is this good news? (Graphene battery)

So its been confirmed it just lipo with a little graphite? I got half way through the RC guys thread where they were still musing over whether it is or isn't.
 
You guys don't do much reading about whats in your lithium cells do you?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphite ctrl+f "lithium-ion"
As an example, a lithium-ion battery in a fully electric Nissan Leaf contains nearly 40 kg of graphite.
To put it simply there is a lot of graphite in every lithium-ion cell.

I don't really like using the ABC news website for facts but they have got some well organized chunks of words to help you guys understand..
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-01-13/lithium-graphite-the-new-mining-superstars-potash-ready-to-shine/7081388
"Graphene is a single-atom thick layer of graphite,"
Or
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphene ctrl+f "graphite" which is mentioned 84 times on that page
I don't want to insult you guys but you obviously don't like reading so here is a picture of graphene wikipage and highlighted by ctrl+f .. this is a small snap shot of the entire page of how many times its mentioned to come from graphite..
Screenshot 2016-02-09 00.26.46.png

Basically you can't build a lithium-ion battery cell with graphite in it with out accidentally causing a tiny bit of uselessly formed graphene to be created..

Geim and Novoselov initially used adhesive tape to pull graphene sheets away from graphite. Achieving single layers typically requires multiple exfoliation steps. After exfoliation the flakes are deposited on a silicon wafer. Crystallites larger than 1 mm and visible to the naked eye can be obtained
lossy-page1-220px-Nobelpriset_i_fysik_2010.tif.jpg

Why are HK doing this? I would say they are starting to worry a little bit about battery sales as some people have obviously learnt how to use google and do math and found out that you can build battery packs cheaper and lighter out of 18650 cells then with HK stuff..

Tesla are also in envy of HKs business model of selling the hardware at cost and getting you addicted to battery packs thats why Tesla are building the gigafactory and giving away their patents
http://www.wired.com/2014/06/tesla-just-gave-all-its-patents-away-to-competitors/..
 
I like reading just fine, but time is limited. To date I've Ben reading about people who actually have them are testing, real world experience rather than news articles about different chemistries or Wikipedia. ..

I'm trying to work out the physical difference between regular lipo and these "graphene" batteries other than hype or assumption. I'll keep reading the rc forum, someone will have gotten curious enough to disassemble one at some point.

I suspect it will just be a variant of lipo just with more graphite or graphite used in a different manner.
 
I like it a lot. Not because I trust HK's rating and they do have kind of a reputation for over selling battery specs. But if they start pushing these hard, other will feel the need to follow. Pretty soon there are 18650 Graphene batteries with twice the discharge of today. Not to mention what that might do to the prices of todays top 18650 cells. I for sure would be happy to see a 50% price drop on quality cells. Then we can go bigger and wilder yet stay safe :twisted:

For sure will keep my eyes on this on how other companies react.
 
Lurkin said:
I'm trying to work out the physical difference between regular lipo and these "graphene" batteries other than hype or assumption. I'll keep reading the rc forum, someone will have gotten curious enough to disassemble one at some point.

I suspect it will just be a variant of lipo just with more graphite or graphite used in a different manner.
Click to expand...
From a comment under the video of createthis:

"Calling these LiPo's 'graphene batteries' is a complete misnomer. They are Lithium Polymer batteries with the graphene used to pass conducted electricity from the cells. We're still a long way from GRAPHENE batteries."
 
Depends what you classify as a graphene battery. From what I can work out from the rc forums it's just modified anode? Otherwise just a lipo batt. However haven't found anyone who has actually taken one apart so it's hard to know what's assumption and what's real.

Either way they are reporting higher discharge and cycle life at high discharge. No one's discussed whether it affects safety other than lower operating temps when under high strain. So it seems they are an improved lipo battery, not much to see there.
 
Discharge rate has been tested extensively on rcgroup, quite a few people using them now.

I'm more interested in what the actual difference actually is.
 
Haven't tried one yet, and with the number of still good packs I have in my fridge, I doubt I will for years, but I have been reading the reviews on RCgroups that someone linked in page 1, and the experts there seem really impressed with them, so I'm willing to go with the hype. HK may exaggerate, but they exaggerate consistently, so you still know roughly what you're getting.

As to the semantics of whether it's a graphene battery or not, I think people might be getting too hung up about it. Pretty much every variant of lithium we've had is just a modification of the anode. I've seen batteries that claim to be lithium titanate, even though the anode is still carbon (graphite?) coated with lithium titanate, rather than pure lithium titanate. The voltage was still 4.2v per cell instead of 2.4v per cell, which is a dead give away, but people claimed it did allow for faster charge and discharge. Even the manufacturer claimed it only had 3000 cycle life instead of the 10-20k cycles true lithium titanate batteries have.

I think it's a bit of deceptive advertising to call it a graphene battery, or a titanate battery rather than something else like a graphene enhanced, or titanate enhanced battery, but at the end of the day, if it's still a better battery, and the claims are realistic, I can put up with marketing bullshit.
 
I agree its an exciting development either way, because there is definite benefits over ordinary Lipo.

But it's important to understand the difference because if it's unclear what the difference is, there's no understanding to compare to another battery or version, graphene or not.
 
Lurkin said:
I agree its an exciting development either way, because there is definite benefits over ordinary Lipo.

But it's important to understand the difference because if it's unclear what the difference is, there's no understanding to compare to another battery or version, graphene or not.
Click to expand...

Sure. Ideally marketers would be totally honest. But the phrase "Caveat Emptor" has survived two and a half millennia for a reason.
 
My main curiosity is how they compare in energy and power density to the existing A-spec Nanotechs.

Most RC lipo has had the reputation of being made with dogshit quality materials. So improved cycle life was always possible just by improving the quality of the existing design, without needing any new tech.

macribs said:
But if they start pushing these hard, other will feel the need to follow. Pretty soon there are 18650 Graphene batteries with twice the discharge of today. Not to mention what that might do to the prices of todays top 18650 cells.
Click to expand...

I really can't see any of the major 18650 players being at all interesting in what Turnigy is up to - they're leagues ahead in lithium ion technology.
 
Well you can see how much of an incredible breakthrough it is when you compare it to there non-graphene versions.. I was looking at 3S because I am used to looking at these for my quadcopter..
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__89605__Turnigy_Graphene_Professional_3000mAh_3S_15C_LiPo_Pack_w_XT60.html
Turnigy Graphene Professional 3000mAh 3S 15C
Capacity: 3000mAh
Discharge: 15C Constant / 30C Burst
Weight: 214g (including wire, plug & case)
Dimensions: 105x35x30mm
$29.47

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__56095__Turnigy_2700mAh_3S_20C_Lipo_Pack_Suitable_for_Quanum_Nova_Phantom_QR_X350_.html
Turnigy 2700mAh 3S 20C Lipo Pack
Minimum Capacity: 2700mAh I would expect 3000mAh if I discharged at 15C rate (like above pack)
Constant Discharge: 20C Higher C rate
Peak Discharge (10sec): 30C Same kind of Burst crap..
Pack Weight: 198g Lighter weight
Pack Size: 102 x 35 x 28mm Smaller total size
$18.08 Much cheaper price
More life cycles? That should be by now the oldest trick in the Lithium cell book for you guys, http://www.ebikes.ca/product-info/cycle-satiator.html#satiate-for-enhanced-cycle-life

From what I been reading in graphene hopes over the years would of been a minimum doubling of whr/kg, not just dubious cycling claims etc.
 
The pricing completely ignores how many cycles you will get out of them. Which, according to the RC group guys, is a key benefit of these batteries without the need to baby them within a perfect operating range. which I assume is the point of your relatively irrelevant link.

Relying on HK for discharge information. Why rely on that when there are people out there testing them and HK is well known for crap info as discussed in this very thread...
 
Punx0r said:
My main curiosity is how they compare in energy and power density to the existing A-spec Nanotechs.

Most RC lipo has had the reputation of being made with dogshit quality materials. So improved cycle life was always possible just by improving the quality of the existing design, without needing any new tech.

macribs said:
But if they start pushing these hard, other will feel the need to follow. Pretty soon there are 18650 Graphene batteries with twice the discharge of today. Not to mention what that might do to the prices of todays top 18650 cells.
Click to expand...

I really can't see any of the major 18650 players being at all interesting in what Turnigy is up to - they're leagues ahead in lithium ion technology.
Click to expand...


Yeah not sure about that. It used to be that major players did not keep an eye on the little guys, because they felt untouchable. Just like what happen to Nokia, world most famous cell phone. Too slow to jump when the shift in tech came, and nowadays even various cheapo chinese brands are selling more cell phone then Nokia.

What I mean to say is that I think even companies like Panasonic, Sony and LG are watching close to see when others come up with new tech - because nobody wants to be the new Nokia. Left there standing with their dick in their hand while others jump on to newer and better tech.
 
Maybe they do keep up. It's probably an amusing anecdote over morning break about how a Chinese manufacturer of low-quality RC toy batteries - the ones who assemble their cells by hand in a dusty old factory using Grade D electrolyte - are cashing in on the latest tech buzzword to extract money from the gullible public. Then they go back to setting records for energy density and calendar & cycle life on their 18650 cells while also slashing the price and maintaining amazing quality control and reliability (and not burning down your house).

HK stuff is good because it is so cheap. It's good considering the price, but take price out of the equation and its products are pretty poor (batteries, chargers, motors). Their new batteries might be good, they might have a cycle life that exceeds the useful life of an average RC model. They might even have some very thin graphite in them.

Put it this way, do you believe the spec sheet for any HK batteries? Would you bet your house that 99.999% of them met the claimed spec? That's probably what OEMs are holding suppliers like Panasonic to (or better) and you wouldn't expect to see "unreal straight-up performance" on the datasheet under "discharge characteristics" ;)

I do hope Turnigy have turned things around and produced a good quality battery, but I'd rather judge it on independent test data from trusted sources than buy into hype.
 
HK batteries? The flaming bit is a "feature". (Keeps riders toasty warm. Cook marshmallows, etc)
10343506_1239449232738634_5840937512166299930_n.jpg
 
Yeah well HK has not gotten my money either. But if those tests seems to be accurate who knows where my money goes.
I will try to read up on the test thread and see if people are buying into this, I just read the first page and many are skeptical yet OP sticks to his claims. Will be a fun read to see what comes out of that thread. It is past 10 pages long and growing.

At least HK got a lot of publicity out of this :D
 
The rc lipo I've bought from HK has far surpassed my expectations. I expected to have to replace my pack every 2 years. So far I've got almost 4 years and over 13K miles on my current 10ah 24s2p pack. A replacement pack cost $180 since I bought it when 20C 4s 5ah packs were on sale for $15 each. 20 cents per wh is hard to beat.
 
They sure look tempting, I'm thinking a set of these would make an awesome 20 minute , 14kw ride :) I'm going to wait and see what the reviews are in theses, graphene anodes yes , graphene battery, I don't think so. Tesla and others behind hobbyking :) is it Christmas ?
 
Are you testing them or just using them as an upgrade? I'm very curious about these batteries and really hoping they surpass the hype.
 
Jestronix said:
They sure look tempting, I'm thinking a set of these would make an awesome 20 minute , 14kw ride :) I'm going to wait and see what the reviews are in theses, graphene anodes yes , graphene battery, I don't think so. Tesla and others behind hobbyking :) is it Christmas ?
Click to expand...

Graphene is ubiquitous in anode materials for EV cells already.

What's variable is how much and where, most are using <1% in the anode slurry for various benefits that tend to decrease as the amount increases beyond a very small amount for some reasons I don't feel qualified to explain.
 
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