C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

I suppose the outer ring of contacts is for the brake light.
The purpose is when the switch is in off position it will lead from the red to the question marks, and then to the rear right and left lamp. If the switch is to the right it will only lead brake light to the rear left lamp. And the other way around.

The inner ring is for the for the flasher, and should then lead from the black to the left or right lamps if the switch is to the left or right. The black cant be ground in that case, it have to be output from the flasher relay.
 
j bjork said:
I suppose the outer ring of contacts is for the brake light.
The purpose is when the switch is in off position it will lead from the red to the question marks, and then to the rear right and left lamp. If the switch is to the right it will only lead brake light to the rear left lamp. And the other way around.

The inner ring is for the for the flasher, and should then lead from the black to the left or right lamps if the switch is to the left or right. The black cant be ground in that case, it have to be output from the flasher relay.
Click to expand...

Well said and understood. The question still remains, what is the electrical pathway that keeps the flasher working while in the 'off' position?

The black wire is tied into the 4-way contacts when the sliding contacts are moved.
And shouldn't come into play until the 4-way pull handle is pulled out. I think?

DSCN5328-1.jpg

And nothing happens until that handle (with light & blue wire) makes contact with (any) metal surface.
In this picture, the switch handle is in the OFF position, yet the flasher and light keep working.

The reason is they are still making contact at the identified center point on the switch handle.

So that is where I am. I don't understand why the switch is designed that way or is it another electrical type issue.

DSCN5326 - details.png
 
To me it looks like all the power for the flashing lights goes trough the black wire, both for the emergency switch and turning left/right.
The blue wire, does it go to an indicator light?
And when you isolate the surfaces where that indicator light gets ground, the problem goes away?

What lights are flashing when they are not supposed to, only the indicator?
It seems like your flasher relay dont like to be connected that way in that case.

Is it possible to not have the indicator light connected to ground?
In that case you could connect one wire from the indicator light to one front light, and another wire from the indicator light to the other front light. The indicator light has to be a lot weaker than the front lights for that to work. Like 3-5w if the front lights are 21w.

Edit, I saw that you wrote that nothing works if you disconnect the blue wire. That just dosent make much sense. Can you find a wiring diagram for the flasher relay you are using? Some in or output to the relay must be mixed up.
 
j bjork said:
To me it looks like all the power for the flashing lights goes trough the black wire, both for the emergency switch and turning left/right. If you look closely, the black wire and contacts are separate from the turn signal contacts.

The blue wire, does it go to an indicator light? It goes between (P) on the flasher to the light that is visible in the above photo.

And when you isolate the surfaces where that indicator light gets ground, the problem goes away? Yes as stated in the previous photo.

What lights are flashing when they are not supposed to, only the indicator? Yes, just the indicator lights and the flasher.
It seems like your flasher relay dont like to be connected that way in that case. It matters not, which connection, (P) or (L) the same condition happens.

Is it possible to not have the indicator light connected to ground? NO! It is the only power connection that make the switch/flasher/lights operate. Another person had a similar problem and he disconnected the blue indicator light wire and the problem went away. That hasn't worked to correct my problem.

In that case you could connect one wire from the indicator light to one front light, and another wire from the indicator light to the other front light. The indicator light has to be a lot weaker than the front lights for that to work. Like 3-5w if the front lights are 21w.

Edit, I saw that you wrote that nothing works if you disconnect the blue wire. That just dosent make much sense. Can you find a wiring diagram for the flasher relay you are using? Some in or output to the relay must be mixed up. I've tried to find one with no success. I bought a second flasher (same kind) and it operates the same.
Click to expand...

I can remove the switch handle completely from the switch, connect, the red PWR wire to the flasher (X) and just the blue wire to either (P) or (L) touch the frame with the isolated handle and the flasher and indicator light (on the handle) will function.
 
I spent some time looking at the diagrams and pics. I need to look at it a bit more, but a few things I figured out.
The black wire is NOT a ground. It's what I would call the flashing hot. This is the main power feed for everything else. It comes off the "L" terminal on the flasher (load). With the lever in the home position, there should be no connection from the black wire to any of the lamps. The red wire is just for the brake lights and feeds the rear lamps through the outer set of contacts. With the lever in the home position, the red wire should connect to both rear lamps.

Double check the connections on the flasher unit. Make sure the "L" connection is going to the black wire. The "P" terminal is for the pilot. Just for fun, you might try swapping the L and P terminal wires. A typical flasher setup is shown below:

Signal diagram 5.jpg
 
In looking at it again, I suggest hooking up everything like you had it to start with, but swap the blue and black wires on the flasher.
You should also get the brake lights to come on if you connect the red wire to 12v.
 
fechter said:
In looking at it again, I suggest hooking up everything like you had it to start with, but swap the blue and black wires on the flasher.
You should also get the brake lights to come on if you connect the red wire to 12v.
Click to expand...

I have done that a dozen times. I get the same result every time.

I found this: https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/help-old-style-chrome-clamp-on-turn-signal.444587/.

It appears that I'm not losing my brain cells. Finally, I have found what I believe is proof that the problem is as I have suspected all along, it's just a cheap design. That others have/are finding the same issue.

I'm rethinking the use of toggles.
 
Even though it's a cheap design, it should be possible to make it work.

What happens if you swap the blue and black wires?
 
fechter said:
Even though it's a cheap design, it should be possible to make it work.

What happens if you swap the blue and black wires?
Click to expand...

I get the same result every time.
 
fechter said:
And the same thing happens if you swap the blue and black wires?
Click to expand...

I've just woke up from my power nap and realized my previous answer wasn't quite accurate.
I haven't had the wires to the lights hooked up since shortly 'after' this problem started.

Specifically, I had the front turn lights hooked up and during that time I discovered the problem with the flasher/pilot light not turning off. Since then I found no need to reconnect any lights until this problem is solved.
 
Just_Ed said:
fechter said:
And the same thing happens if you swap the blue and black wires?
Click to expand...

Answer yes.

I've just woke up from my power nap and realized my previous answer wasn't quite accurate.
I haven't had the wires to the lights hooked up since shortly 'after' this problem started.

Specifically, I had the front turn lights hooked up and during that time I discovered the problem with the flasher/pilot light not turning off. Since then I found no need to reconnect any lights until this problem is solved.
Click to expand...
 
Just_Ed said:
fechter said:
And the same thing happens if you swap the blue and black wires?
Click to expand...

Answer yes.

I've just woke up from my power nap and realized my previous answer wasn't quite accurate.
I haven't had the wires to the lights hooked up since shortly 'after' this problem started.

Specifically, I had the front turn lights hooked up and during that time I discovered the problem with the flasher/pilot light not turning off. Since then I found no need to reconnect any lights until this problem is solved.
Click to expand...
 
fechter said:
And the same thing happens if you swap the blue and black wires?
Click to expand...

Answer yes.

I've just woke up from my power nap and realized my previous answer wasn't quite accurate.
I haven't had the wires to the lights hooked up since shortly 'after' this problem started.

Specifically, I had the front turn lights hooked up and during that time I discovered the problem with the flasher/pilot light not turning off. Since then I found no need to reconnect any lights until this problem is solved.
 
If the pilot blinks when connected to either the P or L terminal, it might indicate a bad flasher unit. In your picture, it looked like maybe the blue wire was on the wrong terminal. Not connecting the black wire to the flasher, the pilot should not blink on one terminal and blink on the other one. Keep it on the one that doesn't blink if that happens, and put the black wire to the other terminal. The X terminal always goes to the 12v supply.
 
fechter said:
If the pilot blinks when connected to either the P or L terminal, it might indicate a bad flasher unit. In your picture, it looked like maybe the blue wire was on the wrong terminal. Not connecting the black wire to the flasher, the pilot should not blink on one terminal and blink on the other one. Keep it on the one that doesn't blink if that happens, and put the black wire to the other terminal. The X terminal always goes to the 12v supply.
Click to expand...

I wish what you say would work, but it doesn't. That's another reason why the confusion.
I have two, identical flashers, and the result is the same, regardless of which one I use.

I've put the blue/pilot light wire on both P and L and I get the same result.

With the red wire 12v connected to the X and the blue wire to either P or L and then touch (ground)
the switch handle, and/or the case to the frame the flasher starts, and the pilot light blinks.

I'm just about to the point that this isn't going to end well. And should move on to better options.
 
If you leave the blue wire off, the rest of the stuff should work, just no pilot. There is a way to make the pilot work using some diodes and not use the terminal on the flasher.
 
fechter said:
If you leave the blue wire off, the rest of the stuff should work, just no pilot. There is a way to make the pilot work using some diodes and not use the terminal on the flasher.
Click to expand...

But that is not what is happening. Leaving the blue wire off means that 'nothing' works. I tried using a new wire directly from the 'L' to the ground and it created a direct short and blew another fuse. I suppose because there was no 'load' other than the flasher.

As far as having pilot lights, I don't need them. So no brain cells are used trying to make that part work for me.

FYI - I did have all lights hooked up at one point, thinking it may have a bearing on how it works. It made no difference. The system worked like one would expect it to..EXCEPT..it wouldn't stop working when in the off position.
 
The flasher needs the lamps hooked up to work. A connection from L to ground would be a dead short, so no surprise it blew the fuse.
I would hook up at least one pair of lamps for testing. In the home position, nothing should be blinking. If any lamps are blinking, the switch is making a contact somewhere that it shouldn't. This could be tested with a voltmeter.
 
fechter said:
The flasher needs the lamps hooked up to work. A connection from L to ground would be a dead short, so no surprise it blew the fuse.
I would hook up at least one pair of lamps for testing. In the home position, nothing should be blinking. If any lamps are blinking, the switch is making a contact somewhere that it shouldn't. This could be tested with a voltmeter.
Click to expand...

I have done the hook-up you suggest and found no change.
I have determined already that the point of contact is as shown in the attachment.
However, as in the previous experiment, when I isolated that point, there was no contact until I put the switch back together and it started flashing again.


DSCN5326 - details.png
 
The black wire is not a ground. It's flashing 12v coming off the flasher.

Then it seems like something inside is making contact when the switch is assembled that is not making contact when it's apart.
So if you remove the 4-way flasher contact, does it work except for no 4-way?
 
Just_Ed said:
I tried using a new wire directly from the 'L' to the ground and it created a direct short and blew another fuse. I suppose because there was no 'load' other than the flasher.
Click to expand...

The *only* ground in the stuff connected to the switch and flasher should be the actual lights/blinkers themselves. Any other ground is just a diversion of current away from where it is supposed to go.

If the switch housing itself, when grounded, causes something to happen that shouldn't, and that doesn't happen when it isn't grounded, you'll have to mount it in a way that isolates it from ground.
 
Overactive flasher problem solved – sorta!

A friend of mine figured out that the circuit wasn't getting enough resistance.
I hope I can explain this for all (well almost all) to understand.

He added an incandescent bulb (his mock-up demo) to each of the turn signal directions (one left, one right).
That caused the lights to still blink and the flasher to work, but stop while in the off position. (BLUE 'pilot wire disconnected)
The big change comes when the (blue pilot light wire) is removed. All lights still work as designed, left, right and hazard, (except in the center position) (No bulb connected).

trn sig diagram with switch lights.png



I ordered two new LED rear lights and two resistors. I added one resistor to each ( turn) wire going to the two rear lights. All is now working as anticipated.

I spliced the BLUE pilot wire to the (yellow and green) front signal wires. That made the indicator lights on the switch function only when they are in the (right or left mode)
 
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