LIthium power for motorcycle starters !

[Ypedal]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyYBh4ec05c

8)

 

[knightmb]

Nice, though I'm not sure the battery is that "secret" to begin with. It's nothing we haven't seen here already 8)

 

[Doctorbass]

A123.. for sure!:

see here:
https://s.p10.hostingprod.com/@www.voltphreaks.com/ssl/catalog/

 

[truckerzero]

just confirmed from website that battery is lithium nano phosphate but there are more manf than just a123 now ps lead acid 17 ah battery can do 255 amps for 5 sec this thing can do 420 continuous and 700 for 10 sec thats lets see wow 30,000 watts cont and 50,000 peak on 72 volts come on powerball come on powerball :lol:

 

[ejonesss]

that is 1 mean battery.

how much are they?

 

[magudaman]

Cool, I just got done putting together an A123 starter battery for my dad and his CRF250. It cranks better than his old battery, has more capacity and weighs half as much. Amazing stuff!

 

[truckerzero]

as far as cost i dont rermemberbut its in that if you have to ask you cant afford it catagory

 

[johnrobholmes]

TekBattery http://tekbattery.com/battery_prices.html

They use a123 with a BMS inside. Very pricey. Almost $66 per cell.

 

[magudaman]

Very nicely designed though I am very impressed:

 

[truckerzero]

on that website you had a link to it comes to a 30c continuous output max amps = 30 times the ah rating and the cost is 7.7 dollars per whatt hour very expensive
but it gave me a idea you can get 30c rated lithium polamer batterys (only avaliable through radio controlled vehical dealers)for a cost of about 3.50 per watt hour
but you would have to figure out your own way to wire the packs together for the right ah and voltage you need

 

[magudaman]

a123 batteries (or other Lifepo4) at about 10 dollars a cell (3.3v 2.3ah) are actually really well suited for car/lead acid replacement with little modifications. When you use 4 batteries in series they should be only charged to about 14.8v and most car regulators go to about 14.4v. This undercharges the batteries a little but nothing serious. The nominal voltage is a little higher but not out of range at about 13.2v. And with one string you can do about 120 amps during the time it is under start load. 3 in parallel and your proably good for any cars starter. The only issue is with standby power of this setup. On a normal car battery you have something like 50ah available for listening to the radio, leaving your lights on or flashers running, brake lights running under alternator failure, ect. But with a123 batteries you have the cranking capacity but only like 10ah of standby.

Lithium ion or lithium polymer are both harder to use because their nominal voltage is 3.7v. And if you put three together you get 11.2v nominal and max during charging 12.6. This is not good for car applications. 4 cells is just too high of voltage.

 

[liveforphysics]

That's way way too much work!

lol

I made this battery from 4 headways in series in aboud 10minutes. I started with balanced cells, and they have stayed that way for 6 months or so...
Cranks a 14:1 Compression Ratio 1,690cc racing engine over with ease. Has required no form of special care, simply connected 4 balanced cells in series and connected them to leads where the old lead acid battery had mounted.

 

[Ypedal]

Nice !!

lfp, no voltage control anything ? what does the car's electronics regulate at ?

14.5v would be 3.6v per cell ( good ) but if it's loosely controlled and goes into the 15v on high rpm.... :lol:

 

[liveforphysics]

Nice !!

lfp, no voltage control anything ? what does the car's electronics regulate at ?

14.5v would be 3.6v per cell ( good ) but if it's loosely controlled and goes into the 15v on high rpm.... :lol:

Hits 14.7v if left at high RPMs for a long time. Normally sits around 14.4v, which is where the alternator is regulated to keep the system voltage.

 

[Doctorbass]

Nice !!

lfp, no voltage control anything ? what does the car's electronics regulate at ?

14.5v would be 3.6v per cell ( good ) but if it's loosely controlled and goes into the 15v on high rpm.... :lol:

Hits 14.7v if left at high RPMs for a long time. Normally sits around 14.4v, which is where the alternator is regulated to keep the system voltage.

If you use that car for race, why dont you use A123? one cell is 70g and can deliver 70A continuous much better ratio than the headway!

2.3Ah is enough for starting that engine so 10Ah may be your choice for powering car stereo for few miinutes before each race :lol:

4x 2.3Ah: 240g ( less than ONE headway)


maybe is's the max charging rate.. une 26650 A123 is 4C (10A) and one headway would be 10-20A ( 2C max)..

The only thing i dont like about that 4s5p A123 made battery is that it dont have any disconect circuit in case of overdischarge.. just direct si battery qould drop to zero if someone forget car head light...


Doc

 

[liveforphysics]

I used headways because I had them laying in the garage, next to some 8awg wire, and some terminals, and the crimpers, and the racecar... lol

I'm sure a couple A123 cells would work fine as well, but I didn't have any on the floor of the garage at that time, and the headways setup has given no reason to replace it.

 

[vanilla ice]

I'm going to try that with my hatch. The friggin stock bat is so heavy, and in the worst possible loaction for handling. BTW Is that a bisi header?

The hotch bat has been around a while, has been posted a couple times iirc. Slick for sure, but priced for use on $80k custom choppers..
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=10533&p=161678&hilit=hotch#p161678

 

[liveforphysics]

Bisi header FTW It helps when Bisi is a personal friend

 

[liveforphysics]

I just watched the video for the first time... First off, lots of exhaust overlap makes for easier cranking for the starter. Secondly, when you flip up the compression release on the engine, you giving it almost no cranking load at all. The absolutely most easy cranking situation a starter/battery could ever be tested in short of taking out the starter to spin freely in air. If that ignorant clown wanted to emphasize a difficult cranking situation, he would have listed the compression ratio and the displacement. He just made it painfully clear to all gear-heads that he knows nothing of engines. lol clown

But, the message in his video was good. Yes, lithium can be used as an engine starting battery.

 

[Doctorbass]

Lol.. Remember what i prooved last winder on 17 Jan 2009 at minus 20 degree C ?

4 A123 cells started my 1.8L integra with the stock SLA 12V battery dead ( under 8V)

I think that at -20 a 4 cylinder car engine may be alot difficult to start than a high compression chopper engine noh?

NOW THAT'S A REAL DIFFICULT TEST

[youtube]qcvmvrmTMMk[/youtube]

Doc

 

[Almasi]

The only thing i dont like about that 4s5p A123 made battery is that it dont have any disconect circuit in case of overdischarge.. just direct si battery qould drop to zero if someone forget car head light...


Doc

(hey Salut en passant)

But having a contactor would make it worst... you need current to power a contactor...unless is a 'electric switch' (let say a small geared motor that turn a big contactor ON or OFF and it stay in that state)... then a recovery mode would be required, a small charger connected would make it charge...then once charged 30% or more it comes back to life and allows the contactor to be in ON position.... I'm sure something like that is possible!

Robin

 

[johnrobholmes]

Solid state switches would be the low voltage cutoff.


The chopper vid didn't open the compression release, it was at normal compression.

 

[bigmoose]

It would be very interesting to "dissect" the shunt philosophy of this battery in light of a motorcycle charging system. Does anyone recognize the salient features of the bus bar configuration on the top? The divots in the main busbar, the two screws, the smaller bars with two screws. Are there 20 shunt resistors jammed under the main negative busbar? The heat path out of the case... things like that. There are "things" to learn from this battery, at least for me. ... edit: just found the 10 boards slid in between the cells and a thick copper mezzanine board below the main circuit board...

 

[gasfreeearth]

Hey LFP,

Cool Honda mod! I'll bet that dropped a few pounds. How many amps did the old lead battery put out? 500 or so? I worry that when it gets cold there might be trouble starting. Are those 10AH 15C peak headways? That's 150 Amps or over 3 times less than you had before. But if it works, it works. Years ago I took out the 50 lb lead behemoth battery out of the Corvette and replaced it with a small $40 jumper booster that weighed like 7 pounds. And it started fine. As long as it fired up within 3 seconds. After that I had to wait 3 hours to charge it and try again. Cold winter mornings were not my friend. The lengths we will go to to make things lighter and faster.

 

[liveforphysics]

That engine is kinda a fussy girl with locked timing, very big cam, loads of compression, webbers. It always takes about 3-6 seconds or so of cranking before it fires. Never had any issues with starting yet. The battery it replaced was a standard car battery, 500cca rated. I swear this little headways pack cranks it better than the lead/acid pack did. lol

It's been a pretty good deal for $80 in parts and 10mins of time to build and mount. lol

Hey LFP,

Cool Honda mod! I'll bet that dropped a few pounds. How many amps did the old lead battery put out? 500 or so? I worry that when it gets cold there might be trouble starting. Are those 10AH 15C peak headways? That's 150 Amps or over 3 times less than you had before. But if it works, it works. Years ago I took out the 50 lb lead behemoth battery out of the Corvette and replaced it with a small $40 jumper booster that weighed like 7 pounds. And it started fine. As long as it fired up within 3 seconds. After that I had to wait 3 hours to charge it and try again. Cold winter mornings were not my friend. The lengths we will go to to make things lighter and faster.