Lipo vs LiFePO4

[The Mighty Volt]

r (but Methy's bike's hubmotor melted again! ).

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA make him make it piss Luke you no Cali mofo

Just got home...my ESC didnt fail nor the HV160 or my lipos...if i haven't
broke me ankle i will be amazed...i went over on the cruiser for the 2nd time
the linear actuator failed :-( I also didnt make it past the second sentence of Dogmans dribble... but that post Luke..made me smile ...lipo forever...waffle waffle waffle Dogman ...ah man....ill come back to it tomorrow if i continue now YPedal Man will have to get involved...u have used lipo for 5 minutes dogman...get a fuckin clue dude and stop "advising" people about it stick you shit ass pings and the piss poor frock motors you wank over ever second post



KiM

Typical bogan no-manners Aussie. Why don't you f**K off back to the cricket and your collection of Jeff Fenech fights? Most ebikers couldn't give a Castlemaine XXXX for your opinion.

Guy rings up long distance to the Australian Cricket board and asks to speak to Ricky Ponting. "He's just gone out to bat", says Warne, the coked up Aussie prat. "Will I take a message", asks Warnie, the bogan coke face. "No" says the caller, "I'll hold"

Streuth...it's a frockie mate!!

 

[dougnutz]

I didn't mean to get a heated debate going. There are obviously a lot of power and weight advantages to go with Lipo, but for a guy that commutes everyday it doesn't seem that worth while. For example at the end of the day I want to pull into my carport, plug in my bike then forget about it until the next morning. telling me I could go from a 20 lb pack to a 15 lb (or so) pack but I need to charge my battery in a fireproof bunker, and spend time monitoring the cells... thats not my idea of commuting.

But there is still a speed crazed side of me that would love to set up a bike with a mad high voltage Lipo pack. For that sort of use I would be willing to spend the extra effort tuneing the pack and bike for maximum performance. It sort of reminds me of hot rods. I used to spend all my evenings working on my hot rod, which I drove every day. So I completely understand if someone wants to do that sort of maintenance with their bike.

In my commuter build, where I have a moderate 48v battery with 20a controller, Lipos don't offer much except a few pounds weight savings that comes at the cost of a fireproof charging station and more routine maintenance.

... (but Methy's bike's hubmotor melted again! )

That's the sort of experience that a Ping pack simply cant provide. Not looking for that sort of experience?

that's exactly what I don't want in a commuter build Though I am sure at somepoint I will experiment with a Lipo pack and who knows maybe I will change my mind...

 

[The Mighty Volt]

@Doughnutz...that's just it. That's the size of it. Both chemistries, it seems, have their own attractions and their own drawbacks.

I will definitely be trying LiPo at some stage, without doubt.

It's just that for a noob like myself, and considering the fact that a lot of kids use the stuff I make up, LiPo, right now, is a no-go.

Cheers.

 

[dougnutz]

....and considering the fact that a lot of kids use the stuff I make up, LiPo, right now, is a no-go.

Cheers.

Thats a really good point. My son is 1 1/2 and into everything that I do. Having Lipo's around would require extra dilagence on my part to make sure they stay out of his hands.

 

[999zip999]

I would buy 16 headways 16ah cells and call it a day. I don't own headways but it sounds good. I have a 48v20ah Ping I have abused badly and only taken out two sets of cells on the #16 on the end and 3 bms boards. Those where my fault. And Mr Ping has treaded me like family. I do tell him the truth I was runnig a 40 amp. controller.Now at 22amps 27mph maybe tomorrow 25amps 30mph? 40 amp. = 34mph but I don't think the BMC motor only likes maybe 25amps. and I think it can only use 25amps. Test pilot please.

 

[dougnutz]

I would buy 16 headways 16ah cells and call it a day. I don't own headways but it sounds good. I have a 48v20ah Ping I have abused badly and only taken out to sets of cells the #16 on the end and 3 bms boards. Those where my fault. And Mr Ping has treaded me like family. I do tell him the truth I was runnig a 40 amp. controller.Now at 22amps maybe tomorrow 25amps ?

why headways? aren't they nicknamed "deadways"

 

[AussieJester]

r (but Methy's bike's hubmotor melted again! ).

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA make him make it piss Luke you no Cali mofo

Just got home...my ESC didnt fail nor the HV160 or my lipos...if i haven't
broke me ankle i will be amazed...i went over on the cruiser for the 2nd time
the linear actuator failed :-( I also didnt make it past the second sentence of Dogmans dribble... but that post Luke..made me smile ...lipo forever...waffle waffle waffle Dogman ...ah man....ill come back to it tomorrow if i continue now YPedal Man will have to get involved...u have used lipo for 5 minutes dogman...get a fuckin clue dude and stop "advising" people about it stick you shit ass pings and the piss poor frock motors you wank over ever second post

KiM

Typical bogan no-manners Aussie. Why don't you f**K off back to the cricket and your collection of Jeff Fenech fights? Most ebikers couldn't give a Castlemaine XXXX for your opinion.

Guy rings up long distance to the Australian Cricket board and asks to speak to Ricky Ponting. "He's just gone out to bat", says Warne, the coked up Aussie prat. "Will I take a message", asks Warnie, the bogan coke face. "No" says the caller, "I'll hold"

Streuth...it's a frockie mate!!

HAHAHA...cant stop laughing AT you... how soooo very wrong you are about me.... Got you pegged for a stuck up english frock thats so pissed off all the time because he has to live in such overcrowded stinkin shithole you live in, am i close ? Or as far off the mark as you are of me...Not that i care for cricket these days but i hope the Aussie kick the piss out of you English pricks in the Ashes series too just to piss you off.....

KiM

 

[neptronix]

waffle waffle waffle Dogman ...ah man....ill come back to it tomorrow if i continue now YPedal Man will have to get involved...u have used lipo for 5 minutes dogman...get a fuckin clue dude and stop "advising" people about it stick you shit ass pings and the piss poor frock motors you wank over ever second post
KiM

Let's be realistic here. The original poster has about 18 posts, so it's safe to assume he's not at your level & one should be weary of recommending LiPo without also invoking some level of caution. With LiPo, there are a lot of ways in which you could burn your house down if you don't know what you're doing. Bulk charging is certainly for people who know what they're doing.

Pings are decent but we also have to be aware of their limitations. It is just as bad to tell someone who's new to this to go buy a 10ah pack and try to run 1000w off it.

So throw dogman a bone :lol: He's just trying to help people who are new(ish) to the forum pick the right thing. You may not agree with his style of electric motoring but he is a real benefit to this forum.

 

[Jeremy Harris]

HAHAHA...cant stop laughing AT you... how soooo very wrong you are about me.... Got you pegged for a stuck up english I want to hug thats so pissed off all the time because he has to live in such overcrowded stinkin shithole you live in, am i close ? Or as far off the mark as you are of me...Not that i care for cricket these days but i hope the Aussie kick the piss out of you English pricks in the Ashes series too just to piss you off.....

KiM

TMV is IRISH, Kim....................

Jeremy

PS: Being English I sincerely hope you're wrong about the Ashes...................

 

[AussieJester]

HAHAHA...cant stop laughing AT you... how soooo very wrong you are about me.... Got you pegged for a stuck up english I want to hug thats so pissed off all the time because he has to live in such overcrowded stinkin shithole you live in, am i close ? Or as far off the mark as you are of me...Not that i care for cricket these days but i hope the Aussie kick the piss out of you English pricks in the Ashes series too just to piss you off.....

KiM

TMV is IRISH, Kim....................

Jeremy

PS: Being English I sincerely hope you're wrong about the Ashes...................

ROFLMAO...explains it all cheers Jeremy hehe Irish, poor bastard England would look like paradise to him :lol: ... i prolly will be wrong about the Ashes, we ain't travelin to well of late slipped right down the ladder on the international scene...

@ neptronix:- no i wont "throw dogman a bone" every freakin time someone comes in here asking for advice its same thing "buy a hub motor buy a ping" im sick of reading it so i have finally said something too frocking bad if people dont like it, put me on ignore i really couldnt give a rats ass, I do though agree 100% he is a massive benifit to the forum just....damn... As to lipos, they arent any where near as volatile today as they once were, if a noob wants to use them do a lil reading and learn howto, why should they have to be stuck with inferior packs. At least offer the choice, millions of RC hobbyists that have never used lipo manage, as to bulk charging shit, whats the freakin difference in danger when you use fifteen freakin chargers to charge your pack or one, your still charging them all at once, the smart people just parallel the lot up and do them all at once with one big charger.

KiM

 

[The Mighty Volt]

Oh dear. It seems somebody fell through the cracks on the penal colony near the South Pole that is Australia.

Jester, you moron, when I opened a thread about non-hub motors in the non-hub section, I was looking for advice, opinions, etc on the subject matter.

You lead a posse of goons who took the thread off-topic and offered very little in the line of any sort of assistance. The thread was eventually closed at my request due to the fact it had become a billabong of off-topic meanderings, lead by you.

Now you come on here complaining about dogman offering his opinion on matters.

Save it for Cronulla, Romper.

 

[cell_man]

If you consider total cost of ownership I would say there isn't so much difference between LiPo and a pack buil with A123 cells, a BMS and charger. It would be very similar or even better than a pack built with LiPo and the associated chargers, balancers etc that are required. If you consider: the longer life cycle; ease of use; lack of DOA packs or problem packs as seems rather common with LiPo; safety; the fact you can use them to 100% DOD; and greater tolerance to abuse that an A123 pack would have, at the expense of some energy density. I really can't see why they aren't more popular for lots of builds where the advantages that LiPo does offer are just not required and the disadvantages are a bit of a PITA and a liabilty.

 

[The Mighty Volt]

If you consider total cost of ownership I would say there isn't so much difference between LiPo and a pack buil with A123 cells, a BMS and charger. It would be very similar or even better than a pack built with LiPo and the associated chargers, balancers etc that are required. If you consider: the longer life cycle; ease of use; lack of DOA packs or problem packs as seems rather common with LiPo; safety; the fact you can use them to 100% DOD; and greater tolerance to abuse that an A123 pack would have, at the expense of some energy density. I really can't see why they aren't more popular for lots of builds where the advantages that LiPo does offer are just not required and the disadvantages are a bit of a PITA and a liabilty.

And let me guess you know a guy who can do a deal on A123, right?

J/K slugger...tell me...when are you getting some of those screw-thread A123 in??

 

[AussieJester]

Oh dear. It seems somebody fell through the cracks on the penal colony near the South Pole that is Australia.

Jester, you moron, when I opened a thread about non-hub motors in the non-hub section, I was looking for advice, opinions, etc on the subject matter.

You lead a posse of goons who took the thread off-topic and offered very little in the line of any sort of assistance. The thread was eventually closed at my request due to the fact it had become a billabong of off-topic meanderings, lead by you.

Now you come on here complaining about dogman offering his opinion on matters.

Save it for Cronulla, Romper.

Couple hundred years behind there Irish... glad i could be of assistance in getting whatever rubbish you dribbled closed, your welcome

KiM

 

[The Mighty Volt]

Oh dear. It seems somebody fell through the cracks on the penal colony near the South Pole that is Australia.

Jester, you moron, when I opened a thread about non-hub motors in the non-hub section, I was looking for advice, opinions, etc on the subject matter.

You lead a posse of goons who took the thread off-topic and offered very little in the line of any sort of assistance. The thread was eventually closed at my request due to the fact it had become a billabong of off-topic meanderings, lead by you.

Now you come on here complaining about dogman offering his opinion on matters.

Save it for Cronulla, Romper.

Couple hundred years behind there Irish... glad i could be of assistance in getting whatever rubbish you dribbled closed, your welcome

KiM

Dude we are back onto the serious matter of discussing LiPo and LiFePo4. Cheers.

 

[AussieJester]

Oh dear. It seems somebody fell through the cracks on the penal colony near the South Pole that is Australia.

Jester, you moron, when I opened a thread about non-hub motors in the non-hub section, I was looking for advice, opinions, etc on the subject matter.

You lead a posse of goons who took the thread off-topic and offered very little in the line of any sort of assistance. The thread was eventually closed at my request due to the fact it had become a billabong of off-topic meanderings, lead by you.

Now you come on here complaining about dogman offering his opinion on matters.

Save it for Cronulla, Romper.

Couple hundred years behind there Irish... glad i could be of assistance in getting whatever rubbish you dribbled closed, your welcome

KiM

Dude we are back onto the serious matter of discussing LiPo and LiFePo4. Cheers.

I am aware of that but thanks for the head's up I apologize i don't sit and take your abuse without a response, want me to stop then don't direct abuse my way and i will have no need to reply to you, simple.

KiM

 

[The Mighty Volt]

@AussieFester....I don't want you to "stop the abuse"....I just want you to stop it....here.




Uhh.....LiPo and LiFePo4, anyone?

 

[dougnutz]

neptronix is right, I am very much a n00b in the ebike world. And the advice of dogman (et. al.) is useful to me. I've read a lot of threads on ES and other forums; I see people all over the place singing praise for Lipo. Most of the time they also say "not safe" or "dangerous". Those sort of labels get a n00bs attention. Which is why I started this thread.

After all, for me and my commuter build, I think most people would agree LifePO4 is simpler. It's not perfect, but none of the battery chemistries are either. That much is clear.

As a n00b I think "buy a hub motor and buy a Ping" is pretty good advice. It's a simple way for someone like me to get out and enjoy my bike. I have no doubt I will be buying more batteries in the future and I will consider Lipo's. But for for me with sub 1kw setup. Pings are very apealing. The added weight just isn't that big of a deal on a commuter.

With out going to a bigger controller that can handle the increased amps I just don't see any advantage to going with Lipos.

 

[The Mighty Volt]

It's horses for courses DoughNutz.

I started off with a cheap Cammy_CC LiFePo4 battery, 36v, 20Ah.

It was heavy, asthmatic, and cumbersome, but every now and then, I would hit 22Mph or so cruising, handily. And I would just forget it was there. I could drop it, do all the stupid things noobs do, and it never bit back.

With LiPo, you get no weight, a tonne of C, and you forget about it at your peril :?

 

[jondoh]

about a 9 months ago, the controller in my electric car decided to die while i was backing out of my parking spot at work. The thing to know about series wound brushed motors is that when you controller dies, it goes to a short. I had to slam the tranny into neutral to keep the car from taking off out of control. Problem was, the contactor welded itself in the closed position. Not only that, the fuse wouldn't blow even though the motor was screaming. This went on for a few minutes while i exhausted all the fire extinguishers in the office before I manually unbolted the connection to one of the thunder sky batteries. The fire department finally came to pour a few drops of water on the now completed burned out controller. This was a humiliating experience. I almost gave up. I seriously considered filing a total loss before deciding it wasn't quite that bad. I since rebuilt the car and put thousands of miles on it, but not after replacing the controller, motor and charger. There was nothing wrong with my wiring. Everything was connected properly. I now suspect a worn limit switch (from the throttle) may have contributed to the failure. I don't use a limit switch and I have since spec'd in a much heavier duty contactor and a more convenient place to disconnect in case this ever happens again.

So what's the point? The point is fire is a terrible thing. It's a humiliating failure as well as messy and dangerous. It's not something to be taken so lightly. It's the main reason why everyone is using something other than Lipos for EVs. Maybe the probability isn't as high as it used to be with the newer Lipo formulations but they still can, "vent with flame."

Yes, the risk can be mitigated but it only has to happen once. Lipos have caught fire more than once.

 

[wineboyrider]

As a n00b I think "buy a hub motor and buy a Ping" is pretty good advice

I think for the record Dogman gives great advice for noobs. My first bike I built was a cyclone setup and it wasn't super easy for a then noob to build. The maintenance issues that I had was that I wanted to use at as a commuter bike and it failed in that vain. The other mistake I made was to buy a small ping battery (most people weren't hardly talking about lipo then.) But, if you just want a daily driver to get to work and back or to the bstore etc. Go with a 9c DD and a ping battery rated for that motor and controller and charge it up and ride!
You could always fart with your welding kit, your chain maintenance every fricking day or you could just ride your bicycle! :wink: :wink:

 

[dogman dan]

Heh Heh. Yeah I talk too much AJ. And I do have about 5 min experience with lipo. I knew that was coming. Never mention Jester by name unless you want to set him off. Respect and admire you Jester. You are way above my level.

So my advice remains charge lipo with a proper lipo charger till you do have the experience and knowledge you guys have.

Different tools for different jobs. I never put trim on a door frame using a sledgehammer to drive a finish nail.

 

[docnjoj]

Ah ha! No wonder my door frames look like they were put on with a sledgehammer!
otherDoc

 

[Gordo]

Doc;
Most people will agree that Lead/acid is very safe. As you have pointed out, a dead short across any battery is a meaningless "test". I have met two people who have lost their vision (one in one eye and the other in both eyes) and I witnessed a third one who received bad acid burns, from an exploding lead/acid battery. I have watched the videos of Lipo fires and they are a non-event compared to a hydrogen explosion in a common vehicle battery. I was 20 feet from the fellow who got the acid burns and that experience has made me one very cautious person with lead/acid.

 

[Jeremy Harris]

Doc;
Most people will agree that Lead/acid is very safe. As you have pointed out, a dead short across any battery is a meaningless "test". I have met two people who have lost their vision (one in one eye and the other in both eyes) and I witnessed a third one who received bad acid burns, from an exploding lead/acid battery. I have watched the videos of Lipo fires and they are a non-event compared to a hydrogen explosion in a common vehicle battery. I was 20 feet from the fellow who got the acid burns and that experience has made me one very cautious person with lead/acid.

I'll second that view. When I was a kid I rode my bike to the local garage to pump the tyres up. While standing outside the repair bay there was a bloody great explosion just inside the door. A battery had been left on fast charge, something had ignited the hydrogen coming off and the thing exploded. I have a lasting memory of the guy showing me the plates of the battery embedded in the garage roof, maybe 20ft up from where the battery had been.

Jeremy