DiamondBack, Cyclone 650watts and Dewalt A123 packs

[kfong]

Here is what I have so far for the motor mount. I had to figure out the clearances for the fastners and provide a path for the shifter cables. Hopefully I'll find some time to start milling in the next few days. Need to add an anchor point to keep it from any rotation. Not sure if I will have access to the water bottle mounting holes, so I'll have to wait and see how it comes together.

Kin
http://www.embeddedtronics.com/

 

[kfong]

You know the saying "measure twice and cut once". I wish I had done this. I did the brackets this weekend but they are too wide, set for 1.5" diameter. Messed up while drawing it. I should of printed it out and matched it to the bike. Would of saved me time and materials. On top of that I should of really looked at the crank setup. The Cyclone uses a very generic crank. It doesn't look compatible to the Shimano cranks on my Motobecane or Mongoose. It does match the low end shimano crank I have on my Diamond Back. So now I have to switch it over to this bike for the Cyclone conversion, which has an even different diameter tube. I would not recommend the cyclone for any high end bike due to the problems I've been encountering. Here are pictures of the problem. The high end Shimano cranks have an integrated assembly. You would have to do some serious machining to get it to work.

So this is the bike I will be using, It's a solid frame, maybe I can find a used front shock, but I'm sure that's going to be a hard one to find that fits this old bike. Even the seat post looks to narrow for an active spring seat. Not the bike I had envisioned, but it will have to do untll I get a BMC motor for the Motobecane.

Kin
http://www.embeddedtronics.com/

 

[lawsonuw]

(GRRRR I found a magic keyboard shortcut and it wiped out the browser and my last post )

The mongoose looks like it may have a taper-square crank. If it does the cyclone crank should fit.

If you extend the motor mounting plate of your mount, the plate will be able to directly screw to the frame clamps. (eliminates two parts) Mixing and matching washers between the clamps and motor mount will allow for chain line adjustment. A key can be screwed to the water bottle mounts and used to take torque. I usually make clamp on stuff as one piece and only saw it into two pieces as the last step. (saves me time)

My 2Wh,
Marty

 

[andys]

You can find seatpost shocks in any size, even 25.4mm (1 inch). It will have the size on the bottom of your stock seatpost.

You have to search hard, but you can also still find a good basic front suspension fork in 1 inch threaded size, which is what your bike probably has. I just got one for a friends old hard bike on ebay. Only has 40mm travel, but it helped a lot to take the sting out of our lousy roads. A nice side affect is that it raised the front end of the bike up a couple of inches, making it more comfortable to ride. Measure the OD of the threads on the stock fork. If it is 1 1/8 inch by chance, any modern fork would fit. You just have to get a threadless headset and different stem for the handlebars.

Here is the fork I got. You also need to measure your steerer length, but i htink this one would work. Price is right too.

http://www.nycbikes.com/item.php?item_id=477

 

[kfong]

Good info guys, I ended up starting the install last night on the Diamond Back, it seems to be the easier bike to setup. Picked up the tools from REI and completed most of the motor install. I decided to just do the quick install much like the Cyclone page with the motor at the bottom of the bike. Since the Diamond Back isn’t really a good trail bike, why go through the extra work. I will try to take apart the crank on the Mongoose tonight and see if it’s compatible. If I can use this bike, I’m willing to upgrade it with a suspension fork and go with my original motor mount plan. A seat post shock will be on the final bike.

I was disappointed with the crank assembly on the Diamond Back. It's a one-piece unit that includes the press fit arm and 2 main gears, so only the rear shifter will be used now, unless I pick up some main gears.

Time to focus on the batteries. Currently in the process of balancing them before I commit them into packs. I have the BMS circuit designed, but need to order the parts and start on the programming part of it. I’ll post pictures of the bike as soon as I have the controller and throttle wired up. I noticed on some of the newer ebike kits that they have a cutoff as soon as you hit the brakes. Something I would like to add to my setup as well. Does anyone know how the brakes work, is it a contact switch built into the brake? This seems like an easy modification.

Kin
http://www.embeddedtronics.com/

 

[StinkyGoalieGuy]

Regarding the brakes with the cutoff, the 500 watt kit has these as an option (or maybe it came with the kit, I can't remember). Anyways there were extra ports in the wiring harness so that you could just plug them in. Does the 650 watt kit have any extra ports in the wiring setup? If so, you could probably order just the brakes with the cuttoff switch. You might be able to get them faster from Jim Olsen at Cyclone USA.

 

[kfong]

Hey, thanks I'll look into the controller if it has that option. I'm thinking it's just a contact switch, usually shorted to ground. If this is the case then I can come up with my own mechanical switch and connect it to the controller. They didn't provide any documents with my controller so I'll have to do some research on it.

Kin
http://www.embeddedtronics.com/

 

[kfong]

I finished mounting the motor and throttle assembly last night. Tested the system with two lead acid packs. Runs fine on the stand, didn’t add any links to the chain. I suspect I might need to do this since I don’t have a good chain wrap around the Cyclone motor sprocket, but will need to change the chain tension setup as well. I don’t think Cyclone addressed this part of if very well. I will have to come up with a better setup if the chain slips, but will leave it for now till I can really test it with good batteries. I'll eventually remove the front derailer since it has no use, unless I pick up some front sprockets, still to early to know if I plan to do this. Lost the use of the kick stand, will have to come up with one that works, since this is going to be used around town a lot.


Time to focus on the controller, I took it apart to see if the box they put it in really needed to be that big. The controller actually takes up most of the space. The edges need to be sealed with silicone to prevent moisture from seeping in. I plan to mill out the mounting ends tonight to make it more of a box, and create my own mounting brackets for it. The good news is I have brake connectors, two of them. I should be able to wire up switches to the existing brakes.

Here is a photo from the top of the bike; you can see how far the motor sticks out and why Cyclone provided new crank arms and crank. I did take it for a pedal ride and it felt ok even with one pedal out farther than the other. I thought I would notice this more but it hasn’t been the case. I don’t think I would like it if it was going to be my trail bike.



Kin
http://www.embeddedtronics.com/

 

[StinkyGoalieGuy]

Looking good. If you need more chain wrap around the motor sprocket, you could move your idler onto the bolt just above the one that you have it on now, assuming the spacing is ok. Then pass the chain over the top of the idler, all the way around and back around the motor sprocket. But you will need to add quite a few more links. But if it works fine now, then obviously, this step won't be necessary.

 

[andys]

Wow, that crank arm does stick out more than I thought it would need to. I think that would be hard for me to get used to and may feel weird on a longer ride.

 

[kfong]

Yeah, that's why I posted the photo. You never see it from above. The only pictures are usually from the sprocket view and that side needs to be more inline with the derailers. I didn't realize how much the motor sticks out till I put one together. You really want the motor in the back to do it correctly, so it's out of the way of the pedals. If I could weld a bike frame together, it would be the approach I would go. Hub motors are cleaner installs. I'm waiting for the new BMC motors to come out. They are geared, and the new ones have stronger composite gears. This will go into the Fantom since I could not see myself installing a cyclone setup on such a nice bike without being disappointed at the outcome.

Kin
http://www.embeddedtronics.com

 

[GGoodrum]

Your picture just confirms what ypedal and I have discerned, which is with the 1000W-1500W model, all they do is hack up the mounting plate for the 500W/650W kit, and include the same bag of installation bits. With the !000W setup, the motor isn't inline with the existing crankset. There is a second chainring sprocket that the motor drives with a second chain. The motor does not have an internal gearbox like the one used in the 500W/650W version. In any case, the motor is not as wide either, so you don't need the long axle. All I did was pull off the old crank, and put on the one provided.

My only complaint is that the system is quite noisy. I'm going to look into using a smaller pitch motor and chainring sprocket, or maybe a belt drive, in order to get some of the "stealthiness" back.

On my other 20" folding bike (the one in my current avatar...), I'm going to replace the front-mounted 5303, with one of the new composite-geared BMC 1000W motors as well. Hopefully, these won't be vaporware for too much longer.

-- Gary

 

[kfong]

Gary, I just went back on the site to see the 1000W setup. From what I gather, since the 1000w system is direct drive. They use 2 sprockets to reduce the RPM's to a more manageable level. Correct me if I’m wrong on this. Also since the motor is shorter it still sticks out far enough that you have to use their crank arms to provide the extra space needed. I went with the 650watt version to keep my running watts low, but perhaps I would have been better off with the 1000W to begin with. At least the pedals would have been equal on both sides.

Kin
http://www.embeddedtronics.com

 

[GGoodrum]

Gary, I just went back on the site to see the 1000W setup. From what I gather, since the 1000w system is direct drive. They use 2 sprockets to reduce the RPM's to a more manageable level. Correct me if I’m wrong on this. Also since the motor is shorter it still sticks out far enough that you have to use their crank arms to provide the extra space needed. I went with the 650watt version to keep my running watts low, but perhaps I would have been better off with the 1000W to begin with. At least the pedals would have been equal on both sides.

Kin
http://www.embeddedtronics.com

You are right on both counts. The crankset provided has two sprockets, a 44T for the motor drive,with a 6T on the motor, and a 36T for the pedal drive. The motor is only about 4" long, but more like 5", or so, in diameter. It looks like a baby Etek.

The watts used is a function of the load you put through it, which you could always limit via the throtle, or a CA, if one is used. Given the same load, the larger motor should run with less heat, so it could be more eficient that the smaller one. In my case, I wanted the best upper-end performance I could get, and I was not disappointed. I replaced a 72V/70A+ 5303 setup on this bike with a stock Cyclone 1000W system that runs maxes out at 55A at 48V (2700W on my WattsUp...), and because of the extra gearing (using the Nexus 3-speed hub...), it definitely has noticably more low-end torque, and a higher top speed as well. The new setup is a ton lighter as well. If it weren't for the extra racket this makes, I would not hesitate to put this same setup on all my bikes.

I haven't personally tried a geared hubmotor on anything, so I really can't comment on how they would compare to my "benchmark" X5 setups, but my gut tells me that the 1000W model would be comparable, especially at 72V. It would be really great, however, if it will come close to the same sort of performance at only 48V, like the Cyclone 1000W system does. Life is so much easier at 48V.

-- Gary

 

[kfong]

On my setup I was planning to run 36volts. I recall seeing the bigger motor being more efficient at higher voltages. I’m wondering if your noise can be attributed to the double chain and gears. On mine when I tested it, I wasn’t too bothered by the noise. Not much more than the sound like those oldtime external light generators, but I really won’t know till I test it out with real batteries. I finished wiring the bike and mounting the controller. I will eventually paint the controller black to blend in better. Here are pictures of the mount I made and how the wired up bike looks.





Kin
http://www.embeddedtronics.com/

 

[GGoodrum]

Yes, I'm sure the "racket" mine makes is due to the extra chain drive. The first thing I will try is to use a smaller pitch chain, like #25. I'll have to see if I can find a suitable go kart sprocket that I can modify to replace the 44T drive sprocket.

I like the mount you did for the controller. I ended up bolting mine to the the underside of a rear seat post rack.

That motor is a lot longer than the 1000W version. I can definitely see why the longer crank is needed.

-- Gary

 

[kfong]

Realizing it will be a while before I get the battery packs completed. I got impatient and decided to just try it with 2 dewalt packs unmodified. I’ve seen threads of people doing this on their ebikes but you need to be careful about blowing the bms by drawing too much current. I made sure both packs were close to the same voltage before I parallel them together. Being caution I put an amp meter to see if there would be much current flow. Only a couple amps a first and then the packs settled in. This looked promising and I quickly duct taped the pack to the bike.

On my first run, the motor moved and I was left walking it back from the street. Luckily I didn’t get very far. I then proceeded to tighten everything after realigning the motor. My second run was a complete success. I had the EV grin I then did a speed test. I was able to max out at 26mph. I’m happy with this speed, since the brakes were rather bad on the bike. I’ll have to try new brake pads or something since it takes way too much distance to stop. I then took it to the school yard to ride on the grass. I put it in a lower gear and had a riot. I could not pedal this fast on grass. On the way back I did something stupid. I tried to run the bike from a dead start and popped the bms. I must have drawn too much current. Luckily I had a spare from other discarded pack. I will have to take it easy on the starts until I get the packs completed. The bike wasn’t very noisy. I might need to come up with a better location for the idler, since I see the chain bouncing every so often.

Very pleased with the final results, although this was not what I had originally planned. It will serve as a good commuter bike for errands and such, and I won’t need to worry about it while I have it parked, might even put an ugly front basket and side saddles. It won’t be long before I start the Motobecane conversion now that I’m a converted ebiker

Kin
http://www.embeddedtronics.com/

 

[Tom]

I've been lurking here for 2 months and have decided on my ebike. Motobecan 08 Fantom or 09 700DS

I ended up pulling the trigger on a 700DS. Too good a deal to pass up with the 30% live.com cash back promotion on ebay buy it now auctions (looks like it's down to 20% now). Net cost was a little under $500 shipped. Would have preferred the Fantom DS for storing batteries in the frame but couldn't find one on ebay.

 

[kfong]

That was the bike I was going with at first, but ended up liking the Fantom frame a little more. That's a great price! I bet I would of broke down and gone your route since at the time the prices were only a few hundred in difference. The new BMC motors are out, but quite pricey. I'm going to wait a while before I convert my Fantom. It's been a fun bike to ride just by itself.

In the meantime I’ll be finishing the Diamondback. I had to mill out a plate for the idler. The current setup allowed for too much chain movement. It looks like the Cyclone system is going to be left on the Diamondback. I would not want it on my good mountain bike due to the crank offset, but find it perfectly fine for just running around town. It’s going to be my utility ebike that I won’t need to worry about. I’ll probably add a full suspension fork and front disk brake if I can find a good deal on one.

I've been just using 2 dewalt packs to test it out, but I'm starting to like the idea of keeping the packs intact and have them in a plug and play fashion. The BMS is said to have problems, but I think I can work around this. I've already had to repair the fuses and destroyed 2 cells while riding. I will be looking into adding a circuit to use the BMS instead of bypassing it like most are currently doing. I've read that people are having better luck with Milwaukee power packs, since their BMS setup is better. Since I already have all the A123 packs I need, I will be working with what I have. If I were to do it over, Milwaukee is the battery setup I would go with on the Diamondback. I still might go this route since I will be needing the A123 for a custom pack setup for the Fantom eventually.

For a utility ebike setup. Very clean and easy to charge. Cheaper as well. http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=2051&p=27304#p27304.
video how to http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=4455&p=67330&hilit=+jondoh#p67330 and the batteries stay under warranty.

Here is the new idler plate.

and what it looks like now.

It's working out better. I don't think it can slip now and I can adjust it easily as well. If you notice, I've had to add a rear kickstand since I could no longer use the normal one.

Kin
http://www.embeddedtronics.com/

 

[kfong]

I finally had some time to get back to the cylcone conversion. I've been just riding the bike on 2 dewalt packs. As long as I don't go below 29volts the packs are taking the abuse. I've updated the idler part of the bike with a rollerblade wheel. No more chain slipping. Had to get my CNC up an running to get the next part of the bike done. Here are some CNC parts for the batteries and a new top deck for cargo. The deck size is 17inches x 11.5 inches. I should be able to put a milkcrate on this one. Milled a bunch of holes and slots for straps and bungee hooks.

 

[kfong]

Here is a initial test fit of the battery tray and wood deck. I made the deck wide so it can be used to lock the batteries in, it's long as well so I can use it for cargo. I plan to install a key to allow access to the batteries. The deck will be removable too. I still need to CNC some spacers to finish up the mounting. Waiting for my circuit boards from the board house as well. The circuit boards will allow me to use the dewalt packs without any mods.

 

[kfong]

Some more updates. I had to redo part of the mounting for the bike rack so it would sit more level. I started to put all the CNC parts together and work out how I wanted the fasteners to mount. So far I'm quite happy with the results.
The batteries slide in nicely and lock using the standard locking setup. The top deck will secure the batteries, once I install a keylock. Currently waiting for the custom circuit boards to be delivered. Should arrive in about a week.
Then I can proceed to do the wiring. Picked up a loud alarm, so that should be a fun install as well.

 

[pakobike]

Hi, I have just discovered this thread, I have a 500W Cyclone mounted on a full suspension bike.
I think the passage of the chain around the pulley free cyclone is small, it should occupy at least 180 degrees so that the effort is distributed in more links of chain.
attached a picture of my configuration.


I hope you will understand, use an automatic translator.

 

[kfong]

Thanks. currently It's been running fine the way I have it, but your setup looks more secure.

Just gave it a try, I would have to make changes. I have a slight offset with the motor so the way I currently have it works. I will leave it for now and try to get more chain area when I have more time. Thanks for your input.

 

[kfong]

Rode the bike yesterday for about 40miles. Carrying 6 packs, I would use 2 packs at a time and swap them out when low. Head home for a recharge and then head back out again, since it was such a nice day out. The battery holder worked great, I had 4 packs on them while the 2 running ones were just strapped on top. It was a good test to see if they can take the abuse of a fixed frame, before I do the final wiring. It worked out much better than I had hoped. No loose movements even after hitting some serious potholes at high speed or going over grass or dirt trails. Batteries were very much a part of the frame, at times I really wished the bike was full suspension, since I had to slow down from being jarred or thrown. Going to put a front suspension fork on this bike next. Even though it's only going to be used around town, there are lots of areas without sidewalks.