E-Scooters vs E-bikes

[vanilla ice]

Brenda, This little girl hauls my wife and I all over Yichang every day rain or shine..

Damn Gringo, don't you know SLA doesn't work!? :wink:

I used to be a scooter hater until very recently. You can assist kick at some decent speeds, and they're fun! You do feel less "trapped" on the bike also.

We have two of those recalled e300's, one came with the front pre-broken off. The broken one looks like it snapped off where the floor board welds to the front diagonal tube. I still need get around to repairing that one.. I'll check the serial on the other before someone gets hurt.

 

[Lock]

I used to be a scooter hater until very recently. You can assist kick at some decent speeds, and they're fun! You do feel less "trapped" on the bike also.

The International Kicksled and Scooter Association has some interesting bits...

From here:
http://www.iksaworld.com/downloads/calorie-poster-ENGLISH-a4.pdf

A kilocalorie chart:
Activity:....................... tempo:........ Kcal: Kjoules:
1 hour sit.......................... -.............. 75.... 315
1 hour walk................. 3 km per hour.... 150.... 630
1 hour walk................. 6 km per hour.... 375... 1575
1 hour bike........ tour... 20 km per hour... 600... 2520
1 hour bike........ fast... 30 km per hour... 750... 3150
1 hour footbike... tour... 18 km per hour... 820... 3444
1 hour footbike... fast... 22 km per hour... 950... 3990

Pretty clearly a footbike (non-powered) is less energy efficient than a pedal bike. Though they promote this as a benefit for folks that want to lose some weight

They also note:
The top speed on a footbike over a distance of 40 km for men is about 30 km/hr and for women about 27 km/hr. The caloric numbers
shown above are based on a footbiker who is in reasonably good condition and has good kicking technique.

and:
A scooter (footbike) is ideal for getting or staying fit. Footbikers use a wide range of muscles and the sport knows very little injuries. Also we see every day more people (also active in other sports) starting to use the footbike in their training.

Tks
LocK

 

[chvidgov.bc.ca]

I feel that my Xootr is more efficient than a bicycle. I am generally less tired when I get to my destination vs. pedalling, although I "lope along" at a slower pace.

 

[Lock]

CAUTION! STINKY VEHICLE MAKING LOUD REALLY ANNOYING BUZZING SOUND! TURN SPEAKERS DOWN OR OFF!
(Only thought this was interesting `cause this is the first vid I've seen of a Kickbike(TM) motorized, and hitting 50kph apparently):
[youtube]2Z9dkTMhEto[/youtube]


No vid of his improved version under way but the tunes/background noise are waaay better (headbangers, now crank yer volumes to 11!):
[youtube]th1KsMBny4I[/youtube]

...well, test firing here:
[youtube]E2loC_SjZ7k[/youtube]

Gotta get that sound onto a chip to play back on the scoot
Lock

 

[swbluto]

I have a standup e-scooter and an electric bike, that I've both put serious mileage on.

First thing:

On the "sidewalk", I feel e-scooters can be dangerous as I've had two crashes involving sidewalks and, specifically, the border between "sidewalk" and "grass/dirt/mud" - when that 8" front wheel hits the grass, dirt, etc. during a turn, you're going to go down. But, I'd assume a bike would also have its dangers on the sidewalk, I just probably don't get to know them since I habitually avoid it on a bike. On the pavement/street, I've had no incidents so far.

A scooter definitely feels far more comfortable than an upright bike, and I'm speaking from the viewpoint of stand-up scooters. I'm sure sitting would even be more comfortable over long distances.

A scooter is definitely more fun! Pavement surfing is just a bit more fun than biking.

On the negative, a stand-up scooter is more inefficient than a bike. I used to average 30 wh/mi. on a bike at speed, whereas I see 40wh/mi. on a scooter when standing up at the same speed. I'd assume if you sat down and leaned slightly forward like a cyclist would that the efficiency would probably be the same.

 

[whiteblade]

Came across these picture's may be this could have a hub motor on it.
At least if you ran out of battery power u can stick it on your back.

whiteblade

 

[AussieJester]

CAUTION! STINKY VEHICLE MAKING LOUD REALLY ANNOYING BUZZING SOUND! TURN SPEAKERS DOWN OR OFF!


Gotta get that sound onto a chip to play back on the scoot
Lock

...so burning small amount of fuel in a small two stroke that is actually providing practical transport is bad, but burning wasting more fuel and making even more racket with a pulse jet on a totally impractical bike is ok with you...sounds hypercritical to me...

KiM

 

[jonescg]

Maybe hipocritical, but damn a rocket bike is pretty awesome

 

[AussieJester]

Maybe hipocritical, but damn a rocket bike is pretty awesome

OH totally..although IMO not the best use of a jet engine anyone that knows
anything about nothing knowz jet engines SHOULD be used exclusively
not for air travel BUT cooling beer ...

KiM

 

[Lock]

whiteblade... that hiking scoot is very interesting! Reminds me of the kneeling chair designs, but it isn't quite that, so curious how the knees would hold up over distance...

...with a pulse jet on a totally impractical bike is ok with you...sounds hypercritical to me... KiM

Hehe...kim... chill sir... I find both of the efforts fun but silly... I'm only interested to see the stand-up platform at motorized speeds. That Kickbike design has a too-small deck for comfort and safety at speed IMHO. It's small as stock, and w/the mods in the vids looks like some space was lost too. Ya can see the rider shifting his footing underway. Pretty sure he's finding one stance uncomfortable for any length of time. Myself, I need enough room to stretch out - literally - plus the occasional passenger Others have pointed out the problems w/smaller wheels on scoots. I'm sure too small wheels will be a problem on any vehicles! My experience is only on 12.5" pneumatics which have served me well. So I don't know what diameter of wheel to really "saw things off at"... Can't ignore safety and handling but from the point of view of practicality only, the smaller the wheel diameters, the shorter the overall length of the vehicle for a given wheel base!

I love the silence of getting around under sail... I love the relative silence of EVs where transmission sounds are at least masked by urban ambient noise... So the pulse jet on a chip would be for entertainment value only. But we prolly should not be too quick to discount any tech that can chill the beers? Hehe... I'll guess in EV terms `steada pulse jets we can settle for Peltiers and good insulation...

LoCk

 

[vanilla ice]

Ok off topic a bit here.. but I've felt the same as AJ a number of times on ES.. everybody "so serious" about practical lightweight gas vehicles and putting them down. If you really want to get serious IMO, the vehicle weight issue is much more an obstacle than the type of fuel source people use. For a years there has been this disturbing trend towards larger and heavier vehicles and think it will be much more difficult to get people to use anything under a ton, than to get them to switch to electrics. Anybody traveling on a 2wheeled ANYTHING is helping with the efficiency/congestion/etc problems AFAIAC.. whether its an ebike, pedalbike, pushbike, harley, moped or motorscooter.

But back on topic, for any cyclists/ebikers out there that thinks they hate these pushbikes/escoots (based on looks maybe).. I was that way, TRY ONE. They are pretty neat. Btw we here have 2 full suspension pushies and 2 escoots.

 

[Ykick]

Sidewalker Willy with C9, 1000W 48V hub. Currently 13Ah F cell NiMh pack but will be moving to Nilar large format soon. Stock controller delivers between 1200-1400W. Range seems to be around 1 mile/50Wh under average conditions. Weighs slightly less than 55 lbs - estimated top speed around 25mph. Climbs bridge approaches reasonably well and can do steep grades with kicking.

I use to ride an eBike but I find this design much better/safer for heavy congestion commuting. Just being able to jump off and run out of the way can sometimes be a good thing. Pushing off taxis with my foot is also pretty cool in dense gridlock, LOL... One minute I'm riding in traffic keeping up with cars/trucks and the next I can be walking on the sidewalk like somebody with a shopping cart or stroller. No gears, chains or mechanical complications.

Large diameter wheels are a must - those little Gooped wheels are too easily swallowed by potholes. Don't ask me how I know...

Currently doing a 26" City Cruiser version. Was going to do a Kickbike with 18" cast rear wheel C9 until I learned Kickbike uses 65mm rear hub.

 

[Lock]

Ykick... I don't know watt to say but YAY!

Interested to hear you are running Nilar... I wonder if you are living w/cold winter conditions? And how the NiMH behaves... balancing issues? I was in a conversation on LinkedIn recently and a Nilar Exec spoke up and I asked him about NiMh and why it didn't seem to be a force any more w/the current and promised range of hybrid cars w/no reply... Sounds like you are happy w/your Nilars? How many cycles so far?

I have spent so much time reading up on LiFePO4 I have forgotten NiMH!

Yer right about moving/mixing between wheeled traffic and pedestrians on the foot bike! In my experience anyway... Much different experience than on a pedal bike... Is your bike legal where you are?
Lock

 

[Ykick]

Ykick... I don't know watt to say but YAY!

Interested to hear you are running Nilar... I wonder if you are living w/cold winter conditions? And how the NiMH behaves... balancing issues? I was in a conversation on LinkedIn recently and a Nilar Exec spoke up and I asked him about NiMh and why it didn't seem to be a force any more w/the current and promised range of hybrid cars w/no reply... Sounds like you are happy w/your Nilars? How many cycles so far?

I have spent so much time reading up on LiFePO4 I have forgotten NiMH!

Yer right about moving/mixing between wheeled traffic and pedestrians on the foot bike! In my experience anyway... Much different experience than on a pedal bike... Is your bike legal where you are?
Lock

I haven't used Nilar yet - the order is in and I'm looking forward to series of tests and evaluations with the modules. Will perhaps start a thread about that?

'Sorry, I thought I mentioned that I'm currently running an old F cell NiMh pack? They're okay and balance isn't too much trouble with careful charging. The main trouble with F cell pack is that exceeding 1C drain is not recommended. I hit bursts of 2C and cruise roughly in between that range and experience onset of LVCO. Of course, the F cell pack is several years old and had been somewhat abused so I'm looking forward to the fresh Nilar packs soon!

I jumped past NiMh rather quickly over the years but I'm glad I stopped and took a closer look at Nilar. Nilar seems to be a much more refined package than duct-tape lifepo4 packs. Nothing wrong with that if done properly and some of those prismatic packs are very close to prime time IMO. But needing 48V 10Ah 2-3C discharge, I went the Nilar path. Only time will tell?

Temps with the F cell NiMh pack aren't much issue. I've only ridden in 20-40F temps so far and start-out warmed from the charger. The cells seem to generate enough heat during my ride to operate normally.

F cell self-discharge during storage is very noticeable. If I don't use these F cells daily they quickly lose capacity and take a cycle or two to get back to their usual range. More of a bummer than anything else I've yet to encounter with NiMh chemistry. It will be interesting to learn how Nilar behaves compared to my limited experience with this particular F cell packs?

Running 48V I doubt it's legal anywhere? Who really knows though? Some parts of Europe adult kick scooters are considered pedestrians? Add a bicycle motor, who knows what a Judge may rule? I don't do stupid stuff and most cops seem okay to let a sleeping dog lay. Especially, in this day and age of alternative energy initiatives.

It saves me enough commute money that I started a legal savings fund to pay fines and/or legal fees if I ever need it. I've ridden other powered adult kick scooters (who shall remain nameless) for more than 4 years and haven't need my lawyer yet.

eBikes are cool too but I'm totally sold on the kick scooter arrangement and love the ease of mobility while riding in highly congested areas. I can react a lot quicker to danger standing on a platform compared to straddling a bike frame. My butt doesn't hurt as much either.

Watt is a good thing my friend - all the best to you and the ES community!

 

[johnrobholmes]

One thing that I can certainly see as an advantage of a kick bike- less parts and less space! Makes me ponder whether I should have one in the stable.

 

[Lock]

Yah, definitely fewer moving bits should be better in terms of reliability... I have plans for a hinge for mine so it can fold (up, not down) but that's not necessary... So basically just the wheels that move. Plus the mechanical brake bits and the accelerator and other switches and push buttons, but that's it.

michaelplogue had an "interesting" experience on his Diggler scooter:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=6972&p=223594#p223594
"...Before things got cold here, I was still riding my Diggler scoot, and have come to the conclusion that two-wheeler's here in Ankara are pretty dangerous. The roads here are very slick - even when bone dry. Had an accident a while back when coming around a corner - at slow speed. Just touched the throttle and the scooter spun out from underneath me. Banged up my shoulder pretty bad - helmet saved my head from a bad knock."

Pics etc of his scoot here:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=11227&p=171854

Watt I didn't ask Michael at the time was whether he felt the fall was due to the design of the vehicle... whether if he had been astride a pedal bike if things might have happened differently... He did say he felt that *any* two-wheeler would be risky because of the road conditions where he is at the moment. So perhaps the scoot design was not to blame. Or had he been on a pedal bike the accident might have been worse, or not as bad. Just don't know.

Lock

 

[vanilla ice]

Large diameter wheels are a must

Yea the small wheels aren't so hot. Besides the pothole thing, the bad efficiency and less smooth ride suck. Would love to try a large wheeler like yours some time, looks nice!

 

[swbluto]

Large diameter wheels are a must

Yea the small wheels aren't so hot. Besides the pothole thing, the bad efficiency and less smooth ride suck. Would love to try a large wheeler like yours some time, looks nice!

I would agree if space constraints aren't of concern. For those that want to take it aboard public transport or whatever, smaller seems to be "better" in my mind as space is limited aboard cramped buses, but if you can get a diggler or similar that has the same wheelbase as a bike and a high enough clearance, it might be possible to use the bike rack. I'd expect bias, though.

I haven't had issues with pot-holes, but that could be because my area isn't that holey (Or I take the sidewalk in holey areas). It just seems to have line depressions every 70 feet or so that make you go *bump*, *bump*, *bump* on typical neighborhood roads.

 

[Lock]

...take it aboard public transport or whatever...

Try grocery shopping. I used to wheel the scoot indoors and place two of the plastic hand shopping baskets on the deck and wheel the scoot up/down the aisles... I had to convince two managers that it was smaller than a shopping cart and has better brakes, that I wasn't some youngerster lookin' to motor around their store and that I wasn't taking up one of their in-demand free car park spaces, but it was waaaay handier to do this rather than have to lock a bike up outside then have to transfer the groceries from shopping cart to bike baskets/wattever...
I believe my personal best was motoring home w/2 50lb bags of dogfood on the deck under my feet plus eight bags of groceries slung on the handlebars
:lol:
Lock

 

[Ykick]

Yah, definitely fewer moving bits should be better in terms of reliability... I have plans for a hinge for mine so it can fold (up, not down) but that's not necessary... So basically just the wheels that move. Plus the mechanical brake bits and the accelerator and other switches and push buttons, but that's it.

michaelplogue had an "interesting" experience on his Diggler scooter:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=6972&p=223594#p223594
"...Before things got cold here, I was still riding my Diggler scoot, and have come to the conclusion that two-wheeler's here in Ankara are pretty dangerous. The roads here are very slick - even when bone dry. Had an accident a while back when coming around a corner - at slow speed. Just touched the throttle and the scooter spun out from underneath me. Banged up my shoulder pretty bad - helmet saved my head from a bad knock."

Pics etc of his scoot here:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=11227&p=171854

Watt I didn't ask Michael at the time was whether he felt the fall was due to the design of the vehicle... whether if he had been astride a pedal bike if things might have happened differently... He did say he felt that *any* two-wheeler would be risky because of the road conditions where he is at the moment. So perhaps the scoot design was not to blame. Or had he been on a pedal bike the accident might have been worse, or not as bad. Just don't know.

Lock

Higher average speed, falls/tumbles starting from a greater height - helmet is another must and good place to hang a tail light. I've been on some fresh light snow and didn't feel any less stable. Was being very careful and always aware of the limits to traction.

"...two-wheeler's here in Ankara are pretty dangerous."

I think he's saying any two-wheeler? There's a quickness to the steering when compared to bicycles and it's always a 2 hand affair for me. The Willy steering slowed down quite a bit when I narrowed the handlebars to fit through turnstiles. Now I can lift a hand every once in a while if I want but the best bet is both hands on the grips at all times.

Different geometry could be applied to help further slow steering down? Rake, trail adjustments? Steering dampener, perhaps? I'm a very experienced street rider and usually stay out of trouble but throttle/brake at the wrong time on the wrong surface - bad things do happen.

The simplicity is amazing! No chains, gears, sprockets, brushes, pedals, etc. The C9 also rolls very nicely when not under power. Super quiet too and I like how it's possible to feel approaching LVCO - dunno if that was intentional or accident but works really well letting me know through motor pulses that we're sagging to around 42.5V.

Those Digglers are sweet and I might try one of them someday? Sidewalker is a nice little box-bike and claimed cro-moly steel. There's a little flexing which offers a comfortable ride but it seems designed for that - doesn't show any signs of stress during the 1st 100 miles. Gotta keep an eye on this experimental stuff though!

 

[Lock]

Nice to hear about the Nine Continents motor... ebikes.ca offers three flavours:
http://www.ebikes.ca/store/store_nc.php
"Currently, the motor kit is available as a front or rear hub with two winding types, a fast 2806 version for 20" wheels, and a slightly slower 2807 turn model for 26" and 700c hubs. At 36V, both setups will have no problem maintaining the legal limit of 32 kph while going up moderate hills, and can go faster than this on the flats. As well, we have a small number of the higher RPM 2806 windings available prelaced in 26" rims for those who want a faster speed. The hubs have been added to our motor simulator for complete performance details."
"5 turn winding
We have a limited number of even faster speed 2805 hub motors available in 20 inch rims for those customers who want to achieve greater speed without going to a 48V battery pack. Please email us for ordering these kits."

Curious which winding you went with please? I actually have a very old Crystalyte 16" brushed 600W cast hub motor to play with. Gonna put it up front to remove any possibility of wheelies...

Different geometry could be applied to help further slow steering down? Rake, trail adjustments? Steering dampener, perhaps?

I have found this also with the Currie built scooters... always wondered whether a diff geometry would help... For now I am just planning to copy the geometry from a good folding bike design.
Tks
Lock

 

[Ykick]

Nice to hear about the Nine Continents motor... ebikes.ca offers three flavours:
http://www.ebikes.ca/store/store_nc.php
"Currently, the motor kit is available as a front or rear hub with two winding types, a fast 2806 version for 20" wheels, and a slightly slower 2807 turn model for 26" and 700c hubs. At 36V, both setups will have no problem maintaining the legal limit of 32 kph while going up moderate hills, and can go faster than this on the flats. As well, we have a small number of the higher RPM 2806 windings available prelaced in 26" rims for those who want a faster speed. The hubs have been added to our motor simulator for complete performance details."
"5 turn winding
We have a limited number of even faster speed 2805 hub motors available in 20 inch rims for those customers who want to achieve greater speed without going to a 48V battery pack. Please email us for ordering these kits."

Curious which winding you went with please? I actually have a very old Crystalyte 16" brushed 600W cast hub motor to play with. Gonna put it up front to remove any possibility of wheelies...

Different geometry could be applied to help further slow steering down? Rake, trail adjustments? Steering dampener, perhaps?

I have found this also with the Currie built scooters... always wondered whether a diff geometry would help... For now I am just planning to copy the geometry from a good folding bike design.
Tks
Lock

Sorry, dunno what motor winding I got. Bought direct from Conhismotor and my rep didn't seem to understand the question so I have no idea. I decided not to worry much about that because my opinion has been formed - winding count isn't that important except for overvolting applications. They knew it was going into a 20" wheel and printing on the motor indicates 48V 1000W. It's a nice running motor - time will tell how it behaves when summer arrives but in this weather it barely feels warm to touch.

That backpack scooter could have some potential, eh? I've been toying with the idea of adding sturdy rear pegs to achieve a somewhat prone position. Reducing wind resistance under certain conditions and I'm sure you've learned standing straight up produces very poor aerodynamics. Longer commutes on open roads - sorta laying down could save a ton of power from the batteries? That would be my plan for an open-road scooter of this nature. That backpacker thing seems to already be headed in that direction?

I was bummed to learn that kickbike used 65mm rear hub - I really wanted to try a cast 18" motor wheel with 28" front. Oh well, maybe I'll someday build a frame from scratch that incorporates some of the things I've found important to me?

 

[Lock]

That backpack scooter could have some potential, eh? I've been toying with the idea of adding sturdy rear pegs to achieve a somewhat prone position. Reducing wind resistance under certain conditions and I'm sure you've learned standing straight up produces very poor aerodynamics.

Oh yah... I can still drive the Currie scoots sitting down on the deck. A really strong headwind can almost bring the 400W vehicle to a standstill, and sitting down dramatically speeds up the scoot again. The first time I tried this was my first realization about how strong aero drag really is!

Longer commutes on open roads - sorta laying down could save a ton of power from the batteries? That would be my plan for an open-road scooter of this nature. That backpacker thing seems to already be headed in that direction?

Had to go have a closer look:
http://bergmoench.koga.com/En/Default.aspx

...turns out the larger front wheel and smaller back wheel etc are all about going down hill mostly! Mountains, really... So it's designed to help you remain more upright actually, when going downhill...

I was bummed to learn that kickbike used 65mm rear hub - I really wanted to try a cast 18" motor wheel with 28" front. Oh well, maybe I'll someday build a frame from scratch that incorporates some of the things I've found important to me?

That's my plan. I want a "frame" that's roto- or injection-molded w/access to the inside for cargo steada having to hang stuff off the bars. For now though just seven thin uprights like the tentpoles of a north american teepee, covered with canvas and handlebars welded on near the apex... Hub peeks out the bottom. Deck folds up to close/seal the cargo access hole, folds down and locks for travel. Keepin' the batts (weight of 16 10Ah LiFePO4 cells) in the deck. Taking the underdeck road clearance from the four inches I am familiar with down to three inches - I believe your scoot is even less road clearance than this?

Lock

 

[Lock]

Thought this design of scooter interesting, from the Euro "trottinette" style of downhill (down mountains) scootering:
(may want to turn speakers down. Headbanger? ...crank volume to eleven)
[youtube]aX-tkglxkPk[/youtube]



From this company:
http://www.biboard-france.com/

This design also enables my other fav form of power-assist, though I never got any good at it as I only tried this w/Dobermans and they would go like stink but only to the next hydro pole. Or at any scent of beaver or muscrat immediately move to "off-road" mode and quite uncontrollable:
[youtube]SYy0R_7w2Rg[/youtube]

Getting OT, but the company also makes a snow dirtbike... a gasser, but no reason why this couldn't be electrified:
[youtube]RkGcxfnN2vg[/youtube]
8)
tks
Lock

 

[Ykick]

Those are cool variations Lock - I'm pretty happy with Sidewalker frames. I got hold of a Kickbike and it's just too dang low to the ground and would require major retrofit to equip with power. So, I'm doing another Sidewalker with 26" wheels this go around.

I have those Nilar batteries running on my 20" and they're nice. I haven't left them in the cold for long but so far, every claim regarding output appears to be accurate. 20-30A no problem. I'll try to put a thread in the battery forum and discuss further if anybody's interested?