case you didn't know Electricity is dangerous! ... to placate the fear mongers ...

Just found the box of 50uf 370 VAC run capacitors I picked up a while back.
DIELEKTROL VI 97F9009

If my calculations are right ...
DrkAngel said:
AC cap on the AC side for current limiting.

Extrapolating from:
220V AC
"40uF = 2.5A "
"80 MFD 440V that cost $16. Puts out 3A continuous at 120V."
"70-82 mfd = 4.6a"
"250uF = 15A"
>325V capable required for 220V!

Then:
10uF = .625A
20uF = 1.25A
30uF = 1.875A
40uF = 2.5A
50uF = 3A
100uF = 6A
150uF = 9A
200uF = 12A
250uF = 15A
300uF = 18A

...
That should give me an AC source of a solid regulated 3A.

Gives me something to play with while I wait for my SCRs to arrive.
Think I got 10 for less than $2 each at an auction.

Alternate source for AC run capacitor Amp values.
220 - 240VAC
AC cap.jpg
⅛hp = 746w x .125 = 93.2 output watts @ 60% (inductive motor) = 155w/220V = .7Amps - 4~5uF
½hp = 746w x .5 = 373 output watts @ 60% (inductive motor) = 620w/220V = 2.8Amps - 10uF
1hp = 746w x 1 = 746 output watts @ 60% (inductive motor) = 1240w/220V = 5.6Amps - ~10uF
2hp = 746w x 2 = 1492 output watts @ 60% (inductive motor) = 2480w/220V = 11.2Amps - ~15uF
3hp = 746w x 3 = 2260 output watts @ 60% (inductive motor) = 3720w/220V = 16.8Amps - 20uF
5hp = 746w x 5 = 3730 output watts @ 60% (inductive motor) = 6200w/220V = 28Amps - 40uF

Sadly, these figures differ greatly from those previously noted by ES members!

Anyone know of any reputable sources for AC capacitor uF - Amps?

WARNING! in case you didn't know Electricity is dangerous! ... to placate the fear mongers ...
 
liveforphysics said:
We should be using our own motor windings as the inductor for the charger! Just put the charge output in series with any 2 phase leads, and I bet your dimmer switch will survive much longer than before.

Brilliant Luke.
The insulation class should be OK.
and can put a 100A through it now.
10kW bad boy with a wire wound antenna :mrgreen:
 
DrkAngel said:
Extrapolating from:
220V AC
"40uF = 2.5A "
"80 MFD 440V that cost $16. Puts out 3A continuous at 120V."
"70-82 mfd = 4.6a"
"250uF = 15A"
>325V capable required for 220V!

Then:
10uF = .625A
20uF = 1.25A
30uF = 1.875A
40uF = 2.5A
50uF = 3A
100uF = 6A
150uF = 9A
200uF = 12A
250uF = 15A
.

Just a general comment, the current flow will also depend on the pack it's connected to, can be wildly different depending on voltage and paralleling
 
megacycle said:
DrkAngel said:
Extrapolating from:
220V AC
"40uF = 2.5A "
"80 MFD 440V that cost $16. Puts out 3A continuous at 120V."
"70-82 mfd = 4.6a"
"250uF = 15A"
>325V capable required for 220V!

Then:
10uF = .625A
20uF = 1.25A
30uF = 1.875A
40uF = 2.5A
50uF = 3A
100uF = 6A
150uF = 9A
200uF = 12A
250uF = 15A
.

Just a general comment, the current flow will also depend on the pack it's connected to, can be wildly different depending on voltage and paralleling

On the battery side, once the inductor is in there it's a buck-converter making whatever current, but on the AC side it seems like it would be at least inside a 2x current window? Am I not viewing the circuit correctly somewhere my friend?
 
I was just going on Angel, temporarily, reverting back to just the series cap, so should have reactance of the cap and it's volt drop against the impedance of the battery and the voltage difference between the dc supply and battery.

See if I can hook this beast up tonite
 
so what do you guys think of this idea for a faster at home charger? (maybe 1 charge in 10)
Hook scr dimmer to 120vac, then to
old microwave oven transformer,
output to bridge,
then charge, adjusting input.
does it need inductor or is transformer ok?
thanks!
 
Matt Gruber said:
so what do you guys think of this idea for a faster at home charger? (maybe 1 charge in 10)
Hook scr dimmer to 120vac, then to
old microwave oven transformer,
output to bridge,
then charge, adjusting input.
does it need inductor or is transformer ok?
thanks!


Sounds like a terrible idea to me. Get distracted by something and your house burns down.

This type of charger is not a good idea for anything but an emergency backup charger to grab a few Ah to make it home.

In my own humble opinion, it would be foolish to ever even walk away from the bike or stop monitoring the charge while using such a crude system like this.
 
sounds like a thumbs up to me.
as i said maybe 1 charge in 10, and i would watch it. might only be once just to see it work. or for a rare quick boost going out again.
you guys don't watch experiments charge? :shock:
I've been hearing this BURN HOUSE DOWN crap for 7 years and no fires even when i shorted a cell out to make it burn; got a little smoke :roll:
now take a gallon of gas, that you can start a fire with.
let's see you start a fire with sony V cells. I DARE YOU. PROVE IT!
 
I've been able to get it to work using the two phases of the wheel, in the battery circuit, as you suggested Luke.
With the basic gate circuit, the trigger point is very fine though and it still kept on pulling over 30A from the 240V outlet, tripping the breaker in a few seconds
This would be flogging the battery too @ around 6C.
At bit less like 4 or 5C, would be good bulk for me.
This circuit would pump over 60A into the 120V, 8Ah pack, on my 240V AC scheme, if the gate was full on.
Which could happen, if like in this simple circuit the gate is too sensitive to changes.
Better control over the triac, waveform would be good, as Heath suggested using a diac chip and possibly use trailing edge control

You guys in the USA could be better off, if you have around 100V packs as your only dealing with half the voltage, as us, on your 120V AC schemes and your voltage difference will be smaller, hopefully helping to limit your current.
I need a 2P pack to rearrange to series for charging to bring me up to 200V.
.
 
Matt Gruber said:
so i'm doing a little test,
i plugged a 15v 2.4a wall wart into a lamp dimmer
with just ONE 18650, 1/10 the pack size at 1/10 the volts
just turn the knob to set the amps,
tried 2.4a, then set it back to 1a, now .5a
easy to use, just wanted to see that it works.
went from 3.92v to 4.09 in about 15 minutes.
.
so this works because the transformer serves as an inductor. there weren't any warnings of inpending doom when i first posted this, so it does seem to be a possibility.
With my 955 watt microwave transformer and the scr dimmer i should be able to charge the SLA's on my e-bike, for a quick boost. Seems many guys think lithium are not safe, so there is no rush to put them on, while you guys are working out the safety issues. :wink:
 
WARNING! in case you didn't know Electricity is dangerous! ... to placate the fear mongers ...

Matt Gruber said:
Matt Gruber said:
so i'm doing a little test,
i plugged a 15v 2.4a wall wart into a lamp dimmer
with just ONE 18650, 1/10 the pack size at 1/10 the volts
just turn the knob to set the amps,
tried 2.4a, then set it back to 1a, now .5a
easy to use, just wanted to see that it works.
went from 3.92v to 4.09 in about 15 minutes.
.
so this works because the transformer serves as an inductor. there weren't any warnings of inpending doom when i first posted this, so it does seem to be a possibility.
With my 955 watt microwave transformer and the scr dimmer i should be able to charge the SLA's on my e-bike, for a quick boost. Seems many guys think lithium are not safe, so there is no rush to put them on, while you guys are working out the safety issues. :wink:
AC >>> Dimmer >>> Bridge rectifier >>> transformer ... might give good clean DC.
But transformer path is different than an inductor ... so maybe not.

Let the experts decide ... ?

Might be able to test with a cap?
Check metered output without and with DC cap, (after transformer).
(Use 165V+ cap for 110V AC and 330V+ cap for 220VAC ... just to be safe, safety goggles are always a good idea too!)
(minimum of 150% of max transformer volt output!)
wo/cap would be average output voltage
w/cap voltage rise should demonstrate inductor effectiveness, or lack thereof.

Using half of a transformer should make a great inductor! ... ?
(Need to pull 1 bank of windings?)

WARNING! in case you didn't know Electricity is dangerous! ... to placate the fear mongers ...
 
I'm all for experimentation and learning by doing, but there seems to be an awful lot of blind guesswork going on here. When playing with mains electricity I feel a certain competence is required before starting. Connecting random components to the mains supply and seeing what happens is a bit risky IMO. If I were to undertake such a project I would learn the relevant electrical theory before breaking out the wire cutters :)
 
Punx0r said:
If I were to undertake such a project I would learn the relevant electrical theory before breaking out the wire cutters :)

I keep waiting for this thread to end with a description of the explosion and fire that will inevitably result. I mean, there are plenty of quality, off-the-shelf chargers already available, and they don't cost that much to start with.

This seems about the worst way to save money next to picking up a crack habit to save money on food.
 
you really don't get it.
one purpose is to show how a simple fuse allows hobbyists to experiment without anything more than a blown fuse.
Let's say the scr shorts while charging my sla. the 10a fuse will surely blow very fast. There is a reason fuses were invented!
Sure lots of guys pay more to get a charger that can desulphate sla's.
Maybe a rough DC willdo the same job, or maybe it will just prevent sulphation in the first place. I'm not going to invest in a high quality sla charger when sla are all but obsolete. How do you think desulphation was discovered in the 1st place? maybe by charging thru an scr! who knows!
Anyway when the sla dies i won't be buying more, as i think dewalt/makita tool packs are far superior, with no reports of houses burning down.
 
WARNING! in case you didn't know Electricity is dangerous! ... to placate the fear mongers ...

Yeah ... I guess every post should include a warning to fuse or regulate, though a light bulb or heating element etc., for those who just casually peruse without really reading.

WARNING! in case you didn't know Electricity is dangerous! ... to placate the fear mongers ...
 
spisska said:
Punx0r said:
If I were to undertake such a project I would learn the relevant electrical theory before breaking out the wire cutters :)

I keep waiting for this thread to end with a description of the explosion and fire that will inevitably result. I mean, there are plenty of quality, off-the-shelf chargers already available, and they don't cost that much to start with.

This seems about the worst way to save money next to picking up a crack habit to save money on food.
For most, it is not about saving money. It is about being able to carry a fast and compact charging solution on the bike. I personnally, never charge my RC lipo without constant monitoring because I charge them very fast. The only chargers that could be carried practically on my bikes are very slow. I don't care if it is dangerous if it is small and fast, I ride and charge dangerously all the time anyway. I never did set fire to my batteries but always act like I will, and I wouldn't mind doing so.
 
Matt Gruber said:
you really don't get it.
one purpose is to show how a simple fuse allows hobbyists to experiment without anything more than a blown fuse.

Reading that I'm concerned that perhaps you don't get it?

A fire is a one concern and a fuse may or may not help prevent it. The principal concern is electrocution by 400VDC and obviously a fuse will do squat to prevent that.

megacycle mentions tripping his 30A 240V breaker. What current is that likely to be? 50A? 60A? Through a standard 10A socket?

These kinds of power supplies have been around since the early days of domestic electricity and they were considered dangerous back then.
 
Punx0r said:
Matt Gruber said:
you really don't get it.
one purpose is to show how a simple fuse allows hobbyists to experiment without anything more than a blown fuse.

Reading that I'm concerned that perhaps you don't get it?

A fire is a one concern and a fuse may or may not help prevent it. The principal concern is electrocution by 400VDC and obviously a fuse will do squat to prevent that.

megacycle mentions tripping his 30A 240V breaker. What current is that likely to be? 50A? 60A? Through a standard 10A socket?

These kinds of power supplies have been around since the early days of domestic electricity and they were considered dangerous back then.

That's why I would never, never, use a fuse while experimenting.
With the full value of current available in the circuit with triac full on, the breaker protecting the circuit was a 10A, 'C' curve.
There's two methods of operating, magnetic and thermal.
The magnetic trip should detect a fast rising current into a short circuit, e.g. If i did'nt use the wheel inductor.
This trip can happen in a few milliseconds, remember the damage is done by I2t, so 'l' could be heading to hundreds of amps at a short at the plug, but will never reach this, as half a 50Hz cycle is 10mS and the fault power would end up limited to like a few watts.
You have to remember too, you can get transient in a lot of equipment, like air conditioning compressor motors, other motors and inductive circuits, it's not unusual.
The 60A I turned up to, measured full on, was about to trip in like 2 seconds or so, this overload can't be sustained anyway and will trip, design rated to protect around 1mm2 cable insulation from heat damage.
With an actual component fault, yes you might see fireworks, depends on the nature of the fault, we could get that happen with other mains equipment, that's why they have overload/short circuit protection and I've sized mine fairly tight, up to now hav'nt had any bangs, had a tiny flash from a solder blob across the triac in and out, DON'T USE A FUSE.
Also have to remember these aren't GFC's (RCD's) and won't stop you getting shocked to ground from a live a.c. terminal, the d.c. will boot you anyway and the rectified 240V, you don't want go near it.

If your not wearing protective electrical gloves and safety glasses, or leaving this gear unattended, or unmonitored, volts/amps, cell levels, you'd have to be nuts, I just want to bulk with this set up.
 
Thanks for the clarification on the c-curve breaker and the additional safety warnings :) Such experiments are safe enough for someone with the correct knowledge and care, I just get concerned when explicit warnings are absent, as you don't know who might read this thread and think it's a viable alternative to a switch mode supply.
 
well, you lost me on this NO FUSE idea. Is this what they now teach in school, or did you dream this up yourself?
i'm in my lazy-boy chair watching it charge, exactly how do i get shocked?
In the last 20 years i had 2 fuses blow. One was a 1a fuse on a wall wart input, the other was a 5a fuse on the output. These were not factory fuses, but installed by me as a precaution. Explain why i did not get a shock or damage anything.
I do agree high voltage is dangerous; i don't feel comfortable with more than two 18v tool packs in series or 3 sla; 36v is my max. 42v max on charge sony V, 44.8v sla.
This fear of HV is why i like the idea of using a 955 watt microwave transformer, since it isolates it from the house ac. the house ac will NEVER go direct to the battery no matter what gizmo shorts out.
 
Hang on, what exactly are you doing with this microwave oven transformer? I assumed you removed the secondary winding and were using the primary winding as a makeshift inductor? That doesn't provide any mains isolation. If the secondary is intact then you have ~5kV flying around.

megacycle was describing the use of a circuit breaker instead of a fuse.

Using a circuit once and not dying proves only that the circuit is not 100% lethal. It's fairly trivial to calculate your probable risk of electrocution based on the number of times you've successfully used the circuit using basic statistics.
 
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