Let's talk about brakes

[dogman dan]

We all have our preferences. I like even cheap disk better than V brakes.

But I still maintain that for speeds up to 30 mph, V brakes, when properly maintained, can stop you fine.

We all do agree though, that incredibly poor brakes don't cut it on any bike. Not even pedalers. But there are lots of bikes out there with them. Older beach cruisers in particular, the designers never figured on them going faster than about 10 mph.

 

[MadRhino]

Yep, theory and real world are sometimes far apart. Rim brakes are not doing their job half of the time, even if the long Chalo theory says they should be better. Saying any brake can lock the wheel is saying any brake can be bad, for the good brake is the one that gives you precise control in order not to lock the wheel, but to slow it down as close as possible to its locking point. In the real world there are riding conditions that rim brakes don't like, and situations where you need to pull so hard on a cable that you can only stretch it or slide it off the mount.

The only bikes on which I prefer rim brakes are those that I pedal on the street. I guess this could also apply to ebikes that are similar in performance to a plain pedal bike. On a heavy bike that need to stop from 50Mph, I care a lot about braking distance. Effective braking distance is much shorter in overall conditions, with good hydro brakes that you can modulate with one finger.

 

[wineboyrider]

I have only experience with rim brakes. FWIW I have brakes on my current bicycle that if I pull only my front brake I can flip my bicycle that's with a rear hub!
Good quality rim brakes are great except when it rains.....

 

[MadRhino]

FWIW I have brakes on my current bicycle that if I pull only my front brake I can flip my bicycle that's with a rear hub!

I can flip mine touching only the throttle. :wink:
Geometry is one thing, braking distance is another.

 

[alsmith]

I've got Shimano v brakes and they are great so long as I make sure that they are correctly adjusted. As soon as the lever starts to need a lot of movement the power goes. I've been using cheap pads off ebay lately and stopping is still superb, but wear is fast. I've got some better ones where the block is replaceable in a holder so alignment adjustment shouldn't be an issue at block changes soon.
I've tried a few bikes with disc brakes and they've varied from poor to excellent.
I think the majority of the concerns can be removed or greatly reduced by proper adjustment- no matter what the brake type is.

 

[QuestionMan]

I've got Shimano v brakes and they are great so long as I make sure that they are correctly adjusted. As soon as the lever starts to need a lot of movement the power goes. I've been using cheap pads off ebay lately and stopping is still superb, but wear is fast. I've got some better ones where the block is replaceable in a holder so alignment adjustment shouldn't be an issue at block changes soon.
I've tried a few bikes with disc brakes and they've varied from poor to excellent.
I think the majority of the concerns can be removed or greatly reduced by proper adjustment- no matter what the brake type is.

I actually still use rim brakes and they work fine even at high speeds. I notice like you say that adjustment is key, especially for wear.

I didn't have my rear rim brakes in the rear adjusted properly and they were wearing super fast. I then adjusted them and I can't believe how long they are lasting now.

 

[dogman dan]

On the track bike, capable of 50 mph, the rim brakes were quite a joke. Using the brakes 13 times per lap, they got melty in no time. Part of how I ended up going into one corner so hot, and laid er down in the race. I doubt cheap disks would have done better. That kind of riding needs more than just one stop to happen well.

I definitely agree that a hot ebike needs superb brakes. Including superb ability to modulate the brakes without inadvertent locking them up.

But at the typical stock ebike speeds of 20-25 mph, you just need brakes that work ok.

I still say if you can't stop from 30 mph with properly adjusted v type rim brakes, then your problem is how you ride. You are not riding, you are just going for the ride and letting shit happen to you.

There is a big difference in attitude there. If you want to really see this difference mean survival or not, try getting any kind of pilots certificate. You just can't let an aircraft take you for the ride, you'll die, you have to be the pilot.

 

[full-throttle]

I am unsure here, go with the 2 caliper XT brakes or get the 4 caliper zee/saint brakes because an ebike needs all the braking it could get?

Zee don't have a strong initial bite like the XT M-785.

We've spent extensive time on Shimano's SLX and XT brakes, and where those brakes can feel almost grabby from the start, the Zees seem to have more of a ramp up to their power, with more modulation available before full lock up.

http://www.pinkbike.com/news/Shimano-Zee-Brakes-Tested-2013.html
Saint M-820 can (reportedly) be a bit inconsistent. Either way Shimano brakes are the best at the moment. I switched to XT recently and really like them.

 

[hydro-one]

we really need a good alternative to bicycle brakes. moped brakes like farfle? i would need to fashion some sort of mount but would that solve my problem of poor braking performance over time with DH brakes? at $30 they are almost 10x cheaper than hopes etc....

 

[heavymetalthunder]

I've got Shimano v brakes and they are great so long as I make sure that they are correctly adjusted. As soon as the lever starts to need a lot of movement the power goes. I've been using cheap pads off ebay lately and stopping is still superb, but wear is fast. I've got some better ones where the block is replaceable in a holder so alignment adjustment shouldn't be an issue at block changes soon.
I've tried a few bikes with disc brakes and they've varied from poor to excellent.
I think the majority of the concerns can be removed or greatly reduced by proper adjustment- no matter what the brake type is.

I also use the V brakes with cheap pads from e-bay, and the stopping power is very good, but as you say the they wear out fast. I usually only get about 600 miles from the pads before I have to replace them. I do have to adjust then once every 150 miles, but it is no big thing. So far on all of my rides I don't have any long down hill runs so fading would not be a problem.

 

[QuestionMan]

I really do not think ebikes need such great breaks. I use V brakes and they have plenty of stopping power. But I also heard from people like Chalo who say that V-Brakes are just or almost as good as disc brakes when it comes to stopping power.

If I am doing 40MPH, I can stop really quickly and it does not seem like I need more braking power.

I also do not think that heat in the brakes will be such an issues with ebikes as I don't think we brake all that much. Nothing compared to a downhill bike fighting gravity that needs to constantly brake to make turns and what not. I hardly really ever use the brakes that often.

 

[alsmith]

I hardly really ever use the brakes that often.

That's a bit of a convoluted non-statement - I guess you mean you don't use the brakes much. That's great for brake wear but the question is really about stopping power, not frequency of use, if you use only use the brakes once in a year they need to have the power to stop you safely.

 

[QuestionMan]

I hardly really ever use the brakes that often.

That's a bit of a convoluted non-statement - I guess you mean you don't use the brakes much. That's great for brake wear but the question is really about stopping power, not frequency of use, if you use only use the brakes once in a year they need to have the power to stop you safely.

Good point.

I never talked about stopping power, stopping power with V-brakes seem to be as good as you want them. If you want to stop fast just squeeze really hard then your limit seems to be tire traction or going over the handlebars.

I guess my point about not using the brakes that much was the fact that heat issues are not important for e-bikes. Seems that heat is a problem for downhill bikes where they are constantly braking and therefore need special brakes to deal with that.

Therefore, cheap V-brakes will do the job just fine in my opinion. Only argument I see for disc brakes are they are better in rain. Since I don't drive in the rain that was never an issue for me.

 

[alsmith]

Good point.

I never talked about stopping power, stopping power with V-brakes seem to be as good as you want them. If you want to stop fast just squeeze really hard then your limit seems to be tire traction or going over the handlebars.

I guess my point about not using the brakes that much was the fact that heat issues are not important for e-bikes. Seems that heat is a problem for downhill bikes where they are constantly braking and therefore need special brakes to deal with that.

Therefore, cheap V-brakes will do the job just fine in my opinion. Only argument I see for disc brakes are they are better in rain. Since I don't drive in the rain that was never an issue for me.

I'm happy enough with V-Brakes too. As long as they are kept properly adjusted there is plenty of power, but once adjustment starts to go off power is quickly reduced. You need to keep on top of it.

I've just got some of the brake blocks that have separate carriers and blocks so hope that I'll not need to do the toe in adjustment setting any more making maintenance faster and more convenient.

 

[gogo]

Moped and motorcycle brakes are a cheap route to good brakes (and wheels) for ebikes. I'd guess that bicycle component manufacturers don't participate in the hub brake category much because there's just no $ margin.

Twin leading-shoe hub brakes are sensitive to adjust, but when adjusted correctly deliver very nice progressive/controllable braking force. Moped brakes tend to be one leading + one trailing shoe. Look to small motorcycles to find the twin leading shoe type.
http://www.cyclechaos.com/wiki/Drum_brake

 

[alsmith]

Moped and motorcycle brakes are a cheap route to good brakes (and wheels) for ebikes. I'd guess that bicycle component manufacturers don't participate in the hub brake category much because there's just no $ margin.

Twin leading-shoe hub brakes are sensitive to adjust, but when adjusted correctly deliver very nice progressive/controllable braking force. Moped brakes tend to be one leading + one trailing shoe. Look to small motorcycles to find the twin leading shoe type.
http://www.cyclechaos.com/wiki/Drum_brake

I had a Ducati single which was a 4 leading shoe when the Japanese had just gone over to disk brakes- and chrome plated the disk making them look pretty but awful in the wet. The 4LS was way better than the disks at the time but took a bit of setting up.

 

[k90211lee]

I'm sure this has been discuss before. With my bad back, riding up-ride is a lot more comfortable than leaning forward. Most of the up-ride comfort bike come with V brake. Is disc brake is a must have for BBS-02 mid-drive e-bike?

I'm debating on selling Giant Talon 5 and get a new comfort bike or changing handle bar and new seat to convert to comfort bike?

K

 

[Ypedal]

Rim brakes are perfectly ok.....

disk is only better for mud filled trails and serious downhill riding.

Good pads on a quality rim will bring you to a stop just fine.

 

[USAEBIKECO]

I've used v brakes and disc brakes. Both get the job done. Disc maybe a little better and is fancier looking.

Investing in regen braking with your build is a good idea.

 

[Warren]

K,

Rim brakes ARE disc brakes. The rim is the biggest disc you can get. Old school steel rims, with a caliper as rigid as disc calipers, and pads as hard as disc pads, would be much more powerful than any current disc brake setup.

The problem is aluminum rims are soft, and easily scarred. They work best with orange, iron oxide infused rubber pads. If you clean metal and grit out of the pads regularly, and lightly emery cloth the rims, they work fine, and can last reasonably long.

The selling point of discs is that they can run very hard pads which chew up the disc, but work great in the wet. It doesn't matter because they are relatively cheap to replace, compared to a rim.

 

[ksithumper]

I would definitely take a ride before you buy.

I already had hydraulic disc brakes, but have just inherited my sons old bike...that has high end SRAM components and the difference in power, control and feel is frankly astounding.

Brakes are not the place to save money, at least if you ride hills!

 

[spinningmagnets]

When V-brakes are properly adjusted and use a well-regarded pad (like Kool-Stop Salmon?) they work quite well. If you only ride 20-MPH and don't have any long and steep downhills, they should be enough.

That being said...there is never a bad time to use Avid BB7's on the front of an E-bike.

 

[Ypedal]

I"ve used rim brakes on high power setups, you wear thru the pads quicker than usual but a set of pads per season is not a big deal.

I have also owned some fairly expensive bikes with disk brakes that don't work well at all.. my Norco Storm for example.. .. those damn pads just refuse to grab..

 

[OCD]

Twenty plus years of mountain biking has shown me there is little comparison between the stopping power of disc brakes compared to v-brakes, particularly in the wet. Cheap disc brakes stop better than most quality v-brakes. You won't find many mountain bikes with v-brakes once you spend more than about $600 for a reason. IMHO if you have a low powered setup and live in Holland, go v-brakes and don't worry. But if you ride with traffic, have hills, and your bike has enough power to be illegal in the EU or Aus, you should have at least a disc on the front. You can buy adapters to mount the caliper to most any fork http://www.choppersus.com/store/product/307/Disc-Brake-Bracket-Billet/, I've used them with great success and don't forget your front wheel does about 75% of the braking. Buy the bike you want, upgrade later. An Avid BB7 cable caliper with a 203mm disc on the front is like throwing out an anchor compared to most rim brakes.

 

[Chalo]

Cheap disc brakes stop better than most quality v-brakes.

Hogwash. In my years as a bike mechanic, I have come across many disc brakes that worked about as well as dragging a brick on a string. And at the other extreme, rim brakes can dissipate more energy more quietly and sensitively than any disc brake-- they simply have more thermal mass and surface area to work with, by far. Rim-brake-only front wheels are inherently stronger, too, because of their better spoke bracing angle.

You won't find many mountain bikes with v-brakes once you spend more than about $600 for a reason.

It's the same reason you won't find many steel wheels on cars over $30,000. It's not because they don't work; it's just fashion and the perception of quality. Trust me that you have to spend close to $100 per wheel to get disc brakes that work nearly as well as $20 V-brakes with $12 pads. You can add a booster arch to a V-brake to stiffen its feel and improve performance at the upper limit, but you can do no such thing for a disc brake.

My usual daily ride has a Hayes mechanical disc with 203mm rotor and EBC fully metallic pads on the front, and a Suntour self-energizing cantilever brake with Kool Stop pads in the rear. The front brake comes on stronger with a light squeeze, but it's noisy and abrupt. The rear comes on more gently and quietly with a more sensitive feel, but it requires a heavy grip to skid the wheel on dry pavement (which it can do at will). When I ride that bike, I use just the rear brake most of the time, because it works better and is quiet. I use the front brake as well when I need to stop hard enough that the rear brake alone won't do the job.

My foul weather bike has Sachs drum brake hubs front and rear. They are not as strong as either of the brakes I detailed above, but they are thoroughly satisfactory and immune to weather and contaminants, unlike discs. Their braking is easy to use in slippery conditions where most discs would lock the wheels inadvertently because of their lack of precision at low power.

As to when it's a good idea to use discs rather than rim brakes:
- When you are using a different wheel diameter than the frame or fork was designed for
- When you use very wide tires, like 3" or wider
- When your frame or fork lacks rim brake mounting points
- When you often ride in loose mud
- When your grip strength is impaired