Dr.Bass Steveo found 7s3p Module! Awesome Price!!

mistercrash said:
I think you are way off on the 240 mm dimension. Dimensions from DoctorBass showed the cells to be 7.25 mm thick, so that times 21 is 152.25 mm. From the pic it looks to me like the plastic parts at either end of the module are almost the thickness of three cells but not quite. To me it adds up to just under 190 mm. Anyway, you'll have the real dimensions soon. Really looking forward on your feedback from the modules you ordered.
Click to expand...

I hope they are shorter.....but I found a document that states that a 22s3p module (66 cells) has a length of 578mm. Did a rough calc from there. There are heat sink plates between each cell and I reckon the end plates, BMS module and packing would probably be about 40mm.
 
your the man sutho
i can't waite to see your review
im curious about
1. cell voltages of all the cells - hopefully all the cells in there are good and you dont get too many bad/ defective ones
2. if it's easy to rip the cells out or reconfigure the pack
3. a cba test on at least 1 good cell :) to see if it delivers the full specs- and how many AH they can deliver- that will at least give an idea if these are new or used- being in a pack adds more credibility

it'll be interesting to see the results- hopefully their better than the loose ones
cuz the loose ones are truly 16ah cells- sure the guys are cba testing them down to 2volts but once your down below the 2.8 volt mark is quite useless and dosnt have much to offer
 
This post is just to continue pure speculation & rumor, since we're waiting for modules to arrive in ES member's "electric golden" hands of unobtainium. :p

bigmoose said:
BTW, this is opinion, my opinion... I think these modules hitting the grey market shows the desperate financial state of A123. First they dumped loose cells, now they are dumping the modules. All off shore and in China, so (again IMHO) they are free of all legal obligations to ensure these are only sold to "qualified" individuals by US law.

I also think there is some mix of quality in the cells. If I had to guess I would think the cells sold months ago with cut tabs might be the poorest. They were dumped first (perhaps) and neutered by a company that was more healthy. Then they dumped production stockpiles that were aging. These cells may not have had all the QA done on them. So they may have undetected problems. Now I would bet that cells that made it into modules are darn good cells. ...
Click to expand...
davec said:
it'll be interesting to see the results- hopefully their better than the loose ones
cuz the loose ones are truly 16ah cells- sure the guys are cba testing them down to 2volts but once your down below the 2.8 volt mark is quite useless and dosnt have much to offer
Click to expand...
Teh Stork said:
Yeah, well - that just adds to my confusion at this point. If it was the clamping and misaligning that was the problem - why are we seeing 'new' cells being sold by themselves, not having been assembled or being dissassembled from packs, on the market?
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Another speculation about the sudden availability of unobtainium ...

(At least this guy has ordered over a thousand cells & at least one big A123 module too...)

I don't know how reliable the EVTV guy is, but he keeps rattling on that these cells are not even defective. I think he *only* bases this on his experience buying the loose cells from the same source. He does say WE "here" are at Endless Fear (ES :wink:), though! :roll: :lol: :lol: :mrgreen:

He further believes that, overall, battery or 4 wheel e-vehicle sales vaporized & so A123 suppliers or partners in Korea are just unloading perfectly good product. Of course, he provides no explanation about what is going to happen to all the bad or "potentially defective" cells in the meantime that A123 just recently admitted to AND will cost 55 million to replace! :!: :idea: :p :lol:

I personally do *not* think this is a coincidence that we can just "now" all of a sudden from out of the blue just start buying what was before "unobtainium"... :idea: :shock: :lol:
 
My personal opinion is that A123 have known about the cell alignment problem for a while. As they can't track exactly which cell come from which machine, they don't know which of the cells produced in Livonia are going to exhibit problems. So....best option is to dump the lot and only use known good cells.

If you were A123 and were going to dump the cells, why not get some return in the process and sell them to the Chinese (who have no real morals or recourse when it comes to quality of product) and let them sell them off without A123 even acknowledging that they exist. A123 make some money, the Chinese trading company makes some money....and we get access to product that we had no chance of being able to obtain had their not been a problem with their production.

So.....along with the possibility that the non-US manufacturers of these cells need to maintain production and backdoor cells to keep workers gainfully employed....there are a whole bunch of US manufactured cells and modules that contain up to 25% "dud" cells that have hit the grey market.

I thought that it was a really bad scenario that A123 could:

a) work themselves into a business scenario where they have contracted more production than sales....thus grey market cells

b) produce faulty cells and modules on a super-modern state of the art manufacturing facility built on up to $240M of US Government funding

But.....if this didn't happen, we would not have had the opportunity to purchase these fantastic cells and modules.....albeit with a risk of some failure and loss capacity which can hopefully be repaired without dangerous incident.

So.....some good comes from some bad.

P.s. Length measurement on the 7s3p is apparently 230mm. So I was out by 10mm on my guesstimation.
 
Sutho said:
P.s. Length measurement on the 7s3p is apparently 230mm. So I was out by 10mm on my guesstimation.
Click to expand...
Thanks. Very good estimate & you only overshot 10mm, not bad. :)

Since this defect is caused by a torch misalignment, then the root of the defect had to be isolated in that area of the welds at the top of the tabs. The defect can then apparently only occur once the cell stack is in compression inside the modules. So, maybe there is some tensional forces being exerted on the underneath side of the flimsy tabs that are welded to the bus bar above & this is causing some flex, tension, or torsion forces downward into the pouches where the defect can be created or maybe its located back up near the tab area from underneath the welds. I really think just relieving tension on the cell stack may be the trick & treat for a truly magical solution. :shock: :twisted: (I keep repeating myself on this idea in case you haven't read that several times by now. :p :roll: )

While waiting for modules we could further speculate & bet cells about this too... :D

What could the torch misalignment do to these tabs, because that is the starting point of the problem? :?: This assumes that's the only welding that is done on the cells, right? If so, let the speculation betting begin. :twisted: Let's deal this hand of 5 card draw with deuces & one eyed jacks wild at least. :p

Everyone throw one cell into the pot & see who can win this hand. :shock: :twisted: Cheaters will be shocked but A123 inside straights are most welcome! :lol:
 
Sutho said:
My personal opinion is that A123 have known about the cell alignment problem for a while. As they can't track exactly which cell come from which machine, they don't know which of the cells produced in Livonia are going to exhibit problems. So....best option is to dump the lot and only use known good cells.

If you were A123 and were going to dump the cells, why not get some return in the process and sell them to the Chinese (who have no real morals or recourse when it comes to quality of product) and let them sell them off without A123 even acknowledging that they exist. A123 make some money, the Chinese trading company makes some money....and we get access to product that we had no chance of being able to obtain had their not been a problem with their production.

So.....along with the possibility that the non-US manufacturers of these cells need to maintain production and backdoor cells to keep workers gainfully employed....there are a whole bunch of US manufactured cells and modules that contain up to 25% "dud" cells that have hit the grey market.

I thought that it was a really bad scenario that A123 could:

a) work themselves into a business scenario where they have contracted more production than sales....thus grey market cells

b) produce faulty cells and modules on a super-modern state of the art manufacturing facility built on up to $240M of US Government funding

But.....if this didn't happen, we would not have had the opportunity to purchase these fantastic cells and modules.....albeit with a risk of some failure and loss capacity which can hopefully be repaired without dangerous incident.

So.....some good comes from some bad.

P.s. Length measurement on the 7s3p is apparently 230mm. So I was out by 10mm on my guesstimation.
Click to expand...

Sutho,

I agree 100%, though I think our odds are better than 75%, since not all cells coming off that machine are bad. Hopefully packs made with only or a majority of cells coming off the bad machine I can't wait for your evaluation of how easy these packs are to disassemble.

The sad part in the A123 saga is that even with the taxpayer money A123 is nowhere close to producing, much less selling, good production run batteries at these prices. Their cells are already old tech, though I haven't seen a match for their power density in a safe form with comparable cycle life. More than anything else, our revolution needs good safe batteries for $200/kwh or less, but then our relatively empty spaces left by cars will quickly evaporate.

John
 
I'll tell you John, even at $200/kw car batteries are still gonna cost about 8 grand to replace. That still makes electric cars expensive, unless these newer cells last 20 years. Anyhoo I just got 14 of the 20ah ones from Xin and they have no obvious defects and all were 3.27-3.28 volts. No lumps or bumps that I can feel either and absolutely straight tabs. Lucky? We will see. I did look carefully at the those new modules and it looks to me like it will be easier to assemble what I want from the individual cells. They don't look that easy to get apart. I could be wrong.
otherDoc
 
frodus said:
no weight or dimension info yet?

Here's the pricing I got:
Price :42.8$ for 1s1p
Price :283.3$ for 7S3P
Price :1600.0$ for 42s3p
Price :1052.3$ for 6S13P
Price :1066.6$ for 28s3p


one 7s3p and a 28s3p would be great for my motorcycle. That'd be 1349.90 for a 35s3p 112V 60Ah 6.7kwh pack (and compatible with my charger, controller and BMS). That's ~$200/kwh, wow.

Just need dimensional information, I won't order them if I can't put to use the modules in my motorcycle.
Click to expand...
I'm taking guesses that i might not be able to fit a 42s pack where I need and getting 28s packs leaves me out 28 cells if there is an issue leaving me with a workable pack when I jumper around it, I'll buy a spare as a 'just in case'. Looking for close to 100 cells in series.

So 4 of the 28s3p packs would be $4266.44 plus 2 of the 7s3p is $566.60. $4833.04 grand total That would be 98 cells in series with a 28s pack sitting off to the side in the garage. Considering the guys getting these are getting between 18Ah and sometimes a little over 19Ah, I'd have to figure 18Ah when figuring capacity so 98s of 3.2v 54Ah = 17kwh probably. Not bad.
How much could we figure shipping would be?
 
MN Driver said:
frodus said:
no weight or dimension info yet?

Here's the pricing I got:
Price :42.8$ for 1s1p
Price :283.3$ for 7S3P
Price :1600.0$ for 42s3p
Price :1052.3$ for 6S13P
Price :1066.6$ for 28s3p

one 7s3p and a 28s3p would be great for my motorcycle. That'd be 1349.90 for a 35s3p 112V 60Ah 6.7kwh pack (and compatible with my charger, controller and BMS). That's ~$200/kwh, wow.

Just need dimensional information, I won't order them if I can't put to use the modules in my motorcycle.
Click to expand...
I'm taking guesses that i might not be able to fit a 42s pack where I need and getting 28s packs leaves me out 28 cells if there is an issue leaving me with a workable pack when I jumper around it, I'll buy a spare as a 'just in case'. Looking for close to 100 cells in series.

So 4 of the 28s3p packs would be $4266.44 plus 2 of the 7s3p is $566.60. $4833.04 grand total That would be 98 cells in series with a 28s pack sitting off to the side in the garage. Considering the guys getting these are getting between 18Ah and sometimes a little over 19Ah, I'd have to figure 18Ah when figuring capacity so 98s of 3.2v 54Ah = 17kwh probably. Not bad.
How much could we figure shipping would be?
Click to expand...
You can email their contact directly about shipping. The EVTV guy said he got the 28s3p pack for $10 per cell, so there might be some wiggle room already on pricing. (Though he has already bought over 1,000 loose cells.)

No one has started the "group buy" yet, because we are waiting for more info about these packs before attempting a group buy. Need feedback here about modules 1st, IMO. :idea: :mrgreen:
 
deVries said:
You can email their contact directly about shipping. The EVTV guy said he got the 28s3p pack for $10 per cell, so there might be some wiggle room already on pricing. (Though he has already bought over 1,000 loose cells.)
Click to expand...
Would you happen to have a link?
 
Based on my experience....don't send any money to Victpower at this point. They don't have modules to ship. I paid my money, they asked me to pay an additional $900 for freight cos' they got the freight cost wrong......then they told me that they want to ship me part of my order and then more when they have more bits.

Will let you know how this pans outs.....
 
DeVries, I just ordered myself 1 sample module 7S3P, when I get it, I will be taking detailed pictures, and looking deeper on how the pack was built and etc, and ofc the quality of it.
 
SlyCayer said:
DeVries, I just ordered myself 1 sample module 7S3P, when I get it, I will be taking detailed pictures, and looking deeper on how the pack was built and etc, and ofc the quality of it.
Click to expand...
Hey, good news! :mrgreen: Look forward to your pictures & review. Thank you!!! :D
Sutho said:
Based on my experience....don't send any money to Victpower at this point. They don't have modules to ship. I paid my money, they asked me to pay an additional $900 for freight cos' they got the freight cost wrong......then they told me that they want to ship me part of my order and then more when they have more bits.

Will let you know how this pans outs.....
Click to expand...
Hmmm... Not a good sign for sure... :?
 
I'll be watching this thread closely. I'm looking at this for hybrid car or small EV applications.
It would be helpful to know some of the dimensions, especially the 42s3p.
To provide more flexibility of configuration, it might be easier to be easier to do six of the 7s3p instead. (But would cost a bit more.)
 
Sutho said:
Based on my experience....don't send any money to Victpower at this point. They don't have modules to ship. I paid my money, they asked me to pay an additional $900 for freight cos' they got the freight cost wrong......then they told me that they want to ship me part of my order and then more when they have more bits.

Will let you know how this pans outs.....
Click to expand...

:shock: I hope that is only with the 7s3p, I ordered a 42s3p, and was hoping to get the tracking # soon.

-JD
 
Xin from Victpower is trying to sort my order. Will now ship in 2 consignments which should leave today and tomorrow. Although it seemed like they were making various excuses for not dispatching the modules, it now seems like they are trying to do the right thing.
 
oatnet said:
Sutho said:
... then they told me that they want to ship me part of my order and then more when they have more bits.
Click to expand...

:shock: I hope that is only with the 7s3p, I ordered a 42s3p, and was hoping to get the tracking # soon.

-JD
Click to expand...
Look forward to your review and/or analysis JD. 8)

Sutho, did they tell you how many they would ship now? Just curious if that number was close to 22 or not? :?:

Sutho said:
Xin from Victpower is trying to sort my order. Will now ship in 2 consignments which should leave today and tomorrow.
Click to expand...

Ooops, I see we posted about the same time... so, let us know how many are shipped per "consignment" ? :?:
 
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