Amberwolf's Delta Trike Build v1.0 (The Delta Tripper)

[amberwolf]

The fork doesn't appear to have any particular "yank" to it, in that it only moves when I want it to...it's just that any movement of it tends to result in quite immediate steering in that direction, so if I compensate for bumps in road and whatnot with manual steering (kind of an automatic reaction), it is already too late to worry about and results in steer in the opposite direction instead of compensation.

So I'll have to
A) learn not to do that
or
B) build it as a leaner/tilter so it will be more bike-like in it's responses

I think B) will be more effective, because I'm not sure how long it will take me to do A). Could be years. :lol:


It doesnt' really have much self-centering, but I'm not worried about that; it's more the instant steering response that gets me, "twitchiness". I've got slow reaction times to begin with, so I could easily reach a cascade failure of overcompensation with this setup if I don't learn to handle it correctly. Of course, it's worse the faster I go, but that's normal.



Most likely I will end up with something more like a short CrazyBike2, pedals over the front wheel, with me basically sitting just behind the front wheel and my feet just in front of the wheel, just hgh enough abvove it to provide crank and foot clearance during pedalling. Presently I have exact clearance to avoid heelstrike on the tire during a turn, so to lower them I must put the boom farther forward, which means moving my seat farther forward, too.


I don't much like having my feet up that high, besides blocking my view of the road it is also uncomfortable to my neck having to crane it forward too much, if the seat is angled backward more to compensate.


So the next best thing I can do is make a tadpole trike, so the cranks can be where the front wheel is, pretty much like CrazyBike2, but with teh wheels out to the sides of it. But this is a completely custom frame to do up, and way more work to finish. We're already back to the joint-hurty weather so I'm not doing very much right now, till it gets better or I find a free bucket of good painkillers that won't kill me, too. :lol:

 

[Chalo]

The fork doesn't appear to have any particular "yank" to it, in that it only moves when I want it to...it's just that any movement of it tends to result in quite immediate steering in that direction, so if I compensate for bumps in road and whatnot with manual steering (kind of an automatic reaction), it is already too late to worry about and results in steer in the opposite direction instead of compensation.

You could put a steering damper on there, for instance a dashpot on a linkage arm. That would attenuate sudden movements.

 

[amberwolf]

True. ATM I have the bearings on the steerer tightned down excessively, to cause it to be harder to turn so ti doens't jitter from road pebbling bumps.

 

[emiyata]

AW you need a curved fork. It should have an offset of at least 2". It looks like your seat is too far forward and moving your seat back should help some. I think I can get you the type of fork but the bikes in the junk yard are covered with snow. It will be spring until I can get the part. He never charges much for parts. PM me if you need me to enter that part on my list to pickup in the spring.

Good luck

 

[amberwolf]

Have you experience at setting up trike steering?

FWIW, steering is not that big an issue. It's the tippiness that's a problem, and that is going to require basically buildng a whole new trike to fix, because I don't have any good way to do it with the existing trike kit or any other bike frame I have.

Also, if you look at the present trike, there is no way to move the seat back; I'd be sitting over the axles, inside my cargo area--the seat back is already resting against the cargo carrier on top. And I couldnt' reach the pedals, because I can't move the cranks back much further than you see, without interfering with the fork crown via heelstrike at every downstroke.

If I make the trike longer, the tippiness would get worse. (I already proved that with CrazyBike2's temporary mounting of the trike kit at the bottom of hte first page of the thread; even though it is lower and I used smaller wheels, I almost tipped it over even at very low speeds).

 

[emiyata]

AW I can only tell you how I made a standard trike at higher speeds more stable. I can't help with petal issues or other issues with your feet up.

If you can find 3 bathroom scales and put one under each wheel you will know your weight distribution . It looks like the weight is in the back of the bike but pictures can be deceiving .

Good luck

 

[Chalo]

AW you need a curved fork. It should have an offset of at least 2".

Head angle and fork offset work together. If AW puts a 2" offset fork on that head angle, he'll have negative trail, which is to say steering that prefers to flip around backwards upon encountering any resistance. He'd have to slacken the head angle by several degrees before a 2" offset fork made sense.

Also, what is right for a bike is quite wrong for a trike, even though that is what some manufacturers use.

 

[emiyata]

AW go to this picture http://www.electric-bikes.com/trikes/trikes23.jpg I was thinking you should be heading more this direction.

 

[Sancho's Horse]

AW,
I just don't see a way out of the tipping issue, not without some seriously different geometry. The only two ways to effectively reduce tipping tendencies are by lowering the center of gravity or widening the track. Both look to be some serious mods with your rig.

On mine I have a lot of very heavy things very low. The diferential is 12" off the ground (with heavy 1" axle +hydraulic brake accoutrements), the batteries will be only 8" off the ground, with a backup set at only 14", my trailer has the hitch up higher, but where the weight of that hitch is actually transmitted to the frame is only 8-1/2" off the ground, the motor axle is ~20" off the ground but I am hoping for a little gyroscopic effect to help, and this is on a rig with a track which is 44" wide inside of wheel to inside of wheel. This width brings my tipping point COG to 23-1/2". The COG must stay within a triangle 23-1/2" at the center of the trike down to the spot where the center of each back wheel makes contact with the road. Yours looks like a triangle with an apex at only 12-14". This is a very tall order, and the further you get the COG above this 12-14" mark the greater the likelihood of tipping, and the greater the amount of force being transmitted (due to length of lever arm) in the tip. And I still feel that tipping will not be a completely resolved issue on my trike.

Lengthening the rig can handle some stability at speeds, but as you noticed, it doesn't do much for tipping. It just opens up the space in which you can move the COG, but does not help tipping point COG. The front wheel geometry doesn't really help with tipping in a turn either (unless it is completely wrong in which case it can hurt). It is largely a matter of preference. I prefer the bigger offset. It allows the bike to continue forward without as much tendency for pull inducing occurances to create movement in the wheel/handlebars.

If you are going with what you have trike kit setup wise (i.e. width, etc.), how about getting radical with it. See about some really, really small scooter hub wheels, think 12-14" which you can lace the motor into. Radical I know. But if you don't mind pulling trailers, they could help with COG, hauling ability, seat placement possibilities, etc. But the one brake issue. Dude, sorry...I just don't know. Pain...unlike other nerves, where they quickly can be tuned out, it just does not go away. The short term effectiveness of treatment will always be there. In fact, if you give up on treatment before it loses effectiveness it may be better. I recommend exercise. I know...I know...I am not some exercise weirdo. I am not into the weight lifting, running, etc. leave that for everyone else. I have done that, but for me walking, and stretching, and whatever comes with the chores I have to do daily is the best exercise. Big fan of stretching. Stretch to where there is some tenderness and stop. Do this a few times each day and boom we have exercise for those in pain. No cardio in this, but you not sleeping, and the stress that this causes to accumulate means who cares about the cardio? Not yoga, unless you are into that, just a little more time each day stretching your body out. I have kids who are willing to stomp all over me, this helps a lot. They also demand to be flung around, so, I am getting more than my fair share. I knew a cat that gave excellent massages, and several dogs that were adept at flopping up against you to god effect, maybe not as effective as kids crawling around on you, kneeing you in the groin, etc. but every little bit helps.

 

[amberwolf]

AW I can only tell you how I made a standard trike at higher speeds more stable.

Well, the problem is really with tipping, but I suspect that preventing "wiggle" steering issues is gonna require a damper. I may experiment with other head angles or trail amounts, etc., but I'm pretty sure Chalo's right and having as little as possible is a good idea.

If you can find 3 bathroom scales and put one under each wheel you will know your weight distribution . It looks like the weight is in the back of the bike but pictures can be deceiving .

Most of the wieght is right where Im sitting, as this trike doesn't weigh all that much--even with the battery and motor I doubt it hits 80-90lbs, cuz I could almost dead-lift it (not that I'd want to, but I'm usually very strong ina dead lift straight up, with knees locked and just lifting something from belly height to mid-chest height, and if I can handle the pain I can do it with my knees from the ground, but that's only an emergency kind of thing these days), and I can't quite do that with either Hachi or Nana anymore, and they each weigh just over 100lbs last time I checked.

I only have two scales but I can probably setup a board across one scale and balance both rear wheels on that, and the other scale on the front. Then I could raise up the front by the height of the scales and then reweigh the rear one under each wheel, to get left/rgith distribution ratio to apply to the total rear weigth. But it's not in the "plan" for a while to do that (or much of anything else on the trike).

AW go to this picture http://www.electric-bikes.com/trikes/trikes23.jpg I was thinking you should be heading more this direction.

Problem with that version is it has no cargo space, or at least, not nearly enough for what I have to be able to carry. I'd have to move the rear wheels back by at least 2 feet, and at that point I'd have a trike about as long as CrazyBike2 was with the trike kit (maybe even longer), with about the same COG characteristics, and I already know that would be worse tipping problems than what I've got here with Delta Tripper.

Best compromise is to do something like what "trike23" pic shows

but with cranks over front wheel to shorten the wheelbase a lot, yet seat down low like that. But that puts my seating postion very laid back, and I don't think I can see well enough to safely ride like that, as I doubt I can handle the head/neck position it would require.

I just don't see a way out of the tipping issue, not without some seriously different geometry. The only two ways to effectively reduce tipping tendencies are by lowering the center of gravity or widening the track. Both look to be some serious mods with your rig.

Yes, and basically lead me to have to build a completely new trike instead. This trike is still useful, but only if I slow greatly for turns, and avoid all traffic situations that might require any kind of emergency steering maneuvers.

On mine I have a lot of very heavy things very low. The diferential is 12" off the ground (with heavy 1" axle +hydraulic brake accoutrements), the batteries will be only 8" off the ground, with a backup set at only 14", my trailer has the hitch up higher, but where the weight of that hitch is actually transmitted to the frame is only 8-1/2" off the ground, the motor axle is ~20" off the ground but I am hoping for a little gyroscopic effect to help, and this is on a rig with a track which is 44" wide inside of wheel to inside of wheel. This width brings my tipping point COG to 23-1/2". The COG must stay within a triangle 23-1/2" at the center of the trike down to the spot where the center of each back wheel makes contact with the road.

That's probably more like what I'd be after, but not possible with this trike.

Yours looks like a triangle with an apex at only 12-14". This is a very tall order, and the further you get the COG above this 12-14" mark the greater the likelihood of tipping, and the greater the amount of force being transmitted (due to length of lever arm) in the tip. And I still feel that tipping will not be a completely resolved issue.

On this trike, I don't think I can do much about it. Especially when it's loaded iwth cargo. If I were to spend the effort building the new square-tubing cargo frame and wheel supports I sketched in a previous post, it would likely help some, but not enough to make it worth the effort, when I could instead put that effort into a properly-designed tilting tadpole trike that would not really have these issues, and could be made to be however I want it to be.

Lengthening the rig can handle some stability at speeds, but as you noticed, it doesn't do much for tipping. It just opens up the space in which you can move the COG, but does not help tipping point COG. The front wheel geometry doesn't really help with tipping in a turn either (unless it is completely wrong in which case it can hurt). It is largely a matter of preference. I prefer the bigger offset. It allows the bike to continue forward without as much tendency for pull inducing occurances to create movement in the wheel/handlebars.

From what I could tell, it made tipping worse, because CB2 in the trike configuration was smaller 24" wheels, lower to the ground, my wieght much lower, battery weigth lower, etc., yet it was more prone to tipping than this one is, using the identical axle/kit.

If you are going with what you have trike kit setup wise (i.e. width, etc.), how about getting radical with it. See about some really, really small scooter hub wheels, think 12-14" which you can lace the motor into. Radical I know.

That's an interesting thought. I have some even more radically-small wheels, like 8" or something, 3" wide IIRC, from a little kids' scooter type thing, that could be fitted into the axle. I would have just about zero ground clearance for the axle, though, so I'd have to be careful about speed bumps in parking lots and such, ensuring I never cross one diagonally. :lol:


I have some 14" (I think) wheels from a powerchair, which I could even use the powerchair brushed motors that bolt directly to them, if I use a pedal chainline that goes to the front wheel instead (I dunno any good way to make a pedal drivetrain to these types of wheels taht would actually be useful and still simple/buildable with what I have--I thougth about this before). I could also use a wheelchair frame (which these are meant to bolt to) instead of this trike frame, which would be lighter (compensating a tad for the heavy motors and wheels). At this point, it's a completely different trike though, again. I even pondered doign basically this once before on my old electricle blog:
http://electricle.blogspot.com/2009/05/wheelchair-based-trike.html
http://electricle.blogspot.com/2009/05/wheelchair-trike-layout-ideas.html


But width-wise, I actually need to make it narrower by at least 3-4 inches, so I can take it inside my front door, and not ahve to leave it outside.

But if you don't mind pulling trailers, they could help with COG, hauling ability, seat placement possibilities, etc. But the one brake issue. Dude, sorry...I just don't know.

Brakes are easy. I just have to weld studs to the "stays" of the trike wheels, and isntall them, then find my dual-brake handle, meant for this purpose.

Trailers...I've dealt with my trailers ok on various bikes, but basically they are a PITA to laod and unload, espeicaly with big heavy cargo like I usually have (piles of bags of dogfood, or piles of usually-heavy scrap materials that I am saving from being trashed, are the two most common things). Loading the trailer so it will track right and not tip forward or backward too much and apply the wrong load to the tongue and hitch is difficult when I have to haul 200-300lbs or more of stuff like that. I don't have to do it every day, but at least every month or so, some opportunity comes up to need this option, but i have to do it right then--I can't go get the trailer and come back, hardly ever.

That means I have to haul the empty trailer around with me no matter what I'm doing, and it skitters around the road on turns, and bounces a lot on potholey roads, and in crosswinds threatens to flip. (none of which are an issue when it's loaded sufficiently and properly, but anythign I carry on it reduces what I could carry cargo-wise...and I don't feel like carrying a load of rocks or sandbags around with me all the time just so I have something I can dump in place of cargo).

it's also two more wheels to go flat.


So, I prefer to keep all the cargo capability actually part of the vehcile itself, and use the trailer only for things I can plan out ahead of time (which might be a few times a year, if that). Even though it complicates the actual vehicle in a number of ways. It's just far more convenient.



Maybe for now I'll just ride this one, found in the dumpster at work today (along with the big aluminum tube that used to be a "smoker's outpost" for dropping cigarettes into):


If I could weld aluminum (or bolt/clamp to it) maybe I could use this as a "downtube" on a bike or trike that could also hold a big battery:



Also gotten from work (the day before), something to make the dogs happy. Seems to be working:

(Fred and Loki each had their own smaller versions but didn't pose for pics).

 

[amberwolf]

Pain...unlike other nerves, where they quickly can be tuned out, it just does not go away. The short term effectiveness of treatment will always be there. In fact, if you give up on treatment before it loses effectiveness it may be better.

I try not to use any painkillers unless I simply can't handle the pain--I used to say I was allergic to pain, and I would want to take something for any little ache, but I rarely actually did, partly because of cost. Any penny I don't spend I will have for somethign I really need it for later. Last few years I have begun to hurt in places I didn't realize I had places for, ya know? But still, I resist painkillers whenever I can.

I took some Excedrin PM so I could get some sleep when my teeth were particularly bad last week, and I had to get up for work the next day. It sort of worked the first night, I could feel the incredible sleepiness crawl up over me about an hour after taking it, and I actually did sleep, even though the pain itself didn't really go away. Woke up a couple hours later and it was still kinda easy to go back to sleep once I'd tricked myself into not noticing the pain for a bit, and kinda went like that till I had to get up for work.

But the next night, I felt pretty sleepy but not nearly as much so, and started to doze off but woke quickly and with no sleepiness or abilty to get back to sleep again just from the EPM. The third night, I felt nothing at all. If it werent' for the toxic effects of too much acetominophen, I would probably have tried to take more of it, but it can take out your liver if you overdose it, and the recommended EPM dose is already at the max acetominophen dose you should have. I didn't have to work the next two days, so I didn't take any, or the next day, but Sat night I tried it and it did absolutely nothing. I might as well have taken air.

Tylenol3 with codeine is about the same way: I get a little relief from it, but not very much. I used to get nearly complete relief, years ago. Now, even after not taking any for a year or two, I still get basically nothing. The relief many people might get from aspirin for a severe headache? That's about how much I get out of this, or most anything. Even the oxycodone that ougth to just about knock me out, or the darvocet that did used to knock me out the couple of times I've taken it before...does almost nothing now.

Ibuprofen still helps some things simply because it also helps reduce swelling that can cause pain by pressure, but even that is pretty limited help.



I have this meditative-like process I can go thru for many pains, though it's terribly hard to do for tooth pain or any pain in my head or face, that I actually tried based on a fictional Vulcan technique from the novelization of Star Trek III, I think it was. But it works: I close my eyes, tune out the world around me, best if I'm laying down flat. I find the center of the worst pain, and imagine it as a hot glowing area. I imagine a forcefield around it, and I squeeze that down until it begins compressing the pain into a smaller and smaller point...this also unfortunately makes the pain more intense, but is in less and less space, so it doesnt' really hurt that much more, usually, depending on what pain it is (this is why it doesn't work well on teeth, though). When it is a tiny little white-hot star of pain I can barely keep from screaming from, I push it outside my body. I can feel its' heat on my skin, but no pain. If I still feel pain somewhere else, I can do the same thing with that, utnil it's gone, too.

But this only lasts a short while; as soon as my unconcious mind begins to wander, like when dreaming especially, it'll usually come back. But I can often get to sleep by doing this, for non-head-located pains. It also doesnt' work well for when I have to get up and move about and do things, becuase that often brings other pains up, and once they start I may lose control of the managed pains, and the first one I lose of those generally starts them all up again. THAT sucks, because it's a cascade of hurty that can drop me to my knees. So usually I'll let them fade back in slowly if I can, before I have to get up and do things, rather than be assaulted by them like that.


It doesn't work well for head pains of any kind for some reason; I think it has to do with my sense-of-self being centered there, or sometehing. I haen't really worked that out yet, though I've been doing this since about 1987 or so, I think.

I recommend exercise. I know...I know...I am not some exercise weirdo. I am not into the weight lifting, running, etc. leave that for everyone else. I have done that, but for me walking, and stretching, and whatever comes with the chores I have to do daily is the best exercise. Big fan of stretching. Stretch to where there is some tenderness and stop. Do this a few times each day and boom we have exercise for those in pain.

Stretching helps iwth somet hings, but it doesn't do anything for my joint pains, or head/teeth stuff, and those are my worst problems. Helps with my back and neck and some muscle pains pretty well, though. I've tried quite a few different types of stretching that people have shown me over the years, and some are a little better than others; the best is to slowly move every muscle I can control as I kinda twist around on the bed, but I ahve to do this with the dogs out of the room because they don't knwo what I'm doing and think I am trying to play or something. :lol: Nana or Hachi usually starts stepping on me and then any benefit I got from the stretching is cacnled by the new bruises.

No cardio in this, but you not sleeping, and the stress that this causes to accumulate means who cares about the cardio? Not yoga, unless you are into that, just a little more time each day stretching your body out. I have kids who are willing to stomp all over me, this helps a lot. They also demand to be flung around, so, I am getting more than my fair share. I knew a cat that gave excellent massages, and several dogs that were adept at flopping up against you to god effect, maybe not as effective as kids crawling around on you, kneeing you in the groin, etc. but every little bit helps.

The dogs snuggling up against/on me in bed is very comforting, but it doesnt' genrlally reduce the pain much; it just makes me happier in general that helps me ignore some of it.


I don't tink I get any kind of cardio exercise anymore--all the things I used to be able to do to get it hurt too much now; I have to do all those things so slow taht I don't think I get much real exercise out of them now, includign all the stocking of dog food and whatnot at work.

 

[amberwolf]

click for readable size

 

[ddk]

reading with interest.

My trike, MT, is setup for 20mph- I always need to say that first.
However, It corners at 20mph if I can get myself to do that, but by instinct I always slow to 10-15mph
Being contrary to the 'right' way of doing things, to get the trike this stable I increased the head angle/offset, and the length of the trike and of course, you know about the cargo areas.
When the roof is loaded I have to slow down only because I need to reinforce the rear roof frame with additional angle supports (project for this week, maybe)

All stability configurations were created by building/testing/modifying, which took several months and two complete trike builds.
I didn't disdain anyone's suggestions, instead I built and tested stuff and went in the direction which gave me greater stability results.

-bottom line-

-twitchy?
yep, like every delta trike I've ever ridden, but MT lacks the back/forth swaying the Sun (recumbent) trikes exhibit when pedaling.
MT2 is far less 'twitchy' than MT1, where with MT1's first and second head angle/offset setups I was scared to sneeze while traveling faster than 10mph.
Being tossed off a trike at 20mph is really hard on my old guy's body. esp. the healing part...

-can MT2 tip?
sure, at absolute extreme steering angles where a bike would also tip.
But like I said, I instinctively slow down before a turn. Being tossed off a trike at 20mph is really hard on my old guy's body. esp. the healing part...
- but- I have turned into greater than 90 degree* at full speed several times accidentally and a several times on purpose.
MT1, even in it's 'final' configuration, tipped under certain conditions
Tadpole configurations are better at turning stability (when using proper ackerman configurations) but have their own 'special' set of problems

Good luck on your build + I know all about trying to build something when lacking the strength (and spirit) to do so lol.

edit- DOH... 25 foot radius. note that MT2 has a minimum turn radius of 6 foot where it will tip above 10mph.
MT1 'had' a min turn radius of 5 foot.

 

[ddk]

did I say twitchy steering?
no... that's not right.
MT's steering is absolutely stable +/- 10 degrees, after which it becomes harder to hold, but it's never actually "twitchy"


Eventually my second trike project will get finished so I can get rid of the NV191 hub (which I absolutely hate) and send it to you.
But like you, I always have to have one reliable trike before I can work on the other one.
After I installed 3 1/2" cranks MT's NV191 became reliable to use -kind of- as it still changes gear ratios slightly and randomly on the go; just not to the extremes it did at first.
And I hate it's spongy feeling on the pedals

 

[amberwolf]

I screwed up CrazyBike2's hall wiring while changing a failing tire, so had to use Delta Tipper 1.0 for my work commute yesterday.
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=711224#p711224


It is easier to ride this time around, but it is still not much fun to ride on the streets. I kept to sidewalks and canal path wherever possible, and was probalby less than 10MPH mostof the time. It's actually kind of nice to ride it at those speeds, 5-10MPH, but not possible to ride on the streets with traffic like that. Bicycle paths are ok, and on some roads the bike lanes would be safe enough, like some of the side streets and half-mile roads.



In a lot of places in Phoenix, the major roads are spaced a mile apart, and half a mile between them the roads often have bike lanes, since most of those roads are less-trafficked by cars than the major roads. Usually they are about 8 streets apart, so for the north-south roads, Central Ave (0) is a major road, then 7th Ave, skip to 19th Ave, (cuz of the mountains I guess), then 27th Ave, then 35th Ave, 43rd, 51st, 59th, etc. On the east side it's 7th Street, etc. Those roads are usually 40MPH, some of them 45MPH, for most of their lengths. Then the crossing "mile roads" are like Glendale, Northern, Dunlap, Peoria, Cactus, etc. (these go east-west)


So the roads with bike lanes are between those, usually. (though some of those ahve bike lanes for certain stretches, too). 31st Ave and 23rd Ave are teh most common ones I use, north-south, and east-west I use Orangewood, Butler, Hatcher. But the bike-lane roads dont' all go all the way thru various areas, unlike the major-mile roads. For instance, they dont' cross the canals--so to do that one must detour to a major-mile road, or go on the canal paths themselves (which you can't get to except at the major-mile roads, in almost all places they cross the canal, with a few exceptions where there's a service entrance to the canal at a back street or alley. Might be a half dozen of those over the whole canal system, at most.


Another issue is that sidewalks in a lot of places are not even wide enough for the trike--some can't even fit a wheelchair, and some while wide enough have sign posts, utility poles, and bus stop benches in the middle of them, meaning you must go on the street to go around those on anything wider than a narrow bicycle or on foot. Large, wide people cant' even fit in some places, and have to step off into the street to go around such things. Fortunately they aren't in most places like that, but enough to make some paths inconvenient or unsafe to use. (sometimes you could go around them in people's yards rather than the street, but that's not very nice, and in some areas could result in unpleasant reactions).


Mmm...Loki doesnt' like the thunder outside so I got interrupted typing this up
for a while, calming him down. Now he's laying on top of me with his head under my arm, hidng from the noizy wurld out there. :lol: Wouldn't be so bad if he was lap-dog sized, but he's like 65lbs.

The rest of them are all sprawled around on the rest of the bed around me. Gonna be harder to get up to fix CB2's wheel than I expected, now that I am beginnign to feel awake and energetic enough to try doing it. I just wisht the weather hadnt' changed from yesterdays' nice warm weather to cold andrainy, cuz my hands and other joints and bones are all achy and hurty and stiff now. Gonna be even harder to work on it than usual.

Anyway, Ishould probably try to get up and go fix CB2 so I don't ahve to ride the trike again to work tomorrow.


Anyway, it means it is harder to get around on a trike like this, which can't safely be used in fast traffic areas as it isn't nimble enough to avoid sudden problems, and is too wide to even use on some sidewalks.

 

[amberwolf]

I have not been able to fix CB2 yet,
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=710382#p710382
and must be at work by 630am tomorrow (tuesday). After a long day of complete fail, it was already almost 8pm, and I really needed to just get something ready to ride, and the trike already is--it just doesnt' ahve enough range with the 10Ah 14s pack.

So I pulled CB2's 16s 20Ah pack, took two cells off to make it 14s 20Ah, and made a Y-harness out of more salvaged SB50 andersons from old server UPS battery connections, which usually still have a lot of wire on them, soemtimes up to 10g, and some of them with double wires. One was already meant to be a parallel connector, with two SB50s already wired red to red plus a red with ring terminal, and blacks separate but with ring terminals. I cut the quick-connects (for SLA) off another single SB50, and wrapped some of the wire around the ring connectors, crimped them together with pliers, then soldered with the 80W Weller.


This will let me hook both packs in parallel for the long trip out and back, instead of having to switch over at some point, if I don't have the opportunity to charge at work for some reason. (I should be able to, but I cant' guarantee it).


So the ammocan with the 10Ah is strapped on the bottom rack on the right with the lighting pack on top of it, as usual, and the 20Ah ammocan is above it on the main rack on the right, strapped onto it. Big box to hold two backpacks, one iwht lunch and stuff and the other with tools, air compressor (just in case), tools, cargo tiedowns, etc. Small box on lower rack to hold chargers, extension cord, power strip, etc.

I was going to move the lockable cargo pod off CB2's left side to the bottom of hte lower rack, mounted with the lid to the rear, but I just don't have time and I'm too worn out to think clearly enough to come up with an idea that will hold weight and not risk falling off while on a bumpy road. :lol:

 

[docnjoj]

The trike really looks quite clean and professional. It also looks a bit narrow for having the seat that high. Lightfoot trikes makes a bunch of high-end delta trikes that look like yours and their C/G is a good bit lower. Any way to lower the seat?
otherDoc

 

[amberwolf]

Only by chopping up the frame. It's in the plans, but I just aint' gots the time, since this trike "works" like this, and I need to leave it working til I have Crazybike2 working again.

I can actually go about 17-18MPH easy in a straight line on a flat smooth road with no traffic, and feel safe dooing it. Buuut. one little twich of the steering and I could end up a metal tumbleweed.


I did actually finally crash the trike today, though it wasn't serious, it was not a lot of fun. I had stopped by my normal workplace on the way home from the store I'm working at this week (and next), to see if some stuff was available to pick up, to find out if it would be worth the time to build the trailer attach point on the trike tonight (planned for a while, hadn't had the hour or two to get it done), or if I should just spend that time on fixing Crazybike2's motor problem.

Anyway, when I left, it was getting pretty rushhoury, with plenty of morons in a hurry to go nowhere. I pulled out on 28th Ave when there was a large gap in traffic on the northbound lanes, so I could get into the middle lane and wait for a dude in a big truck to pass, so I could get over to the righthand southbound lane. But then he started roaring his engine to go even faster than his already-exceeding-the-speed-limit-while-approaching-a-red-light-speed and honking, and changed to the center lane, coming straight at me, and there wasn't any way he was going to be able to stop even if he wanted to (whcih he obviously didnt'), and would've just crushed me like a little dog food can, smooshies and all.

So I gunned the throttle and kept going instead of braking, and was wishing for CrazyBike2's 3KW+ right then, for GTFOOTW power. I did get out of his path, but I was still headed diagonally for the far sidewalk as I can't turn at those speeds or I'll flip. I tried to brake and turn but I just hit the sidewalk curb at an even more awkward angle, ensuring I coudln't possibly climb it and instead tipped the trike at about 15MPH or more, dumping me rolling out onto the sidewalk with the trikealmost on top of me.

All that got hurt was some paint on the trike maybe :lol: and my pride, and a little nick in my right pants leg and shin from the righthand pedal on the boom (or maybe the chainring; cant' tell for sure). And my right kneecap must've hit the sidewalk, cuz a few hours later it's all achy and throbby, but no bruising or swelling. Got some new scrapes on the helmet, though, so it saved my noggin' from a floggin', I guess.


Nothing had spilled or even slightly dislodged from the tie-downs, so I guess I did that right.


After rigthing the trike (with none of the passing cars even slowing to check out the crash, and only one of the numerous pedestrians and people in the bank parking lot right there even looking my way, and quickly averting their gaze rather than coming over to help whiel I lay sprawled out as I gathered my wits from their scattered landing places, before getting up to check myself, and then the trike. Pretty typical reactions to someone getting hurt, falling, whatever), I rode on the sidewalk at about 10MPH for a little ways, then took to the road once I got to Metro Parkway, and thence to home.


I put the batteries on the chargers (lighting and traction), and let the dogs out for potty, then remembered I never did actually figure out how to mount the trailer hitch-mount-point on teh trike, except to bolt it to the cargo pod, which I didnt' really have a way to mount to the trike yet etiher.

So I glanced around, and saw one of the red 1" square tubes that's part of the frame of a sign, and had a thought. That thought worked out perfectly, first time, so it only took about 30 minutes to actually put the hitch point on the trike, after all. (most things I think will take 5 minutes take a month of sundays, so this was shocking!

It probably wont' last forever, but it's stiff enough to tow around 100lbs of dog crates on the trailer:





I just welded it to the stays behind the BB shell, and the top of the drive housing axle-join section. Then I drilled holes to match the ones in teh hanldebar piece i used for the clamp-bar on CB2, and insered the bar into the square tube, and bolted it on. Werks like chimp. ...er..Champ.




Oh, at the remodle store, they have a table that was for clearance stuff, and it is going away. It's not al lthat heavy, but it has a metal subframe and it's just the right size and shape for a big trailer. I am going to try to get it tomorrow, and bolt the present trailer's towhitch/frame and wheels on to it, and use it to tow stuff home in tomorrow afternoon as a test of it. Might be a disaster, but we'll see. (it might nto even be there; lots of stuff just gets trashed during the night, and scavenged by salvagers befoe I even get there).



Batteries are now recharging again for the trip back to work tomorrow morning. Trailer is attached and waiting, all stuff packed on trke to go.


I am so tired...but I can't sleep (or rather, cant' stay asleep). Not exhaustedyet, but gimme another day of this and I willb e).

 

[amberwolf]

So far every day when I'm done working I end up having other things to finish so I haven't been able to get back to CrazyBike2, and so have been riding Delta Tripper.

daybefore yesterday had to stop by my regular workplace and the dollar store for stuff, and yesterday took a n hour to get and tie down a table to the trailer so it couldnt' move or shift wven with bad bumps, then another half hour on the way home to tie somethign else down to it that i found on the way home. Also took almost twisce as long to actually get home cuz I coudln't go but jut st over half speed with the load. Today got hom quick but had to mow the lawn front and back cuz everythign is springing up with the hot and sunny weather we've ahd suddenly, after the rainy weather we just had. some stuff was a foot high oim n a couple tplaces. . Figuredd if i dnd't do something i'd get in trouble with the city or somethign. each time I would get done, sit down to eat and doze off, wake, doze, etc., kinda like normal but een more exhaustedly, so i never gt back up to get anthing done on CB2. havent' een been keeping up with ES much.


I've gotten much more confident in riding DT, and am now riding it at 20MPH on the straightaways that are good enough to not feel like a hurdy-gurdy ride from the uneven pavement ripples. Probably that's a total of up to a third of the ~12 mile trip each way.

But I can only do this if there is essentially zero chance of having to dodge something or hit even a little bump, or be zipped by too quickly by a close car, or whatever, cuz I'd probably flip over at that speed.

Can make it up to about 17.5MPH for mcuh of the rest, and some places it's down to 8-10MPH (sidewalks in a few places that I acan't do the street cuz of traffic or road conditions o r both). have to slow down often, then respeed up, when on the canal paths, cuz of the big power towers in the middle of the paths, which jog around the towers but i can't steer quckly in DT or it'll tip over. Plus osme places on the canal path have holes or cracks that woule break something. Tjere's one place just east of 29th Ave on the canal path that has the underpass, midle one i think it is, where a hole almost as wide and long as DT itself is, with broken pavement scattered in and around it, places up to at least half a foot deep! worst in the middle, but bad enough evenr around the edges i'd surely crash if i hit that. wanna get a pic of it but keep forgetting the camera.


One thing that gives me the confidence to g o faster is that with that trailer attached, the trike is noticeably more stable at faster speeds--above 15MPH it used to be twitchy and shaky, but with the trailer, even empty, it is not, at least up to 21MPH, the peak speed noted on the CA at some point (whcih I don't remember going, but obviously it happened at least for a moment somewhere).


I also hauled home what might become a new bigger trailer yesterday, but it's kinda heavy, so probably it will just be the inspiration for one, and I'll keep it as a folding table instead. (maybe make a vacuform bed out of it; I've got masonite and pegboard I coulduse for a top, and old clothes dryer heating coils.... another "someday" project)







It was necessary to keep it down to 10-12MPH most of the wya, because the table was so long that the trailer would bob back and forth on every little surface imperfection. Around 13-14MPH it would start to resonate and I could feel the trike itself jolting around from it, sometimes pulling the front wheel off ground a hair and losing steering control.
View attachment 3



Along the way back, on the canal path, I also found a lounge chair back with webbing intact, and am pondering it as a sunshade for midday runs. The rest of the chair was pretty twisted wreckage, so I left it behind as I already had the table on there, and I couldn't tie much stuff down to it very well.









Nothing to haul back today, but I kept the trailer on becuase of the stability at speed.


Also, there's a bike shop up there near the remodel store, I forget it's name but it's up at 60th Ave & Behrend in the same shopping center. Arizona bike depot or somethign. Anyway, I stopped in after work while wiating for my lighting pack to recharge some (I forgot to plug it in at lunch; I never have time to do it before starting work when I arrive; since I use almost 10Ah of thd 20Ah pack just one-way, it's fairly critical that I get some juice back into it before leaving! One unreasonable delay somewhere and I'd end up using over 10Ah more and the pack woudl be overdischarged (again). Trying not to do that to it. )

They have the Maxxis hookworm and ringworm in 20", but they want almost $40 each for them. They aslo want about $40 for their super thick tubes (they're actually thicker than my really good garden hose is! over 1/8" thick, more like 3/16" on the tread area). That's way more money than I can really afford...but I am considering it for the rear tire of CrazyBike2 after I fix the motor, cuz if I am riding long distance like this on it I would like something reliable.

(they also have other parts and whatnot I'd like to replace with new, like brake pads, but they watn similar money for each thing I am looking ot get--so it's unlikely I will actually end up getting anything there unless I'm desperate, like if somethign goes wrong on the way to work or while i'm there, as that's the only close place I know of with such things).



As an aside, I haave considered taking the "airless" tube out of Delta Tripper's front 20" wheel and putting it in CrazyBike2, but it is super-squishy, and is like riding maybe 25PSI or something--it would be awful on such a heavy bike, though it would mean I wouldn't hae to worry much een if the sidewall separated like this last time around, whcih is what forced me to change the tire and break the mtoor system in the first place, forcing me to ride Delta Tripper till I get it fixed.

BTW, I have been ponderingf it and i think maybe it's the cntroller . I dug out hte old 12FET from BikeFanatic and will try it along with the stator from the MXUS from Ohzee and see if I cna get taht to work, and thn put it in CB2s wheel to get going till I figure out what is wrong with the 9C / Methods combo.



I'm dozing and waking again now so i think i will see if i can stay asleep. gotta get up at 4am to be ther by 6am now. takes almost 1.5 hours to actually mak the trip cuz of waiting at lights and to cross roads, etc., though it doesnt' show in teh stats on the CA (whih c I keep forgettng to post, tehyre on a paper in my helmet in the other room I thinkd).

c u l8r gud nyt

 

[emiyata]

They have the Maxxis hookworm and ringworm in 20", but they want almost $40 each for them. They aslo want about $40 for their super thick tubes (they're actually thicker than my really good garden hose is! over 1/8" thick, more like 3/16" on the tread area). That's way more money than I can really afford...but I am considering it for the rear tire of CrazyBike2 after I fix the motor, cuz if I am riding long distance like this on it I would like something reliable.

If you are looking for bike parts you really need to tell me what is on your list. I went to a bike show and picked up a brand new KRAD 24" tire for $5 and a 26" specialized thorn tube for $5. they sold new 20" tires for around $5 but I don't think they are hookworms but I was not really looking at 20" stuff.

 

[amberwolf]

Oh, I was mostly checking out their prices because they were right there, and I have been interested in hookworms since reading of various e-racers here on ES using them for their grippiness (whcih I prefer to have on these roads over long wear life, if I have to choose).

I have 24" cheapo clones of the hookworm, and they grip pretty good, but wear fast. No 20", though and that's the size I've got on the back of CrazyBike2.

The thick tube I was looking at was just thicker than anything I have had experience with, and I think it would probably do pretty good without any kind of slime sealant in there, just from it's thickness--most of the stuff on the road is avoidable, but there's always bullhead thorns, and those will take out a thin tube even thru a thickish tire. But a thck tube and thick tire would be enough to prevent puncture from the majority of those.



I can sometimes find the cheap tires (used or new) for little money, $5 or less at Build A Bike in their used-parts area, or free on junk bikes people give away or toss out. I have one good pair of nice tires from Ohzee, the Specialized Armadillo type, I forget whcih version but it's in 26". It's nto very sticky rubber, though, despite it's toughness. (or because of it?).


As for what tires and tubes I'd be looking for, it'd be ones with "road slick" types, like the hookworm or rimgworm tread (not the pattern but the shape of the tire, it's profile). Stickier/softer rubber is better, thick sidewalls are much better. Sizes...20", 26", 24", mostly the fatter the better, I suppose. Tubes, same sizes, thickest walls I can find. Schrader valve.


Other bike parts...good sticky brake pads for V-brakes/linear-pull brakes. (Oatnet sent me some old stuff, but the ones I've tried seem pretty hard and don't brake well, if at all). Extra-long brake cables and housings. Probably other stuff I can't think of in my fuzzy-mindedness.

 

[emiyata]

Oh, I was mostly checking out their prices because they were right there, and I have been interested in hookworms since reading of various e-racers here on ES using them for their grippiness (whcih I prefer to have on these roads over long wear life, if I have to choose).

I have 24" cheapo clones of the hookworm, and they grip pretty good, but wear fast. No 20", though and that's the size I've got on the back of CrazyBike2.

The thick tube I was looking at was just thicker than anything I have had experience with, and I think it would probably do pretty good without any kind of slime sealant in there, just from it's thickness--most of the stuff on the road is avoidable, but there's always bullhead thorns, and those will take out a thin tube even thru a thickish tire. But a thck tube and thick tire would be enough to prevent puncture from the majority of those.



I can sometimes find the cheap tires (used or new) for little money, $5 or less at Build A Bike in their used-parts area, or free on junk bikes people give away or toss out. I have one good pair of nice tires from Ohzee, the Specialized Armadillo type, I forget whcih version but it's in 26". It's nto very sticky rubber, though, despite it's toughness. (or because of it?).


As for what tires and tubes I'd be looking for, it'd be ones with "road slick" types, like the hookworm or rimgworm tread (not the pattern but the shape of the tire, it's profile). Stickier/softer rubber is better, thick sidewalls are much better. Sizes...20", 26", 24", mostly the fatter the better, I suppose. Tubes, same sizes, thickest walls I can find. Schrader valve.


Other bike parts...good sticky brake pads for V-brakes/linear-pull brakes. (Oatnet sent me some old stuff, but the ones I've tried seem pretty hard and don't brake well, if at all). Extra-long brake cables and housings. Probably other stuff I can't think of in my fuzzy-mindedness.

If your looking for snow and cold weather ,I have plenty of it. :lol:

 

[amberwolf]

Give it a couple months, and I will be wishing for that! :lol:


Some performance data from the last few days of rides. I didn't document them all (though I meant to), mostly because I arrived late the first two days as it was, becuase of detours due to "construction" signs on the canal paths (though theyr'e not actually blocked, I couldn't see that at night), paths/roads that don't go thru the way they show on the satellite pics and maps, and some road/path surfaces that were impassable by this contraption for one reason or another, forcing me to go back and find ways around these things. Being late already, I didn't ahve time to write stuff down before starting the recharge processes. (to make sure I had enough power for lights and motor for the trip back).


Anyway, so first, the mileage on my final path the last 3 days was about 25.2 miles total each day, and I think it was around 28 miles or so the first day (Tuesday) and nearly that, 27.5 or so, the next day (cuz I forgot the exact path I took and had to find it again). Basically it's about 5 times as far as my usual workplace.

The last three days I also didn't recharge the traction pack at work--just hte ligthing pack. I also only used the lighting pack all the way to work; on the way back I turned off the primary lighting wheenver I was on the bike-only paths, and wasn't on a road with cars. I did have to use it on the way to work on those paths in order to see, because they are mostly unlit, and even the car headlight is barely sufficient for 20MPH on the straightest of those paths--not enough for the curvy/twisty paths or the ones going up or down a little (but I can't ride the trike that fast on those anyway, so it doesnt' matter).


Today, Saturday, was:
1h 57m 43s trip time
25.3 miles
21.8mph max (probbaly downhill in one of the straight under-passes on the canal path)
12.7mph avg (lots of complete stops and starts, lots of places I have to stay less than 10-15MPH for various reasons)

30.5Wh/mile
14.09Ah
764.6Wh
35.44Amax (I think this is from plugin of the controller, no precharge so it sparks pretty good!)

58.2Vstart
52.1Vrest
44Vmin (I think this is from powerdown of the system, caps in controller draining?)



Hmm...apparetnly I misremmebered Tuesaday (first day of work)--I did write it *some* of it down. I just found that paper amongst my loose notes about teh trips. :?

Trip to work
1h 47m 14s trip time
14.64miles
?mph max
?mph avg

29.5Wh/mile
7.81Ah
430.7Wh
30.62Amax

58.2Vstart
?Vrest
52.7Vmin



Trip back home:
1h 13m 31s trip time
14.88miles
?mph max
12.1mph avg

25.4Wh/mile
6.788Ah
378.63Wh
37.93Amax

58.2Vstart
?Vrest
53.4Vmin

That also includes a detour to my regular workplace on the way home, though (just prior to my first crash on the trike, which happened when I left there).


I also noted down Thursday's data:
1h 54m 36s trip time
25.35miles
21.7mph max
13.2mph avg

32Wh/mile
15.02Ah
809Wh
53.14Amax

58.2Vstart
52.4Vrest
51.1Vmin



Friday's ride home is all I have, not trip there.
59m 48s trip time
12.64miles
20.3mph max
12.6mph avg

31.3Wh/mile
7.43Ah
393.49Wh
85.41 Amax (GOTTA be from cap charging during controller connection)

?Vstart
52.5Vrest
48.7Vmin



One thing to note is that even when pretty well loaded down with that folding table, the little Fusin "1000w" geared hub will still go up a steep hill. I don't know the slope of any of the hills, or their length--I need to measure them on the way home when I am not in a hurry...most likely this will not happen until Thursday next week, when I won't have to be going back to work the next day and can spend more time doing such things.

But it is grinding (really t's probably the windings buzzing) all the wya, and really starts to bog down near the top of either of two hills climbing out of Thunderbird Paseo Park's bike path--one near Acoma, and one on the other side of Thunderbird, IIRC. Probably went down from 12MPH starting up down to 3-5MPH by the time Ir each the top and it starts to level out and goes more normal. It's at 950-1000W+ the whole time, so I imagine it'd melt that little motor on any such hill that was much longer than these are, and probably couldn't even make it up a steeper one.

If the hills were straight enough runs up to them with smooth enough roads, I coudl almost certanly use faster speed and momentum to get up them with MUCH less effort on the motor's part--but I can't, as they are curved bumpy crumbly paved paths leading up to them, then the hills themselves are not straight either--curve left or right and have bumps on them too--I'd tip over for sure on that trike. Maybe on the original Fusin Test bike I could make it like that--not on Delta Tripper. It'd be Delta Tipper for sure.



I have also been snagging more salvage parts each day, too--today I got another two racks the same as the one already on the top rear of Delta Tripper, though one of the two is several inches longer than the other, they're the same width and height. AFAICR I also have another of the wider ones already here, but i forget where it is.

A bunch of 1" square tubing, some other bits and pieces, including two 1" acrylic rods that are each perhaps 2-3 feet long.

Just like during our remodel, some of the dog food is on clearance--presently almost none of it is in stock, but I bought one medium sized bag for less than a tenth of retail. Hopefully more will show up before I am done working there (and before it goes off clearance), so I don't have to make a special trip for it.


I had some other thoughts but I ahve lost them in my unintended naps while typing this up over the last couple of hours. Now Im tired enough I think I ought to just let myself sleep, if I can.

 

[amberwolf]

Something around 180 miles on the trike now, I think it is. I'm pretty used to it now, and I can fairly reliably feel it's tipping limits, and have not actually crashed except for the time the car was going to run me down.

The front tire scrubs a lot, because of the thrust from only the right wheel. I have to hold the steering just a hair toward the right while using the motor, vs say, going downhill and coasting. When I let go of the throttle, the trike instantly starts to steer to the right a bit, though it isn't all that noticeable below about 15MPH or so, and is very much so at 19-20MPH (enough to be a bit spooky if I forget it's going to do that and I let off throttle suddenly).

(insert nap here )

So teh 20" front tire is wearing very quickly--the center is almost worn down past the tread, and it was new enough to have a little of that mold-flashing here and there when I started. (insert another nap here ) Since it is an airless tube, it's not helping matters by making the tire mushy and probably more squirrelly, etc., likely cuasing faster wear. That will also make it harder to change the tire when it does wear out, most likely.


The rear tires, 26" Specialized Armadillo something-or-other (from Ohzee) are doing just fine, but they're not scrubbing much, either, since only the motor wheel (right) is driven, since I still haven't fixed up the chainline / pedal drive on the left wheel, for pedal or middrive. (insert yet another nap here ) (and I probably will never do so, instead just building a newer, lower, longer version of the trike).


Trailer tires (20" I forget what kind) seem to be doing ok; I figure I have at least several hundred miles on those, and who knows what mileage they had before I got them.

(insert YA nap here)

Four more days of work at the remodel, then FINALLY two days off, coming Friday and Saturday. I'm gonna need that time, after all these really long days. (consider it a 12-hour workday, since it's taking me about that long to get to work, do the work, then get home, and it is not exactly a relaxing ride home--if I ride slow enough to be relaxing, it more than doubles the time to get home, and then I'm not relaxed cuz I'm so tired I am afraid I'll drive rigth off the road or path by dozing off). (insert YA nap here :lol Gotta get up now and see if I can do anything on CrazyBike2's motor problem, as I haven't had a chance in several days to actually poke at it.

 

[emiyata]

That is a long trip by bike you are taking. It would be great if they paid mileage.