BIG PROBLEM: Poor wire size and China products

[The Mighty Volt]

First I would like to say that there is good quality and bad quality coming out of all countries including the good old U.S.A. - depends on how much time you spend researching and want to pay - just do not complain if you want to be a cheap-skate. Also I would like to add that there are a lot of companies that are looking for short term and long term business = give them your feedback. Getting back to the topic: Get the controller as close to the hub as possible - below the handlebars where there is no flexing of the phase wires. If you need waterproof connectors near the hub - use MC4 - If you need a battery disconnect - put it behind the seat and use andersons. Run 6-8 gauge from the battery to the controller - and change the battery leads to 8 gauge if you run 40-50 amps. Phase wires are not DC wires so they use a different calculation. If the wires get hotter then the hub then you have problems! I have always used an infrared unit to ensure that the wires do not exceed 90c. For recommendations on flexible high heat wires - checkout NEC specs for tracking solar panels. All wires have specific markings - guage is just one of them.

Great post. It's like the old saying...."You Have To Be Smarter Than The Tool To Use it".. Great quality stuff can be rubbish if it is not used properly. Rubbish can become great quality if you do it up a little bit.

 

[John in CR]

Doc,

Sorry, but not all. My chinese hubmotors are designed for and come with 30 amp controllers. The phase wires are 10 gauge, so some Chinese factories actually do things right. Saying that about the Chinese would be like me saying all Canadians are like Bob & Doug McKenzie, when I know full well that only 99% are. :lol:

Sorry, I couldn't resist, and didn't know any French Canadian jokes.

John

 

[The Mighty Volt]

Doc,

Sorry, but not all. My chinese hubmotors are designed for and come with 30 amp controllers. The phase wires are 10 gauge, so some Chinese factories actually do things right. Saying that about the Chinese would be like me saying all Canadians are like Bob & Doug McKenzie, when I know full well that only 99% are. :lol:

Sorry, I couldn't resist, and didn't know any French Canadian jokes.

John

That is the joke! J/K Doc

I am with you.......an awful lot of Chinese gear has come an awful long way.

Its not yet perfect, some wiring is still terribly lightweight.

Some of the worst Chinese wiring I have seen has less to do with the gauge and more to do with it being cheap and inflexible, and very hard to work with.

 

[John in CR]

Doc,

Sorry, but not all. My chinese hubmotors are designed for and come with 30 amp controllers. The phase wires are 10 gauge, so some Chinese factories actually do things right. Saying that about the Chinese would be like me saying all Canadians are like Bob & Doug McKenzie, when I know full well that only 99% are. :lol:

Sorry, I couldn't resist, and didn't know any French Canadian jokes.

John

That is the joke! J/K Doc

I am with you.......an awful lot of Chinese gear has come an awful long way.

Its not yet perfect, some wiring is still terribly lightweight.

Some of the worst Chinese wiring I have seen has less to do with the gauge and more to do with it being cheap and inflexible, and very hard to work with.

I'm convinced that the Chinese are keeping the good stuff for themselves. Why shouldn't they when you look at the prices westerners are willing to pay for the junk ebike equipment they can't sell in China. Almost 100 million new 2 wheel EVs in China in the past 5 years. You can't tell me there's not some good stuff available. But when you can take a $50 crap motor and sell it for $200-300, why bother finding the great quality $75 motors to sell for the same? I had to go straight to the manufacturer for mine, and got lucky. The motors are only rated at 1200W and for emotos, so they were probably feeling the squeeze created by competition that had much higher power motors and were looking to stimulate exports.

BTW, to show you how deep my roots go to the french speaking part of Canada, I grew up in S. Louisiana and my grandfather didn't speak a word of english, only french.

John

 

[The Mighty Volt]

@John in CR, from now on, you are "Cajun John" in these parts!

I dont doubt what you say.

Thats why I am online every day trying to scour the net for the good Chinese stuff.

I have gotten pretty good at identifying and then avoiding the shit.

My belief is that companies like Bionx are peddling words like "green" and "legal" and "safe" and using those words as an excuse to ramp up prices.

 

[Chillboy]

In China consumers generally don't demand quality items. They want the latest greatest thing and then junk it for the next one.
This attitude is slowly changing as the middle class grows.
So if an American company contracts production in China to thier specs you will get higher quality from the same factory with different design.
It's not pennies when you are making a million of them. When the bad pr catches up with them they just change the name and make
a slight improvement. Often too what looks like 20 companies making competiting items, it's all the same factory.

 

[Lessss]

I sent a pic of that motor to Luyuan and this was their reply.

For the big current motor, we already use the high temperature wire, it can bear the high temperature but the performance is same.

Best regards!

 

[Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh]

I'm convinced that the Chinese are keeping the good stuff for themselves.

actually that's a fact.
my last boss was chinese & said so repeatedly.

the japanese too, or at least used to, with the global economic meltdown things may now have changed.
this was more than 15 years ago but in our car club i recall there was one particular member who was heavy into honda civics was always griping that they save the best for the home market.
going on about how there were higher performance standard packages & options available in japan that the dealers here or anywhere in n.america weren't permitted to even special order for him.
a large 100+ amp alternator seems to stand out in my memory that he was all hot n sweaty for.
he & a several other owners had the 'for export only' low amp alternator burn out, typically right around the end of the warranty period, a few b4 but usually after.

so i've heard enuf anecdotal testimony from a number of people that would be in a position to know china can & does produce quality product.
but it seems as if the quality stuf has to get channeled thru the black market & almost smuggled out of the country. :lol:

 

[rkosiorek]

sure you can get quality stuff made in china. but then it is usually made to a customer supplied spec. to maintain that spec the customer better be prepared to send over and maintain an on-site inspector. someone who will not be unduly influenced by the locals or local authorities. and that will drive up the cost considerably.

rick

 

[The Mighty Volt]

sure you can get quality stuff made in china. but then it is usually made to a customer supplied spec. to maintain that spec the customer better be prepared to send over and maintain an on-site inspector. someone who will not be unduly influenced by the locals or local authorities. and that will drive up the cost considerably.

rick

You know, the Duct-Tape Division {Volgood, Vtac, Cammy etc} are knocking out these 36v 20Ah lifepo4 packs for around $300-$350 a pop, right.

I cannot find ANY chinese wholesale/manufacturer that sells 18650 cells at a price low enough to make up such a battery.

So somebody, somewhere, is keeping quiet about their suppliers.

Yet, in the meantime, the same Duct-Tape Division is selling what they claim are genuine A123 18650 cells for as little as $12 for 10, and that includes P&P

Now, lets suppose they were not genuine A123......let's suppose they were just basic 18650 1.1Ah units of basic LifePo4.....thats still a ridiculously low price.

I think a trip to China, in person, with a wad of cash and a translator is the only way to the bottom of this.

 

[rkosiorek]

that is exactly what Brett White (solarbbq) tried to do a while ago. and twicehe ended up being robbed. the last time the guyhe wasusing as a local translator and manager locked him out of his own warehouse and stole the entire contents. when confronted the guy beat poor Bret up pretty bad. the local authorities basically stood by and allowed all of this to happen.

apparently you got to be careful even if you do try your approach. butthis is only a cautionary tale. Justin Le of ebikes.ca has made several trips there and returned safely home. but he has not always been happy with the delivered product. check his website for the woeful stories about the state of his LiFePO4 battery deliveries.

rick

 

[The Mighty Volt]

that is exactly what Brett White (solarbbq) tried to do a while ago. and twicehe ended up being robbed. the last time the guyhe wasusing as a local translator and manager locked him out of his own warehouse and stole the entire contents. when confronted the guy beat poor Bret up pretty bad. the local authorities basically stood by and allowed all of this to happen.

apparently you got to be careful even if you do try your approach. butthis is only a cautionary tale. Justin Le of ebikes.ca has made several trips there and returned safely home. but he has not always been happy with the delivered product. check his website for the woeful stories about the state of his LiFePO4 battery deliveries.

rick

Wow. That sucks. In fact that is quite grotesque.

You know, this might sound bad, but I don't mind a bit of E-Fraud. I accept it as part of the territory, the world we live in today.

But that kind of mugging is not acceptable. Physically assailing somebody is outrageous.

Of course, the local PD were probably in the pocket of the scum who did this.

:x

 

[amberwolf]

Two issues that are not uncommon with police and/or authorities:

--Foreigners are just that--foreign. So no reason to care about what happens to them--they'll go away.

--If no one is paying for protection, there is no reason to protect them (even if the protectors are already being paid via taxes or other methods). Offer something of value and you'll be protected, otherwise ignored. Someone else pays more to unprotect you, and you're screwed and don't even know it.

Those problems exist everywhere, but are more common in some places than others. Some cultures inhibit or exemplify one or the other more, just by the way they work.

 

[The Mighty Volt]

Two issues that are not uncommon with police and/or authorities:

--Foreigners are just that--foreign. So no reason to care about what happens to them--they'll go away.

--If no one is paying for protection, there is no reason to protect them (even if the protectors are already being paid via taxes or other methods). Offer something of value and you'll be protected, otherwise ignored. Someone else pays more to unprotect you, and you're screwed and don't even know it.

Those problems exist everywhere, but are more common in some places than others. Some cultures inhibit or exemplify one or the other more, just by the way they work.

That is all true- but when I am supporting local business with my hard earned £$$$...I expect representation, of some degree.

 

[John in CR]

I used the shotgun approach without going in person. I placed 3 test orders with different suppliers in the orient. I figured if one came thru that I came out ahead. I went 2 for 3, a pretty good batting average of .667, and those 2 are great relationships. Despite now having some level of trust now, I will stick to small orders going forward, because I've heard all the stories of changes occurring down the road. Somewhat increased shipping costs for reduced exposure seems prudent to me.

The thief in Malaysia will get hers someday, even though I should have known better since the pricing was borderline too good to be true.

John

 

[John in CR]

BTW, I believed the Chinese employee's version of the story over Brett White's. A thief on that end certainly wouldn't have come on the sphere to post a defense, and BW already had a steady history of taking customer money and not delivering product. Storing inventory and shipping from China without being there in person was just plain stupid to begin with. Then having a long distance pay dispute amounting to a couple of hundred dollars is even more stupid.

 

[mdd0127]

It is good to see everyone perceived same thing as me here the same ?&/*$*/%( problem!

I was also a car audio anthousiast few years ago and I always oversized the wires i needed.. and that's why I had many 1st position on car audio competition with only two 10" woooferthat beated many 4x 15" woofer kit.. by scoring up to 157.2dB with 6500W amp and 000 gauge wires for 500A and 4 gauge wire for the woofer

Oh I forgot to mention the POOR electrical contact of the trailers plug of the crystalyte controller.. lol.. the 18 fets 48A come with these plug for the battery input!!!

Watta poor electrical contact!!!

People used to laugh at me for pulling brand new Soundstream Amps apart and soldering 0/1 gauge right to the board.....that is until that "100 watt" amp pushed a Cerwin Vega 12" to 159.5dB.

The biggest one I did had 6 old school sheet metal housed linear power 1600 watt@4 ohm monoblocks running to a Cerwin Vega Stroker 15" at 1 ohm. We were having trouble with the sound vibrating 000 copper lugs off so I built some 1" square aluminum buss bars to connect all of the batteries. Our meter maxed at 170dB and that truck could max it. It competition, it pulled 174.8 but everyone freaked out and a bunch of the other contestants started screaming and yelling back and forth with the judges. It was a zoo. We got DQ'd for something so stupid, I can't even remember what it was. This was in 1996 or so and I haven't been in the industry for a long time so those number may sound weak, but in the day, they were BIG numbers.

Insufficient wiring has ALWAYS been a problem with manufacturing. I think it's the bean counters' fault. Maybe upgrading from 14 to 10 gauge on a motor would only cost a few cents.... a few cents times a few million motors starts to add up. I think they reason that the smaller size wires will be fine for a very large percentage of their users. It's a little sad. If people would just stop buying stuff that's poorly designed/disposable, people would stop making garbage to sell.

 

[The Mighty Volt]

More Poor Wiring:

When I had a 48v 20Ah Cammy_CC Duct-Tape pack, the charger for that unit put out a whopping 60v that used to melt the rubber charging plug. This happened because of the really skinny wires going from the BMS to the charging plug. The heat simply backed up through the wires and melted the plug.

 

[The Mighty Volt]

I used the shotgun approach without going in person. I placed 3 test orders with different suppliers in the orient. I figured if one came thru that I came out ahead. I went 2 for 3, a pretty good batting average of .667, and those 2 are great relationships. Despite now having some level of trust now, I will stick to small orders going forward, because I've heard all the stories of changes occurring down the road. Somewhat increased shipping costs for reduced exposure seems prudent to me.

The thief in Malaysia will get hers someday, even though I should have known better since the pricing was borderline too good to be true.

John

I hit paydirt first time out. I study communication, look for tone, little things like that.

 

[John in CR]

I used the shotgun approach without going in person. I placed 3 test orders with different suppliers in the orient. I figured if one came thru that I came out ahead. I went 2 for 3, a pretty good batting average of .667, and those 2 are great relationships. Despite now having some level of trust now, I will stick to small orders going forward, because I've heard all the stories of changes occurring down the road. Somewhat increased shipping costs for reduced exposure seems prudent to me.

The thief in Malaysia will get hers someday, even though I should have known better since the pricing was borderline too good to be true.

John

I hit paydirt first time out. I study communication, look for tone, little things like that.

Now that I think about it, I went 3 for 4, since I was one of the very early Ping customers. The one out was my fault. I identified but ignored warning signs, and I got too eager mostly because it included a couple of X5's at a really good price, along with Cyclone type rigs, and some smaller hub motors. I wanted to test X5's bad at the time.

 

[The Mighty Volt]

A seller in China who sold me some LifePo4 recently contacted me to see how everything was going, and to see was I happy with everything. This is what we need more of.

 

[icecube57]

I sold my bosh packs to two members on the forum. One was near stock that I really dont have to worry about but one was home brew with solder joints and stuff. I went over the pack and checked all my solder points and put neoprene foam around the pack re-wrapped it with a fresh coat of Gorilla Tape. I also did 3 discharge tests and informed him of capacity before shipping out. He confirmed my results and is very happy with the pack. I now wish I had them back. I occasionally check on him to make sure everything is alright and if there is a problem I will repair it.

I need to check up on him now.

 

[John in CR]

Ice, I didn't realize that you are Chinese. What wire size did you use on those packs?

 

[REdiculous]

I think a big part of the problem is the importers. If they demanded larger gauge wires then the manufacturers would use it or lose the customer.

I still think it's insane that guys put 3000w into motors rated for 500w.

 

[TMaster]

I still think it's insane that guys put 3000w into motors rated for 500w.

I agree, time to re-wind these motors with larger gauge!!!