Hubmonster 94% efficient 7kw NO LONGER FOR SALE

[John in CR]

Flats are not screwed up on motors with the flats on different planes. I have motors from 2 different manufacturers with axles that way, and it's intentional. Earlier in the thread I warned about it wrt making dropouts in advance. Nuts or drill bits aren't useful to check if planes separated by an object are on exactly the same plane or are off a few degrees. Simply extend the 2 planes beyond the object and see if the extensions are parallel.

John

 

[gensem]

HOw are you terminating your controller and the motor? I was thinking of making a plastic plate with 6 holes that mounts off the swingarm.. wtih a channel for each corresponding phase connection... then using it to keep wires organized and bolted down well. I think I'm going to stay away from solder and HK connectors for this job. Thinking crimped lugs with no mating connections. pure clamping. difficult for people to tinker with.

thoughts?

I think I ll just weld 1meter of 8awg wires to the phase wires and 24awg to the sensor wires and wrap all the cables using black heat shrinking tube twice. At the controller I ll probably use XT150 connectors.
Btw the phase wires are a little thinner, I just noticed they get a second insulation layer... near the axle they are about 4mm thick and arent color coded.

 

[gensem]

Gensem,

While yours is still not mounted. Can you tell if the axle flats are on the same plane? That would be good to know if they are, because then some can proceed with some aspects of their build without having their motor in hand. I could pop mine off, but since I hit the brake side with a grinder to force fit it on SuperV's non-parallel dropouts, I wouldn't be able to tell with certainty.

My caliper is only 15cm, so I could not use it.
Using a ruler it looks like both flats are 189mm from the ground, but they are not plane... I just tested with level (dont know the tool name in english) and they are off by some degrees.

I was thinking why would they make the axle flats this way? Maybe the axle is less prone to fail when the flat are not in the same angle...

 

[gensem]

That paint job is top notch. Whats the color code and how did you painted it?

I wouldnt say top notch... but the wheel is really looking good.
I used spray paint, to be truth i just asked for matte black so i dont know the color number. The can says premium matte black spray 54001.

Used some 400 sandingpaper to get most of the older pain off, cleaned it up real good and applied two layers of paint, letting it rest quite awhile inbetween.

 

[John in CR]

Gensem,

While yours is still not mounted. Can you tell if the axle flats are on the same plane? That would be good to know if they are, because then some can proceed with some aspects of their build without having their motor in hand. I could pop mine off, but since I hit the brake side with a grinder to force fit it on SuperV's non-parallel dropouts, I wouldn't be able to tell with certainty.

My caliper is only 15cm, so I could not use it.
Using a ruler it looks like both flats are 189mm from the ground, but they are not plane... I just tested with level (dont know the tool name in english) and they are off by some degrees.

I was thinking why would they make the axle flats this way? Maybe the axle is less prone to fail when the flat are not in the same angle...

Thanks for confirming it. The first time I ran across it was when I made some nice fat clamping dropouts to weld to the underside of the swingarm. The plan was clamp them on the motor, get the wheel aligned with the frame, tack weld, check alignment and weld. I did a test fitting and the dropouts didn't mate flat with the swingarm, not even close. Once I realize the flats are different I think, "crap, the machinist who made this axle had a few too many beers the night before. That's ok, I've got 5 so I'll grab another motor and put it on." . I get the other motor and when it doesn't fit I check the other 2, since one was on my cargo bike. Not only were they off plane, but all identical, so it wasn't a defect. Then I remember the trouble I had getting motors on and off the 2 bikes I used them on. I thought it was inaccuracies on my end.

If figure that it must be something about making a tighter fit due to tolerances in the dropouts, or to make them less likely to fall off, because they are harder to get off the deeper the dropout. The only other thing I've come up with is that with dropouts cut to an angle too, not only are the above true, but it gives you a means of changing vertical alignment with horizontal dropouts. These were all scooter/emoto hubbies, so no chains to worry about in their design use, and I haven't seen any that use a mounting more like a motorcycle.

Now I'm curious and will try to find out, because there must be a valid reason.

John

 

[hillzofvalp]

It'd be nice if you could get an actual measurement. The only way to me I would be able to jnsatll this motor is if one of the clamping dropouts lower jaw was completely removable.

 

[John in CR]

It'd be nice if you could get an actual measurement. The only way to me I would be able to jnsatll this motor is if one of the clamping dropouts lower jaw was completely removable.

It'd be nice if I had a big suitcase full of $100 bills too....actually 2 so they're easier to carry as a balanced load 8) . If it was too easy then everyone would do it, and too many stupid people (or is that now politically incorrect too) would get killed.

If I get an answer for why, then the same person should know the angle. The issue is I don't think any of the design work or R&D was/is done in China. That would explain why I haven't gotten technical drawings and build details despite asking. They've said the technical guys don't speak english, but I get the impression that non-administration people are the "technical guys" like the ones who pulled the stators and cut the rims off of the Mid-Monsters I have in route. To assemble parts doesn't require design knowledge. I'm doing other business with someone who had actually been to the factory, so I know they do make their own motors and that I'm not dealing with some middleman, which would also explain a lack of technical info.

We're doing enough volume and buying all those damaged rim motors helped too, that they're finally showing responsiveness to my repeated requests to discuss design changes as part of forward looking planning. I'm sure it also helps that someone has interest in the motor that's out of production for which they have parts on the shelves collecting dust, along with the fact that I'm running a stock stock at almost 16kw peak without heat or controller problems.

John

 

[Harold in CR]

John, just let the info out and the guys doing the install will have to pay closer attention to your instructions. I had NO problem mounting mine. I understood exactly what you were saying.

The only thing is, IF the installer cuts or files those flat surfaces BACKWARDS, on their dropouts, it won't fit. :lol: 8)

 

[John in CR]

It'd be nice if you could get an actual measurement. The only way to me I would be able to jnsatll this motor is if one of the clamping dropouts lower jaw was completely removable.

A 2 piece clamping dropout would make it easiest to get a motor off, but you still need to know the relative angle of the flats to make that ahead. I'm sure just secured by bolts is fine, but I'm lax about inspections and regular maintenance, so for me it's better to have a slotted clamping dropout. Then even without the bolt it's not spinning. With the bolt inserted from the top, even if the nut fell off, the bolt would stay in place so the motor couldn't fall off. That means I'm 100% safe as long as the weld is good enough to hold the fabricated dropout on the bike. If something gets loose, I use regen and will hear the click or squeak of any shift in the axle.

The only other safety feature I've come up with is a ring that fits over the largest part of the axle and has a tab or flange to bolt it to the bike. This would go on the axle first. It would lend some extra support of the axle, but the primary purpose would be in case fatigue caused an axle to fail like on NeilP's X5. Any shear would occur at the dropout, so the ring would keep the wheel on the bike. I don't think it's any real risk with these 25mm axles, but for those going to extreme power with hard hitting regen and/or going for air. I go off small curbs regularly and used to do it while accelerating, and after hearing some noise from the dropout area and almost flipping a couple of times I thought about the impact stresses the axle must see when a powered wheel hits slower pavement. I just let off the throttle now.

John

 

[John in CR]

John, just let the info out and the guys doing the install will have to pay closer attention to your instructions. I had NO problem mounting mine. I understood exactly what you were saying.

The only thing is, IF the installer cuts or files those flat surfaces BACKWARDS, on their dropouts, it won't fit. :lol: 8)

I understand, but a lot of the guys like their detail vs guys like you and I who prefer to blow and go and problem solve on the fly.

If your motor is on, does that mean your battery is ready and all you're missing is a controller? We need to get you rolling.

 

[Harold in CR]

Motor has been mounted for a few months

Waiting for that damn crate. My Sawmill buddy nearly wrecked going down the mountain, near Grecia, with a BIG load of lumber, and asked me to source parts for his truck in USA. Ed has them all ready, crate is packed, and SHOULD be picked up today or tomorrow.

It has stuff for several of my projects, including our batteries. I'm thinking start out with the 48V controller I already have, ASAP, just to test out the frame and geometry. Money is super tight. Put up a website and trying to get hits-sales from that, with the wood I have. Costa Rica Craft Wood dot com. :lol:

I was just referring to all the times you have said the same thing over and over and over :lol:

I need to take a break when the crate gets here, and spend a night at your place to view all the new goodies :lol:

 

[agniusm]

I will have to get my finances right for this motor cause it looks like my HS3540 will be way too soft for my cargo bike, more like cargo tank. Getting the frame together and it looks big, will need that motor crying:

 

[jansevr]

i hope this isn't too far off topic. i plan and building up a turner dhr this summer. i haven't completely decided on the components yet but have been strongly leaning towards this motor. I'm very excited to see the other bikes using this motor and im sure that will help decide for me. however i did have a couple questions in the meantime. what controllers are being used/recommended. i would like to run 100v and around 100a for about 10kw. from what i understand, this should be no problem for the motor? granted i don't mean 10kw continuous. speaking of continuous power though, what is a safe estimate? is 4-6kw for about 20-30 minutes possible?

also here are some pictures of the bike and renders of a possible configuration (with the beginning stages of a some aerodynamics). the battery cases shown are the size of a pelican case, holding 2 6s 5000mah each for a total of 20ah at 100v. that should be just about enough for 4kw for 30 minutes straight =)

 

[John in CR]

Looks like a job for a mid-drive to me. The empty "cargo tank" is just a heavy bike, but with a full load it will be more like a loaded dump truck, so while a sports car engine is fine you still need the gearing of a tank's transmission. Hubmonster has great power, but she likes to fly. That why I get to 105kph on 74V.

Before bringing it up, no, using a lower voltage isn't a solution. Lower gearing is. If a really small wheel is acceptable then doing up a custom rim could work, but that lacks flexibility. Mid-drive gives you the flexibility of changing sprockets for different gearing, and you can even go to higher voltage for getting more extreme with power.

If the terrain is very flat, then a stock in wheel set up can work, but for all up loads exceeding say 250kg, you'll want to restrict current to reduce unnecessary heat during much longer acceleration times than when the load is light, or simply go easy on the throttle.

John

 

[EvoBikeShop]

Hmmmmm, makes me want to build a drag bike! Will be contacting you after my first build is done. Is there a way to retain pedal drive? Just for "legal"reasons.

EBS

 

[hillzofvalp]

jansevr: what program did you use and how long did it take to make that model? I use catia.. but I have never been able to make any cool surfaces or anything very quickly because it's so counterintuitive of a program.

Also, remember that this motor is in the ball park of 190mm wide from axle shoulder to shoulder.. and most mountain bikes are 135mm.

Cool model. With that light of a bike I wouldn't worry so much about aero unless you're absolutely crazy or trying to do 20Wh/mile at high speed.

 

[jansevr]

I used sketchup for modeling (and im still learning vray and lighting for rendering). if youve never used sketchup it it is very intuitive/easy to learn. i modeled a more simple geometry for the aero and then used a program called subdivide and smooth which further divides the polygons. the model is a combination of bits from other projects and has been a work in progress (and still is). i might estimate 10 hours to model? plus another hour or so messing around with rendering/materials/lighting. and a few hours to render...ahh i need a better computer, the laptop is no good for cad! haha anyways...

i plan on addressing the dropout issue as well, the model isn't exact dimensions right now, but the extension to the rear arm will also be wider. the aero is just something ive always wanted to do...i know it will be much further down the road, definitely after my next build. it is just something i have always wanted to have the experience of building and using. the advantages of a well made and functioning aero would be awesome, especially with this motor!

 

[John in CR]

Jansevr,

Your street cruiser by extending the swing arm looks really interesting. The factory controllers for this motor are mostly set for 100A and primarily 60V and 72V packs. I have little doubt on those heavy scooters that the motors draw 6-7kw essentially continuously. With a much lighter load I see no reason to stay so conservative. I run 210A peak with a 74V pack and I regularly see 9-10kw on long uphill stretches. That's pushing an all up load of almost 400lbs. With a significantly lighter load you'll have a hard time creating enough load to require that kind of power draw for anything even remotely continuous. Steep hills won't do it, because you'll have to slow down for curves. Maybe sitting upright taking the full wind a lighter person could, but the motor will be turning plenty high enough rpms to be well into the prime efficiency range.

My reservations about your plan are:
1. 100A limit- 50A from each controller is too low. Why settle for high power scooter type performance? I'd only recommend staying that low with a 300lb bike. 80A per controller, 160A is much better.
2. 100V- Do you really want to live near the component limits of controllers and have a 75mph or so top speed? At high power, you definitely want regen braking in order to avoid heavy moto brakes. The controllers we have regen up to about 84V.
3. I think you may be going too long on your swingarm extension unless you don't have a problem with a straight line road rocket that doesn't handle bumps very well. 40lb+ along with it looks like some battery too, is a lot of unsprung weight to control on such a long lever.

With some aero treatment, if you're after a 75-80mph top speed bike, then more power to you. I just want to be sure you understand what you're getting into.

Regarding controllers, I'm the only one running one of these so far. I've been using a pair of 18fet controllers, pushing 115A peak through one and 95A peak thru the other....I missed on my shunt mods. They run a little warmer than I like, but since July no problems. We offer a pair of 24 fet controllers with irfb4110 mosfets, that come set for 80A each, 160A total. While they'll take 100V fresh off the charger, we recommend more conservative voltage. We can do the pair of controllers for under $300 total plus shipping, so compared to other options, this leaves more than enough room in the budget to include a CA3 and still save money.

John

 

[John in CR]

Hmmmmm, makes me want to build a drag bike! Will be contacting you after my first build is done. Is there a way to retain pedal drive? Just for "legal"reasons.
EBS

Regarding pedals, anything is possible, with the easiest being to hack up a rear bicycle hub for the freewheel threading and attaching it to one of the covers. The bigger issue is finding a very quiet one, because with this near silent motor, the clicking of a FW will sound amplified. You'll probably want to mod the shell width for a proper chain alignment unless you go the jackshaft route, which isn't a bad idea to isolate you from the motor by 2 FW's, so there's no way a FW failure can suddenly give the pedals and motor a fixed connection.

 

[jansevr]

you're right about the controllers and the amp limit. stupid me, didn't realize 100amp = 50 amp per controller =P. once i get a motor like this i will definitely want to have to capability of running 160amp+. i didnt realize you could get 24fet 4110 for $150 each!? this sounds most excellent!

as far as far as the swing arm, i understand where you are coming from. right now i have 2 controllers in the arm, so not too much more weight. the length might be a bit much though, i will most likely not extend it that for. right now my wheelbase is at 1.5m. do you find 1.4m to be fairly sufficient? would the additional length really be that much of a concern or would a higher compression spring solve any problems

as i was saying before, aero would be ideal but wouldn't be done for quite some time. with a motor running power like this and running at highway speeds how can you not want to address aero? im sure the batteries would greatly appreciate it, if not the motor and controllers a little bit as well =). my main concern with the aero is the front, and front wheel specifically. making a fairing that allows the wheel to function properly has been a bit of a problem. i seem to cut out too much in the front, at least towards the bottom. im hoping the nose will work enough to push the air mainly off to the sides and over the top. what do you guys think/how much of an advantage do you see from a fairing like this/what could be changed/done better.

 

[xenodius]

Hmmmmm, makes me want to build a drag bike! Will be contacting you after my first build is done. Is there a way to retain pedal drive? Just for "legal"reasons.
EBS

Regarding pedals, anything is possible, with the easiest being to hack up a rear bicycle hub for the freewheel threading and attaching it to one of the covers. The bigger issue is finding a very quiet one, because with this near silent motor, the clicking of a FW will sound amplified. You'll probably want to mod the shell width for a proper chain alignment unless you go the jackshaft route, which isn't a bad idea to isolate you from the motor by 2 FW's, so there's no way a FW failure can suddenly give the pedals and motor a fixed connection.

My strictly non-electric bicycle has a Formula DC19/25 hub with an SRAM PG950 cassette. If there's one thing I can say about that bike, it's that it freewheels quieter than any bike I've ever seen or ridden. I have to be in a quiet room and near the hub to hear it ratchet. There may be quieter hubs out there, but that one does a pretty good job.

One of the reasons that I am gravitating toward an electric pedal "drivetrain" for my build is that, besides the maintenance-free design and elimination of gearing issues, it would allow me to pedal at a complete stop, which would look ridiculous but actually be useful as I spend easily 1/3rd of my time at stops. I don't like cooling down between stretches of road. The downside, of course, is weight. I estimate at least 10 pounds extra for an electric drivetrain, perhaps up to 15. I think it'd be fairly easy to set up with a GNG kit.

 

[John in CR]

What you need is a little 6fet sensorless controller that has regen braking. Then you can easily get it down to a few pounds by using a little RC motor as the generator in your "electronic chain" as I like to refer to the rig you're after.

What I want to do is pedal my ass off while stopped, and then as the light changes, stop pedaling and hit the throttle to really throw onlookers for a loop.

 

[John in CR]

Jansevr,

You know more about shocks that I do, so I'm sure it can be worlds better than mine. The wheelbase on mine seems fine. My only real issue it that it's too sensitive at high speed, and I just need to lift the front with a larger tire and/or my 888 forks to cure that.

 

[xenodius]

What you need is a little 6fet sensorless controller that has regen braking. Then you can easily get it down to a few pounds by using a little RC motor as the generator in your "electronic chain" as I like to refer to the rig you're after.

What I want to do is pedal my ass off while stopped, and then as the light changes, stop pedaling and hit the throttle to really throw onlookers for a loop.

Hmm, an RC motor would actually be perfect for that, I don't know why I didn't think of it before. That would be hilarious to pull something like that John =D It's pretty much exactly what I imagine doing.

I still figure that components alone may cost nearly $4,000... most of which would be cells. I tell myself I should consider lipo for the short run, then I realize I may have to get all new chargers and BMS's if I switch chemistry. Maybe I should sell our car first Who knows, with any luck my wife and I will get a job soon after we move, and we'll have a garage that I can work in, and none of that will be a problem... 8) I seem to be able to scrounge up money for other things pretty easily, though. Like this brand new laptop... Maybe I need to set up an EV fund, and just put large chunks into it every once in a while!

Any report on the rated efficiency of the Midmonster?

 

[gensem]

130/70 tire