Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

[justin_le]

Is it possible to flash the CAv3 with a universal USB TTL converter or only with the special FTDI cable?

In theory any device that can make a virtual COM port on your PC and output it into a TTL level RS232 signal should work. However, I've heard of people having problems with the cheaper brand adapters usually running the prolific chipset or clones. In some cases shortening the cable length was required and then it was OK. The CA also has resistors inline with the TX and RX connections to protect against stray voltages damaging the chip, but that means that a TTL drivers with high output impedance or low impedance on their input might have communication issues and be more susceptible to noise.

If people can comment on 3rd party USB->TTL adapters that they have comfirmed DO work for programming the CA3 then that would be useful. We tested a number before settling on the FTDI as being the most troublefee and reliable so decided to stock that, but it's also one of the more expensive units which isn't to everyone's taste.

-Justin

 

[bio]

Yes thanks, shorter cable with a laptop have worked it is a prolific.

 

[teklektik]

...i am playing around with a hub motor and controller combo i got from John from CR...
I have tried all the different throttle output options with out been able to get rid of the surging and if i set the throttle output to be 3V max it will sit in the surging speed range continuously.

It shouldn't be necessary to try different combinations of things. Have you followed the setup procedures carefully in the Installation Guide? If not, then please do. Once you have it properly set up in PassThru mode, you can move on to Current Throttle and tune the gain and ramping again.

You do mention that you are playing with a motor. With no load, some of the behavior with a CA may seem a little odd so it's not necessarily an indication that something is wrong.

 

[bio]

When i press the e-brake that is only connected to CAv3 B22 than my Kelly controller stops and gives the error (Hall throttle is open or short-circuit)

When i start the hub motor it makes loud grinding noise and my bike is vibrating abnormal like its in regen and forward at same time but only till i reach ~15kp/h after that it gets smoth.
When i than release the throttle slowly i get regen current with the regen grinding noise.
When i relese throttle fast i roll out normaly.
This was all on load with me on bike.


Why i get regen without anything connected to the break switch plug on my Kelly controller ?

 

[teklektik]

When i press the e-brake that is only connected to CAv3 B22 than my Kelly controller stops and gives the error (Hall throttle is open or short-circuit)

This is likely occurring because the V3 reduces ThrO to 0v on an eBrake input. This out-of-bounds signal is designed to be used in a future eBrake-passthru widget to re-create the ebrake signal for the controller without actually running an extra wire back to the controller. I'm sure your controller sees this 0v input as a short to Gnd.

There is presently no means to defeat this behavior in the V3. I can think of a bit of electrical subterfuge to get around it, but I would recommend running your ebrake back to the controller as a temporary workaround. Justin can address this question more thoroughly than I can, but he may be traveling and tied up for a short time.

When i start the hub motor it makes loud grinding noise and my bike is vibrating abnormal like its in regen and forward at same time but only till i reach ~15kp/h after that it gets smoth.
When i than release the throttle slowly i get regen current with the regen grinding noise.
When i relese throttle fast i roll out normaly.
This was all on load with me on bike.

Why i get regen without anything connected to the break switch plug on my Kelly controller ?

Someone with Kelly experience can answer this better, but a very quick glance at a Kelly manual shows that it can operate in what sounds like an automatic detection mode ("release throttle regen") that may be in play here. Maybe you can investigate the available modes for your controller and rig it for non-automatic 'eBrake' regen only.

In any case, the present V3 without the planned ebrake passthru widget precludes hooking the ebrakes to the CA if your controller has ebrake-regen, so as above, you may need to restore that connection. Any automatic regen by the controller will result in the controller and V3 fighting each other ("grinding noise").

Hope this helps - no real Kelly experience here - just something to maybe try/think about until Justin (or a knowledgable Kelly person) can make a more informed response....

 

[bio]

Someone with Kelly experience can answer this better, but a very quick glance at a Kelly manual shows that it can operate in what sounds like an automatic detection mode ("release throttle regen") that may be in play here. Maybe you can investigate the available modes for your controller and rig it for non-automatic 'eBrake' regen only.

In any case, the present V3 without the planned ebrake passthru widget precludes hooking the ebrakes to the CA if your controller has ebrake-regen, so as above, you may need to restore that connection. Any automatic regen by the controller will result in the controller and V3 fighting each other ("grinding noise").

Hope this helps - no real Kelly experience here - just something to maybe try/think about until Justin (or a knowledgable Kelly person) can make a more informed response....

Automatic regen was off.
And even when i disable regen totaly in controller setup it still makes regen when i release the throttle slowly.

I have now connected the throttle only to the controller and it seems that the controller regulates the speed of the hub with power and regen so when i drive slower after fast than it uses regen to slow me down.

Can this happen from wrong hall or phase connection ?

This is a brand new controller i have first tested it today and i dont think this is normal.

 

[teklektik]

Automatic regen was off.
And even when i disable regen totaly in controller setup it still makes regen when i release the throttle slowly.

I have now connected the throttle only to the controller and it seems that the controller regulates the speed of the hub with power and regen so when i drive slower after fast than it uses regen to slow me down.

This sounds like automatic regen to me so it cannot be fully disabled....

I'm assuming that the controller behaves acceptably with a plain throttle connection and no v3 involved and the regen operation in that case gives smooth action. If so, then if you run the V3 in PassThru mode, the result should be the same - the CA will behave like a simple throttle. However, when using Current or Power Throttle, as soon as regen begins to try to slow things down the CA will crank up ThrOut to maintain the current at the level indicated by the operator throttle setting.

Can this happen from wrong hall or phase connection ?

No. I think contacting Kelly to get the regen behavior clarified would a good step. They are unlikely to know anything about the V3, but understanding the regen behavior and verfying the procedure to disable all automatic regen would be very valuable. Again - just winging it here.... :wink:

 

[mrbill]

I ran into another mysterious problem today while I was checking to see if the CAV3 shunt could be set below 0.8mOhm in "Lo" range. I recall that the older CA's wouldn't allow shunt values below 0.8mOhm when in "Lo" (Watt) range, only in "Hi" (kW) range.

So, I tried to set Rshunt to 0.621 mOhm, and upon saving the CA displayed "0.824". I figured that we are still restricted to shunt resistance > 0.8 mOhm in "Lo" range. Then I set the shunt value back to "0.821", where it was set before I did my test, but after the final "OK", it read "0.824" again. Hmm. I tried setting Rshunt to "0.820", and I saw again "0.824" after the final "OK". Grr. I can't set it back to my original value.

What is worse is that after I leave Calibration mode and return to the Calibration entry screen, the number displayed below the word, "Calibration", is "20.8 mOhm". Thinking this might just be a display error I hadn't noticed before I went ahead and checked out the main display screen with a moderate load on the motor, and I saw only 1 to 2 watts where I know there should be about 50 watts. It's as if the shunt value in memory is added to 20 mOhms to get the value (20.8 mOhm) that is actually used. What's even stranger is that it is impossible to enter a shunt value that high through the normal interface. The maximum value that can be entered appears to be 9.999 mOhm.

So, it looks like my CA is hosed and got itself into a mode that I cannot fix by recalibrating. I have not tried to re-flash the program. Shall I try that to see if it clears up the problem?

Lastly, I am still using Beta21. Is this a known bug, and has it been fixed in Beta22?

Thanks.

 

[justin_le]

Lastly, I am still using Beta21. Is this a known bug, and has it been fixed in Beta22?

Yes, and yes. -Justin

 

[mrbill]

Lastly, I am still using Beta21. Is this a known bug, and has it been fixed in Beta22?

Yes, and yes. -Justin

Thanks, Justin.

I'm happy that it is a known bug, fixed in Beta22, and, I'll admit, slightly disappointed that I can't claim any brownie points for my discovery.

 

[bio]

Automatic regen was off.
And even when i disable regen totaly in controller setup it still makes regen when i release the throttle slowly.

I have now connected the throttle only to the controller and it seems that the controller regulates the speed of the hub with power and regen so when i drive slower after fast than it uses regen to slow me down.

This sounds like automatic regen to me so it cannot be fully disabled....

I'm assuming that the controller behaves acceptably with a plain throttle connection and no v3 involved and the regen operation in that case gives smooth action. If so, then if you run the V3 in PassThru mode, the result should be the same - the CA will behave like a simple throttle. However, when using Current or Power Throttle, as soon as regen begins to try to slow things down the CA will crank up ThrOut to maintain the current at the level indicated by the operator throttle setting.

Can this happen from wrong hall or phase connection ?

No. I think contacting Kelly to get the regen behavior clarified would a good step. They are unlikely to know anything about the V3, but understanding the regen behavior and verfying the procedure to disable all automatic regen would be very valuable. Again - just winging it here.... :wink:

Your 1st assumtion was right thats what it behaves.
Your 2nd maybe not:

I did today a 2nd test ride tryed to adjust this regen with throttle ramp/up timing but ended up with controller error code for hall sensor error. Had to push my bike walking home becouse it had a abnormal drag from hub like 10% regen or similar...

I have now opened the hub and now i know what coused maybe all this problems.
Full of moisture and a smell like burned paper and burned elektronics together.
And 1 bearing is fully corroded with rust to the sidecover.
The collor of the stator-phasewire´s varies from dark to normal.

Looks like this motor got cooked becouse of shortenings from the water that was in there.
Maybe that has forced the controller to do regen in this way.

 

[izeman]

ca-v3 dead?

i ordered a new usb->ttl adapter, which was recognized fine by windows7.
open ca firmware updater 1.1 and loaded new firmware b22.

connected the ca. display showed -> pc connection
pressed "update firmware" and it showed "please cycle power to the device"
did it, and ca just rebooted.
tried several times, always the same.

then it found the old firmware upgrade program. fired it up, pressed "detect device" and it was detected. chose firmware, hit flash, and got this result:

flash failed. tried again with updater 1.1, and got this:

screen is black (blacklight lit, but no characters on the screen) now, ca not working anymore. what shall i do? any ideas?

 

[teklektik]

Your 1st assumtion was right thats what it behaves.
Your 2nd maybe not:
...
Looks like this motor got cooked becouse of shortenings from the water that was in there.
Maybe that has forced the controller to do regen in this way.

Apologies - I thought the bike was originally running okay prior to adding the V3.
Sorry to hear about your motor... sounds like a little more than a hall problem...

 

[teklektik]

ca-v3 dead?

i ordered a new usb->ttl adapter, which was recognized fine by windows7.
then it found the old firmware upgrade program. fired it up, pressed "detect device" and it was detected. chose firmware, hit flash, and got this result:


flash failed.
...
screen is black (blacklight lit, but no characters on the screen) now, ca not working anymore. what shall i do? any ideas?

It looks like your flash attempt with the old updater was partially successful and erased the exising software then failed when loading the new version - hence the brain-dead CA. Seems to be a case of threshold communication.

I think your CA is okay but you are having a downloader or cable issue. Please try again using a different USB port and if using a laptop, make sure it's on a power adapter, not running on batteries.

I will PM and send a different 'old' updater that I use. My laptop cannot download to my V3's using updater 1.1 but works fine with the prior version. Your updater must be B19 or later for the xxxx_NoCal.hex files to load properly.

Update - resolved at least in part to 3rd party USB cable signals too low...

 

[hjns]

Hi all, some issues solved and a nice surprise.

I had previously run into irregularities due to moisture. After I had packed the CA into a plastic bag, most of the issues were solved. However, when it then started to freeze, the CA started to misbehave, not recognizing the actual speed, nor amps, nor temp. I had replaced all connectors (incl dp) with 2mm gold connectors just to be sure that there were no issues there.

Anyway, I had to solve it by just reflash to B19 again. This made the issue go away for a couple of rides, until the CA would misbehave again, and I would reflash again.

Now, I have just flashed to B22, and I like it very much. I also like the way I can enter the rdshunt value in 2 digits before the decimal. Thanks, Justin, for implementing that one as well, so I can now enter 13.75 mOhm in low range and then switch to high range and have the correct rdshunt value of 1.375 mOhm, and still make use of a current limit of more than 99A. I am really looking forwards to try a limit of 150A at 20S...... although it is difficult enough to get into the 8kW range (99A). I only really achieved that when accelerating from standstill up a 30% hill.....

 

[rscamp]

Here's a short video showing the noise pickup on the temperature sensor that I was describing earlier. The noise with the motor and R/C Pulse off is compared with the noise with the R/C Pulse functioning and the drive at partial throttle.

[youtube]xihDc4YHAZ8[/youtube]

 

[Bluefang]

...i am playing around with a hub motor and controller combo i got from John from CR...
I have tried all the different throttle output options with out been able to get rid of the surging and if i set the throttle output to be 3V max it will sit in the surging speed range continuously.

It shouldn't be necessary to try different combinations of things. Have you followed the setup procedures carefully in the Installation Guide? If not, then please do. Once you have it properly set up in PassThru mode, you can move on to Current Throttle and tune the gain and ramping again.

You do mention that you are playing with a motor. With no load, some of the behavior with a CA may seem a little odd so it's not necessarily an indication that something is wrong.

I went thru all the setup again and it did not change, read thru the entire thread again seeing if something similar had shown up and i came across a comment from Justin about the speed limiter affecting the throttle due to it thinking its going to over shoot the mark but not showing up in the limiting indicator section due to been too fast. Found the gains for the speed settings and changed them to be really low and problem solved. Didn't really think the gains on any of the limits would affect the mid section of the throttle specially when i limited the throttle to the point where the oscillating happened continuously, but my problem has gone so i am super happy with V3 now as i can tame my 20kw beast so i can ride to work with out thinking i am going to fly off the back of the bike. And i can showboat with out the bike surging under me

Shit scary fast bike now

 

[Architectonic]

I'm happy that it is a known bug, fixed in Beta22, and, I'll admit, slightly disappointed that I can't claim any brownie points for my discovery.

I found that one a few months back, but you explained it more clearly than I ever did.

 

[mrbill]

Today I took a long ride, mainly to enjoy the beautiful, clear day, but also to test the new Beta22 on the CAV3. My blog entry is here:

http://mrbill.homeip.net/bikeBlog.php?2013#santaCruz.2013.02.24

But, in this posting I will present my notes, observations, and questions about Beta22 from today's ride.

Power throttle works pretty much as expected. I set the cruise lock time to 3 sec and the threshold voltage to 0.25 volts, but I often had trouble getting it to lock in 3 seconds, especially if power was varying significantly due to terrain while the throttle voltage was maintained within the required 0.25 volts. Seemed to take a full count of "five" or longer when I was on any screen but the diagnostic screen. For some reason when I watched the diagnostic screen, it would always lock in a little over 3 seconds. Maybe my finger isn't steady unless I'm paying attention.

I can see myself using power throttle with a lower maximum limit when I'm riding with non-ebikers, perhaps using an alternate preset. My maximum power is normally set to 1000 watts, but I usually find myself cruising at 250-400 watts. This ends up being difficult to dial in as the throttle is in the lower range of its throw. Combined with the up-ramp delay I often found myself starting out with a surge of too much power and having to dial it back before the cruise would lock.

It was nice to up-shift to a taller gear and have the controller instantly ramp back the throttle to maintain the set power. And, it was also nice when reaching the top of a rise to have the motor continue to apply constant power as the RPMs increased. On the other hand, I miss the "press me back into my seat"--I ride a recumbent--feel that occurs with a voltage-based cruise control when the road heads up. With the power cruise, my speed slows in proportion to the increased grade just as it would if I were pedaling on human power only.

Throttle up-ramp and fast up-ramp seems to work only in "Speed" and "Power" throttle modes. (I assume it also works in "Current" throttle, although I didn't test this, figuring the behavior was almost the same as "Power" throttle as I use LiFe batteries that have good regulation.) The delay between throttle application and acceleration is a bit disconcerting at first, but as I watched the instantaneous current, I could see that current is low until system backlash is taken up, then current ramped up to the given setting.

I briefly tried the "Speed" throttle, but I didn't like its behavior. Maybe this would work better on a motor that has only one output gear or a DD hub motor. It was almost impossible to get the cruise control to lock in "Speed" mode. Even when I observed the diagnostic screen and saw the "In" flashing, I'd release the throttle only to lose power.

In general it seems that the cruise control has trouble locking when the actual "Speed" or "Power" is varying significantly, even if the throttle voltage is being held within a tight range for the required lock time.

In "Pass-Thru" mode the throttle operates without delay as if it's connected to the controller (although subject to the limits, speed, current, power, temperature, etc., set elsewhere). Most of the time I think I prefer this, but it would be nice to have the option of up-ramp, down-ramp, and fast up-ramp available in Pass-Thru mode.

The battery capacity icon showed an empty battery when I had 8 Ah (out of 53 Ah) still unused. This would be about 15% State of Charge (SOC). Does this icon behave like most auto fuel gauges that show "Empty" when there's still a few gallons left in the tank? Also, what happened to the numeric percent SOC statistic in Beta22? I liked seeing this in Beta21.

Although I don't yet have a Thun BB, I noticed that the trip PAS screen is missing a couple of stats that would be interesting to see: "Maximum Human Power" and "Maximum Human RPM". Perhaps these could be displayed alternating every few seconds with the Average figure.

 

[Architectonic]

I don't think the speed mode will work well with cruise unless the CA provides the cruise control...

 

[teklektik]

...It shouldn't be necessary to try different combinations of things. Have you followed the setup procedures...?

I went thru all the setup again and it did not change, read thru the entire thread again seeing if something similar had shown up and I came across a comment from Justin about the speed limiter affecting the throttle due to it thinking it's going to over shoot the mark but not showing up in the limiting indicator section due to been too fast. Found the gains for the speed settings and changed them to be really low and problem solved.

...my problem has gone so I am super happy with V3 now as I can tame my 20kw beast so I can ride to work without thinking I am going to fly off the back of the bike. And I can showboat without the bike surging under me

Excellent to hear the problem is resolved and there is another V3 Grin.

Unfortunately, the portion of the Installation Guide addressing Gain adjustments does not cover speed adjustments at all as I haven't tried Speed Throttle in the later firmware versions and did not feel comfortable writing about a adjustment procedure with no firsthand experience. In this case, however, I think you ran afoul of the 'rapid acceleration' situation called out in this post (that massive 20kW at work...) which comes into play even without Speed Throttle. This information should certainly be included.

The section on speed oscillations will be expanded in the next doc release to address this situation. Thanks for writing about your experience and posting back with details of the outcome.

 

[hjns]

Another feature request:

Could we perhaps have the capability to flash the CA with a text file with preset variable values in it? After flashing to whatever firmware, it would be nice to just "flash" an accompanying text file into the CA with the rdshunt value, throttle values, etc. A commented text file would also be very easy to edit, or even build a GUI for. It would definitely save me a lot of CA-clicking.....

 

[izeman]

ca-v3 dead?

i ordered a new usb->ttl adapter, which was recognized fine by windows7.
then it found the old firmware upgrade program. fired it up, pressed "detect device" and it was detected. chose firmware, hit flash, and got this result:


flash failed.
...
screen is black (blacklight lit, but no characters on the screen) now, ca not working anymore. what shall i do? any ideas?

It looks like your flash attempt with the old updater was partially successful and erased the exising software then failed when loading the new version - hence the brain-dead CA. Seems to be a case of threshold communication.
Update - resolved at least in part to 3rd party USB cable signals too low...

nope. unfortunately not. i have a rs232->5v ttl converter now, and the problem is the same. it stops communication when asking for write confirmation.
any ideas what i can try now to revive it?

EDIT: WHAT THE F$%$§%$§&%§&&CK!!!! THIS F$%$§%§%§ING PROLIFIC chip. both of the two i had available where prolific. none of them worked. i now tested my home brew rs232>ttl converter on the internal com1 port of my windows desktop pc (i had to dig deep in my hardware trunk to find the com1 cable ) - plugged it in and it worked. really happy now!
sorry for the bad words, but i just can't believe that i spent almost a WHOLE WEEKEND with this bad adapter for nothing.
this goes out as a word of warning to everyone: BUY THAT CABLE FROM JUSTIN and save yourself trouble. i would have done, but thought i was smarter as i have plenty of hardware and gadgets laying around, so i thought i could make it. big fail
thanks to teklektik and michael from ebikes.ca for the support!!!

 

[Kepler]

Having some problems getting the PAS up and running with my RC friction drive setup. Basically everything works fine with the hall throttle but I can't get the PAS input to start the motor.

Setting wise I have the following.
SETUP PAS SENSOR
< 5P D (arrow up). P (arrow up)

Hey Kepler, this is where the preview screen here will be super useful. As you turn the pedals, do you see the arrow after the 'P' signal toggle between an up and a down arrow? This is an indicator of whether the CA sees what it thinks is a logic '0' or logic '1' on the input. I would have thought that 1V is low enough to trigger a logic '0' threshold, but if it's not consistent you could probably put a resistor to Gnd to help pull this voltage down further.

The up arrow after the 'D' means that you need to set the PAS-> Dir Plrty to be "5V = Fwd". Otherwise if you have it at "5V=Rev" it thinks that you are pedaling backwards when the direction pin is at 5V.

Let me know if that sorts it. With the direction polarity set correctly and the PAS input toggling you should be able to see your pedal RPM on the 3rd display screen and the PAS assist modes should work fine too. The default values for the Strt and Stop delay times are good for an 8 pole sensor, but for a 5 pole sensor you might want to increase them about 50% otherwise it will likely cutout when you are pedaling at a slowish cadence.

Now that I think about it, make sure you don't have a linear voltage PAS pickup that tries to emulate a 1-4V throttle signal rather than giving a pulse for each magnet passing. If so it's all but useless. I recall some of the early Crystalyte PAS sensors were like this which was necessary to interface with their old analog controllers.

-Justin

Hi Justin, it did end up being the actual PAS sensor I was using. It looks like it was a linear voltage type. When I hooked it up to my throttle tester, running a magnet quickly past it would emulate an increase in throttle then just go back to a throttle off state. The new one that I installed clearly shows an on off type of action when moving a magnet over the sensor.

 

[Kepler]

I am trying the keep the wire could down on my install by only using the 6 pin JST plug back to the CA for everything.

The CA I have has a separate speedo pickup so I get a spare wire there but I need two spare wires for the way I want to wire this.

I am looking to run the PAS signal back plus the temp signal.

For PAS I can connect the ground and +5V to the controller and use the yellow Sp wire for PAS signal. No problems there.

However for the thermister I was looking to use the S- wire and ground from the hall sensors. This way I just need to feed one wire through the axle.
I don't understand what the S- is used for as its directly connected to ground anyway and seems to me that any ground would do the trick. With this in mind I was thinking I just bridge S- to ground at the CA.

Hopefully this will work and keep my wiring from the controller to the CA at a minimum. Please let me know if there is a problem with wiring this way.