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JohnnyReb

10 mW
Joined
Aug 25, 2023
Messages
28
Location
NorCal
Hello.
Did some searching of this forum and many other places. Was hoping someone here (looks like fechter is the authority round here) may be able to point me in the right direction.

Im looking for a simple controller schematic or possibly entice someone to build a simple controller for a 48v 1000w brushless motor with a 48v (i thnk 30Ah) batt. Simple power in, throttle circuit, 3 wires to motor, and a circuit for the ignition switch. That's it. Made tough.

My original controller died and i couldnt wait to remove all the lcd screen PAS selector features nonsense, so i did. There are Hall wires coming from the motor, but i dnt need any "feature" that has to do with it. Dont need to know speed, pedal assist, nothin'. Just smooth throttle response and as much power as this motor can take.
As far as the lights/horn i figure i could just get a simple 48v to 12v stepdown box.

Can anyone help me?
 
There's no really simple circuit for a three-phase motor controller. The simplest practical one you'll find is in a thread by Jeremy Harris using a no-longer-made motorola chip (MC3303X series).

There are plenty of opensource controllers that have complete schematics and code and board layouts, like the VESCproject (website of the same name), Openinverter, etc. But they are not "simple", and you'll probably spend a fair bit of money replacing parts as they blow up while doing initial testing and setup. :(

If you want a simple controller, there are many of them for sale for MUCH cheaper than you can build one for, and far easier to get working. if that's what you're after, I can split these posts off to a new thread for that purpose.
 
Yes thank you. I appreciate that greatly. Would be awesome to just purchase premade what im looking for or close to it.
 
Ok, I moved it over with a basic title; you can edit the first post's title to change the thread title.


Now to define a few things about your system to be sure you get the right recommendations:

Summary of what it sounds like you are after; anything that's incorrect please note it for us:

48v 20A controller (1000w to match the motor and what your battery can probably handle) with throttle input.

Sensorless (no halls) for simple motor wiring (this may make for rough startups from a stop on simple cheap controllers)

No display connector or option. (if it has the option, it may not provide full power, etc., without the display for you to choose settings in it).

No PAS input. (if it has one, it may require the sensor and you to be pedalling for it to operate, with no display to choose a throttle-only assist level).

"Tough" controller...what specifically do you mean? Some controllers are potted against water intrusion and vibration problems. If you need some other kind of toughness, you'll need to define that as precisely as possible.



Any of them are probably going to come with ebrake wires but you can cut them off or tape them up if you aren't using that function. Note that you probably won't get plug and play with the other cables you still need; you're likely to have ot figure out which wires go where in each cable, as it can be difficult to find matching-connector setups that also have matching wiring.



Depending on your usage and the actual motor you have, and if your battery can handle it (any specs you can post for it may help us figure that out; pics of the labels might help), you mgiht be able to use a controller up to 40A, for doulbe the power for short bursts (for instance, one of the motors on the SB Cruiser trike is only a "500w" motor but I put 2000w into it for a few seconds starting up from a stop...dropping back to the rated power for cruising at 20mph, so it gets hot, but not overheated). Your motor and/or battery might not handle that much for sustained runs, hillclimbs, etc., though.


Some questions:

What happened that caused the controller failure; and what were the symptoms it had? (may help ensure it's *just* a controller problem so you can get all the stuff you need at once if possible).

What job do you need the bike to do for you, under what conditions? Did it already do the work needed with the original controller? (and what controller did it have before; a pic of it's label may give useful info to make sure you have what's needed to run a new one).

There are several ways for a controller to drive the motor, some (like FOC) more complex than others to setup, and more expensive, but simple in actual operation, and can be more efficient. The most common cheap way is trapezoidal (trap) / square wave; it's anywhere from a bit noisy to very noisy depending on the motor it's driving and the load on it. The next most common sometimes a bit more expensive is sinewave, but is nearly silent. Some sinewave controllers only do that in sensored mode, and in sensorless they fallback to trap drive.

If you just want the system to connect up and go, those two are better options than FOC; the only thing you have to do with them (assuming you use the hall sensors for better startup from a stop) is to figure out the right phase/hall wiring combo, or run the autolearn function the controller has (if it has one).

Throttle response varies between different simple cheap controllers, but they'll all be controlling the speed of the motor via the throttle, rather than it's torque.

FOC is also sinewave, but doesn't use a simple "force the motor to go" type of drive like the cheap sine / trap controllers--it has to know all about the motor's characteristics to drive it correctly, and can take some serious patience and time to tune it to work with your system under your conditions, using a computer (or phone) based program via a cable to the controller for setup (but nothing connected while actually riding). Since FOC directly controls the current in the motor, controlling it's torque via the throttle, it's the smoothest control type. (note that not every FOC controller actually implements this, but almost all do--there is one series of Kelly FOC controller that does not, which doesn't make sense but that's Kelly for you).
 
Wow. Thank you soo much for taking the time to explain this to me and work with me to find the best solution. I have much gratitude.

You are correct:
--I will not be using a display or mode selection.
--Already having the circuit for break lights is probably best actually.
--No PAS
--"Tough" meaning waterproof/resistant, and can handle getting off roaded while firmly affixed to/in the protective box under my seat.
--I was under the impression that Hall wires were to make PAS and the speedometer on the lcd display work. The cable comming from the motor is fine and i can see the pin connector. So if i am to use them so the motor can run smoother, than ok. I have no problem with that. I just thought it had to do with PAS.

What started happening is that the bike was changing modes and shutting off at random. I tried troubleshooting whether it was just the selection switch on the handlebars or the controller. While i was troubleshooting it, it took off out my trailer door at full speed. I forgot how i came to the conclusion, but i decided it was the controller.

My desired use of the bike is like an electric motorcycle. I rarely ever use the pedals unless I am assisting the motor in climbing a hill or taking off faster to avoid obstructing traffic.
I really like this bike, i was just super unhappy with having to select through 5 modes and hold the selector switch just to have access to a full powered throttle. Ive never used it any other way. If i need to go very slow, i use less throttle. Like on a motorcycle.

I just returned the other controller i bought as a replacement that aint gonna work. Got my 40bux credit on amazon.

I unfortunatly do not have the ability to build a controller any longer. So if you could point me in the correct direction to purchase one that will work as close to my desired needs as possible...again, i have rememdous gratitude. This bike is my only transportation and im kinda dead in the water.
 
Its nice to have backups, that comes to controllers to but what I find tremendously helpful when the bicycle is your only transportation is to have a bin of spare parts, like wheels, cranks, seats and so on. When you feel the need to tinkle a bit, probe-wise then having a spare digital multimeter goes a long ways, and dont forget fresh 9v batteries and spare fuses. Spare inner tubes, spare patch kit, spare rubber cement tube, spare this spare that and like I said having a spare controller will save you time, if your main transport is of the 2-wheel variety.
 
I forgot to post pics of the controller and battery. My apologies.
 

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I have had good luck with a geared hub motor using a KT S09P-BL sensorless controller. I use throttle and no PAS. Some setup in the mobile app required but after that nothing, just drive. 3 motor wires, 2 battery wires and a throttle.
 
I forgot to post pics of the controller and battery. My apologies.
You need sine wave if you want quiet, you need a sensored (halls) if you want smooth from startup. You may want to consider having a built in upgrade path, for when you decide you want more power or replace your battery and run a higher voltage, so something that's flexible.

Both of these are sine wave, sensored, and can accept voltages from 48V to 72V. They have a higher current rating than your stock controller, but they also support a 3 speed switch, so you could use that to limit power, and still have the higher settings to use for shorter period when needed (even though you don't want extra peripherals, you could always just leave it on low, like I do for most riding), since your battery, although rated for 25A, looks like it could provide more, even though it's likely made with generic Chinese cells. Without a switch, medium/2 is the default. They have other functions that you may not need/want (cruise is nice if you are riding throttle only, but you need brake cutoff switches to disengage cruise, so more wiring that you don't want).



The downside is documentation can be pretty slim for these cheap controllers.
 
Electric_nz: I searched for the controller and found it on ali-express, and made for 500w not 1000w. Darn, you made it sound so enticing haha.

E-HP: Sweet, thank you for the links! Them are in my price range as well.

All of yall are real awesome. Thank you all for your help.
 
You need sine wave if you...
E-HP: I recieved this controller the other day from amazon.


Wow, it's in chinese like in the picture. So, is there any way i can convince you help me figure out what wires are which and how to sellect the mode? I have basic wiring skills, just dont read chinese.
 
E-HP: I recieved this controller the other day from amazon.


Wow, it's in chinese like in the picture. So, is there any way i can convince you help me figure out what wires are which and how to sellect the mode? I have basic wiring skills, just dont read chinese.
I don't read Chinese, but Google does. I used Google translate and took a picture of the picture of your controller label. The picture was grainy and rotated, but it sort of worked (read 48V as 46V). You can install the app and use your camera to translate the labels on the controller and connectors and go from there. I used the chinese (traditional) to english setting. Still translates to Chinglish, but a lot of ES members are able to translate Chinglish to English.

translate.jpg
 
It's at least as reliable as whoever did the original text printed on the label, that probably doesn't know any technical terms (this is the root problem of most of the translation issues, that the original terms used in Chinese are not always correct, probably wrong more often than not, so then the translation cannot be accurate either as it can only translate what's actually there, not what was intended).
 
You are correct. My attempt to use a translator-by-pic app rendered translations like "Hi Profit" or "Neighborhood," which is of course of no use to me. Balls! So im attempting to reach the manufacturer for a schematic or explanation of what goes where.

I have tues and wed off this week. Cant wait to start getting this bike back together.
 
The phase wires to the motor connect under the plastic cover with the 3 openings. The same for the battery input on the other side. The 5 wire connector right next to the phases is the hall connector that also goes to the motor. The other small connector is likely stuff you don't need, like alarm/anti-theft, etc. that they seem to use red connectors for most of the time. The connector with 3 wires could possibly be for the 3-speed switch, but I'm guessing that's in the middle bundle.
Take a clear picture or two of the middle bundle and connectors. Seeing which are 3 wire vs 2 vs 1 can allow for some educated guesses. There should be a single red wire, or sometimes two wires used to turn the controller on. There should be a connector for cruise control, which means there will be 2-wire connectors to brake cutoffs, and another two wire for reverse, plus the 3-speed switch.
 
Oh right on. I see where we are going here. Y'all are world class in this forum.

I bent the attachment tabs down under from the sides so the unit fits snuggly in the control box under mine seat.

I gotcha on the 3 phase and power attachments on the sides, under the little covers.
The little bundle next to the 3 phase attachment is totally for the hall wires.
In the pic, there is a slightly larger diameter red wire that im guessing is the unit power on, like you were stating.
 

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Gray Black Yellow is the three speed switch according to the translator. Red Green Black is turn the handle, Chinglish for throttle. Black and Blue is reverse. I can't see if the connector for the white wire on the left side has two wires on just one. If two, and the other is black, I see that a lot for brake cutoffs. You only need those if you're using cruise control. Are there any other labels on the harness on the left?
 
Chinglish? Lol
More detailed pics of the single wires from center bundle, multiple wire connectors from center bundle, and pics of the bundle on the left (close to the power hookup).
 

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Why is there only one wire (red) that turns the unit on? I of course have two wires comming from keyed ignition. Im thinking one ignition wire goes to that red wire and the other goes to the batt?
 
Correct in most cases. Without specific instructions from the controller manufacturer, you'd have to guess, but it is the most common wiring method.
 
Got the throttle, ignition, 3-phase, and power wired up. Turned ignition on and turned throttle handle to see if it would do anything....nope.

The only other wires i have to connect are lights/horn.

So do i need to connect a couple of them 3-speed switch wires together to give me full power? Which setting is full power and how do i wire it?
 

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Chinglish? Lol
More detailed pics of the single wires from center bundle, multiple wire connectors from center bundle, and pics of the bundle on the left (close to the power hookup).
the third connector is the low brake cutoff, so you'll need that if you decide to use cruise control. still looking at the others.
 
I decided to wire the other side of the ignition to the positive side of the batt in and it turns on, but the motor makes a nasty loud racket and barely turns.
All the wires for the hall and 3 phase are color coded, so everything shud be wired fine.

Cept there is one white hall wire coming from the motor that the controller didnt have.
 
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