Mixing chemistries for most economic performance and range

i see it in terms of hydro power like this:

you have two reservoirs one big one low down and one small one high up. normally you drain from the big one but in times of peak demand you drain from both. when deman returns to normal you regharge the small high one slowly.

i think the high discharge "boost pack" should have a higher voltage and be trickle charged from the main battery in times of low demand. its obvious to me that you can't do this with simply paralleled batteries.

from a practical point of view you could use an invertor and battery charger to trickle the boost pack. you would need to sense the voltage in the controller shunt. a relay would be opened when the voltage across the shunt exceeds the set limit. -you just need a voltage activeated switch.
 
monster said:
i see it in terms of hydro power like this:

you have two reservoirs one big one low down and one small one high up. normally you drain from the big one but in times of peak demand you drain from both. when deman returns to normal you regharge the small high one slowly.

i think the high discharge "boost pack" should have a higher voltage and be trickle charged from the main battery in times of low demand. its obvious to me that you can't do this with simply paralleled batteries.

from a practical point of view you could use an invertor and battery charger to trickle the boost pack. you would need to sense the voltage in the controller shunt. a relay would be opened when the voltage across the shunt exceeds the set limit. -you just need a voltage activeated switch.

Or you could try the other way around... Make the voltage of the big & slow pack higher than the small and fast pack & connect using diodes to prevent "big" charging "small" except thru a separate charging circuit. As the load increases the voltage on the "big & slow" will sag to the level of "small", which will then start providing current to keep the voltage up.... The problem occurs when "big" is depleted so much that its voltage is below "small"s.
 
Hi Guys,

Apologies for not reading the whole thread, but as Steve (torrent99) says, I did something like this a while ago.
http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/electric-bicycles/1261-torq-battery-mod-storms-up-hills.html

At the time, I sketched up all sorts of ideas for fancy electronics to control the current balance between packs, or to transfer charge between them. I even explored the idea of making the nominal voltages of the packs different. In the end I reasoned that it was far better to just make the boost pack a little bigger and join them all up with Schottky diodes.

What happens is that they sort themselves out just fine - the current is shared out according to the state of charge and internal resistance. What is more, as the batteries age, that will still happen. The current comes from the pack best able to supply it.

If I wanted to do anything more elaborate, I would be looking at 2 things. Ideal diodes to avoid the small voltage drop, and DC-DC converters to mix packs of different voltages.

Nick
 
Tiberius, were you able to determine what current ratios you wanted, what the max current on a given pack was and have the ability to choose any reasonable voltage and capacity of each pack as you desired? I have a feeling you "lucked out" in having two different packs with comparable internal resistances and not having a current demand much larger than the highest output current of the weak pack. RC motors can easily soak up >70 amps on hills on an e-bike(While providing you a cool >30 mph speed up them) and at starts, which makes said balancing a little bit more difficult with a Ping pack that's limited to a modest 20-30 amps.

Tiberius said:
Ideal diodes to avoid the small voltage drop

Eh, and where would I get those?
 
swbluto said:
Tiberius, were you able to determine what current ratios you wanted, what the max current on a given pack was and have the ability to choose any reasonable voltage and capacity of each pack as you desired? I have a feeling you "lucked out" in having two different packs with comparable internal resistances and not having a current demand much larger than the highest output current of the weak pack. RC motors can easily soak up >70 amps on hills on an e-bike(While providing you a cool >30 mph speed up them) and at starts, which makes said balancing a little bit more difficult with a Ping pack that's limited to a modest 20-30 amps.

Tiberius said:
Ideal diodes to avoid the small voltage drop

Eh, and where would I get those?

Hi,

All I'm saying is that if the packs are similar voltages then they share the current naturally.

As for the problem of current limiting individual packs, its not so different from the problem of current limiting a single pack. But is it a problem in practice? Nobody bothers about current balancing inside packs with parallel cells.

As I said, the current is shared out according to the packs' abilities to supply it. They all sag to the same voltage. There is only a problem if one pack has the unusual combination of low internal resistance and low current capacity. Even in that case you could design your way out of it by matching the packs for LVC voltage instead of fully charged voltage.

Linear make ideal diodes; there was a thread about it.

Nick
 
I'm finding myself bothered by your generalized wording. "ability to supply it", eh? My ping has the ability to supply 50+ amps short circuited, but I know it's not going to supply that amount given sufficiently different internal resistances and similar voltage and a load current less than that. For example, a lower internal resistance booster a123s would supply more than 1/2 the current at any load current which kind of defeats the point of "using it when you need it" which necessitates buying more of something(or reducing something, but you already sized according to your needs, even if a little more, so reducing something is not an option, is it?) which defeats the point of total economic minimization. However, your time is worth something I presume, so maybe your choice of actions was economically optimal in your circumstance. Most of my time is considered free, however, and once a technical solution exists to minimize total long-term economic costs, the cost of labor is minimized for any others this would apply.

And, I don't believe the circumstances are unusual where a technical solution would be cheapest. I know it isn't in my case and it seems to not be in ZapPat's case(he might have other flexible options, though.) so I think it's likely where more battery isn't always the best approach for everyone.

I'm getting the general impression both of your packs are healthily sized and you're not minimizing anything, is that right? That's not what this thread's intent was.

And I think I've found the thread you're referring to: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=4607&p=84537&hilit=linear+ideal+diode#p84537

Seems like an interesting possibility. I haven't fully explored it, though.
 
I was checking out a seemingly applicable buck controller IC to use and this was the efficiency curve I saw.



This would seem to imply a realistic controller with realistic input voltages and current limits(48 volts in, 20-40 amps out) might have around 80% efficiency but does that seem reasonable to the seasoned circuit designers here? The thing is that this IC allows one to use external mosfets and components(output cap and inductor) and choose the PWM rate, so I would think that you could fine tune those values to get high peak efficiency for any current limit and hopefully a peak efficiency above 90%.

Edit: Oh, it mentions that's the efficiency curve for a constant 5V out... so, a 48 volt input for say 43 out would have a much higher efficiency since the voltage differential is so small, is that right?
 
I think the lower efficiency is because of the lower duty at 48V. Every time a switch switches there is some cross conduction which becomes heat in the switches. Higher voltages increases these losses due to ohm's law. At lower duties a bigger amount of the input current becomes heat.

Since the voltages only vary a few percent in "our" case, component values can be optimized for high efficiency at one voltage.
 
Well, that's good to know.

Anyways, I'm now browsing a book on SMPS design(It's more complicated than I thought, apparently.) and it appears the author suggests it would take "5 person months" to design an SMPS like a buck converter. With that, I'm somewhat discouraged since I don't really have *that* much free time, and it seems like it'd be easier to directly parallel batteries and use calculations to predict exactly which batteries you'd want to buy so you can get desired current ratios. From a less-than-ideal stand-point, I'd imagine this would reduce the cycle life of the pack with a lack of regulation.

But, it does seem desirable and relatively straightforward to use a linear regulator as a charge limiter since the voltage drop should be relatively small during charging. Also, a circuit to turn on and off the "booster" pack when the current demands trigger it also seems relatively straightforward as that's a matter of turning on a switch which is exceedingly simple to implement with a mosfet and current sensor.

So, basically, the "easier circuit" method seems to be... use a charge limiter and use a mosfet switch and control circuit to turn on and off the booster pack when needed. If you wanted to, you could also use a button to manually turn on and off the booster pack but I'd still suggest interfacing that with a mosfet to avoid contact-destroying arcing. Or you could use other practical approaches for turning on and off the booster pack. While this wouldn't directly limit the discharge current on the capacity pack, by doing some calculations and finding out what internal resistance ratios you want(And thus approximated current ratios) and you know the likely maximum current draw, you should be able to determine what the max current draw on the capacity pack would be.

One problem I can think of, though, is not switching on the booster pack fast enough as the current draw increases. For example, if you hammer the throttle and the current draw instantly goes to 100 amps and your Ping pack doesn't like that(and it seems like all don't), then it might cut out because the booster pack couldn't respond quickly enough and turn on. That's why ensuring, in some form, a slow enough rising current might be advantageous... i.e., a throttle/current ramp of some sort. Luckily, my scooter already has a throttle ramp implemented on it so that wouldn't be a problem for my scooter but I probably wouldn't be mixing chemistries for my scooter since it is a short-distance device anyways(less than 6 miles) and the needed a123s wouldn't be particularly expensive. I mean, I'd need 4ah just to deal with sufficiently long hills and still be within a comfortable C-range of the a123s and ~6.5 ah is good enough for 7 or so miles, or more if I limit my speed(I'd pretty much have to!) so it seems just getting a 6.5ah pack is good enough. But for an electric bicycle, it seems trying to get all the range I can get would be particularly advantageous(But my motor runs at a higher voltage to get desirable speeds, so it seems the a123 pack on my electric scooter wouldn't be readily adaptable on the bike.).

If you *really* want direct current limiting on the capacity pack, I'd... I'd... I don't really know. Having a custom switching converter would be ideal, but that apparently takes a lot of time to design, so it'd seem like the next step would be fashioning something cheap like putting an inductor and filtering capacitors on a brushed DC motor controller, but that wouldn't really maximize efficiency and I'd most definitely fear blowing up the controller by just simply adding a necessary inductor on the output. Maybe ZapPat could come up with something with his brushed motor controller?

But, there seems to be one chemistry that'd make a nearly universal current capacity pack since its exponentially increasing resistance with current draw(And the corresponding BIG voltage drop) kind of ensures its own "current limit" when paralled wth a similar voltage chemistry and that'd be lead. Unfortunately, it's not particularly light and the amount of range for the volume and weight you carry is not particularly welcoming on a regular bicycle.
 
Since a motor contains quite a big inductor the current is naturally ramped when connecting a voltage source. That should give an automatic switch enough time to react.

I think the time figure in the book is an estimate for a commercial product with cost-/manufacturing-/component- optimized design. By choosing "overkill" components you can probably design something that works over a weekend, or a couple of them, depending on needs.

Here is a site which helps with choosing the right inductor core.
http://schmidt-walter.eit.h-da.de/smps_e/abw_smps_e.html
 
At this moment in time, new A123 cells all welded up into a pack are available for $0.86 per watt hour. Ping packs are $~0.72 per watt hour.

With the Ping pack, you get the worlds worst BMS, the worlds worst charger, the worlds worst cells, and the cheapest and least durable construction you can possibily manage to call a "pack".

With A123 you get the best safe chemistry cells out there, and you actaully get to use every last drop of the available watt/hours from the pack.

When A123 cells were 2-3times the price, I could see hybrid packs making sense. A123 for power, Ping/headways for cheap bulk energy storage. But when the price difference is down to 19% of eachother, is it really worth all the fussing around anymore?
 
Thanks for correcting the link and I appreciate your proof-reading. :mrgreen: (But, just to let you know, I did understand the forward-slash convention as I typically use something similar with parentheses and slashes.)

Anyways, I was eyeballing the equations I posted earlier and wondered, "Hmmm... what proportion of current would the batteries approach if the load current became really big(i.e., the load resistance approached zero)?".

Equations:
file.php


And as R_l goes to zero, you're left with I_a = V_a/R_a and I_b = V_b/R_b. Taking the ratio I_b/I_a and you get (R_a/Rb)*(V_b/V_a). If the voltages of the two batteries are nearly equal(Which I'm assuming we'd want them to be close so the boost pack can start delivering when the capacity pack drops in voltage), then V_a~=V_b and I_b/I_a~= R_a/R_b as (V_b/V_a) ~= 1. So, basically, you can calculate the ratio the currents of each battery approach based on their internal resistances.

For example, a 100 mOhm booster pack in parallel with a 200 mOhm capacity pack would have a current nearly twice as much as the capacity pack at high currents. A 50 mOhm booster pack in parallel with a 200 mOhm capacity pack would have a currently near 4 times as the capacity pack at high currents. If you know the booster pack will supply roughly x times as much as the capacity pack at high currents and you know the maximum current draw of the load, I think you can easily calculate how much current the capacity pack will draw at this max current draw. For example, if you knew the booster pack would approach 4 times as much current output as the capacity pack(the booster has 4 times less internal resistance) at large currents and you knew the controller would only draw 100 amps at max, you'd then know the capacity pack would roughly approach 20 amps at max and the booster pack would give approximately 80 amps(In real life, probably a little more but not much more) since it would provide nearly 4 times as much. As the booster pack depletes, though, the (V_b/V_a)~=1 becomes more errant as the booster pack's voltage drops and so you'd expect the capacity pack to start increasing its current output. If the booster discharges to the point where the booster cuts out, then the capacity pack would be hit with large current demands in which case some means to throttle the current limit on the controller would be needed. Luckily, my scooter has a home-made supplemental controller with a programmable current limiter so I'd be able to easily send the "booster pack turned off" status to the supplemental circuitry which would then change the current limit on the fly as needed. I don't see this option being available to many current users(on the fly current limit changing for the motor's controller), however... so that might be a kink with this idea. But for my use, and whomever may have their own similar solution, it should be doable.

Now that I've done that, I think my ping battery has an internal resistance of around .2 ohms. A 10s2p pack of a123s would have (10s*10mOhm = .1 ohms... .1ohm/2 = .05 ohms) which is about 4 times less resistance so I might expect it to contribute about 4 times as much or more current than the ping when the booster is enabled. Is that... acceptable? Let's see, at 80-100 expected amps, the ping would contribute around 17-20 amps or a little less which sounds nearly ideal since I was planning on limiting its current to 20 amps anyhow. So, wooohoooooo! This is a cheap, exceedingly easy way to implement the booster! No extra current limiting necessary! Yeehaw!

However, this all awaits real world testing, so let's let those results come in first before popping open the champagne. :)
 
liveforphysics said:
At this moment in time, new A123 cells all welded up into a pack are available for $0.86 per watt hour. Ping packs are $~0.72 per watt hour.

With the Ping pack, you get the worlds worst BMS, the worlds worst charger, the worlds worst cells, and the cheapest and least durable construction you can possibily manage to call a "pack".

With A123 you get the best safe chemistry cells out there, and you actaully get to use every last drop of the available watt/hours from the pack.

When A123 cells were 2-3times the price, I could see hybrid packs making sense. A123 for power, Ping/headways for cheap bulk energy storage. But when the price difference is down to 19% of eachother, is it really worth all the fussing around anymore?

Now that I'm planning on adding custom LVC and charging technology to my ping cells, assuming your prices are right, it'd be absolutely idiotic of me to buy any more ping cells. But, right now, I'm just trying to ounce all the use I can get from my pings before saying good ridden to them and it seems they're good for 25 mph cruising on flat land for longer distances on my tiny scooter. If I wanted to go faster, I could always turn on the booster. :twisted:
 
liveforphysics said:
With the Ping pack, you get the worlds worst BMS, the worlds worst charger, the worlds worst cells, and the cheapest and least durable construction you can possibily manage to call a "pack".
liveforphysics, you express some strong sentiments in regard to Ping batteries, would you care to enlighten us in further detail? I also see you like to compare the full retail price of Ping batteries to transient pricing of other batteries. So, just for the record, and if you want to be consistent, I got my 48V 20Ah Ping battery for $518.50 inclusive of shipping and tax ($.54/Wh) on eBay with a 15% coupon.
 
I was just drawing some graphs to check my reasoning above, and it was correct for REALLY big currents(like >300 amps) but the proportion basically wasn't there in the 100 amp range and in that range the a123s only provided nearly 2-3 times as much current as opposed to 4 times as much, so the capacity pack/ping would actually be working harder at the sub-100 amp range than expected from the simplifications from above. I'm thinking of creating a spread-sheet graph to make this easy to visualize(mathematica isn't... normal).

Edit:
I've ditched the graphs and just created a spread-sheet, which is easy enough to figure out what each battery would be approximately outputting. If anyone else might find use for it, I've posted the spread sheets below in Microsoft's office Excel format and Open Office's open standard format(I use Open Office). What you'll need to know is each battery's open circuit voltage and each battery's internal resistance, and a battery's open circuit voltage changes with how depleted it is!

This won't work for lead since lead has a drastically changing internal resistance in respect to current, but if you know what its internal resistance will be at a given current, you can find out the "total current" that will correspond to that given current.

Open Office's format:
View attachment ParallelBatteryCalculation.ods

Microsoft Office's format:
View attachment ParallelBatteryCalculation.xls
 
Dredging up an old thread. Any new developments or real world experience on this topic in the past year? I've decided it's time to put my Lifepo4's to good use.

I've got lightly used Ping V1's and A123's. I plan to parallel 3p A123's with 15ah of Pings, with the parallel connection at the cell level, so I can charge and balance this as a single pack. I want set the A123's up as the permanent pack, which will be enough capacity for over half of my trips. Then I'll use the ping's like a range extender. That way I can leave the Ping balance charging, so it will also help balance the A123's, which will commonly get bulk charged.

Think of this scenario, I get back from errands and find out I need to make a long run across town. I do a rapid charge on the A123 pack, and 10-15min later I plug the Pings in and take off.

I'm one of those guys who typically does 50% DOD's with conservative max voltages at full charge, so I'm confident that bulk charging will work for me. I will have voltage monitoring of each parallel level for protection on those rare occasions that I go 80-90% DOD. Also, that will help me develop a "feel" for this pack like I have with my Konion packs.

My question is what gauge wire to use for the connection between the packs that could be 30-50cm long. Is my 6.9ah to 15ah nominal relationship A123/Ping, sufficient that I should go with 14ga or larger? I ran swbluto's spreadsheet and it looks like my Pings will stay below 20a even if I approach 100a peaks. I do plan on pulling 80-100a on occasion, which should be pretty extreme on a bike in the 100lb range, since the pack will be 36-40s.

Any holes or pitfalls in my plan. I think its actually pretty conservative compared to combining lead and lithium in parallel on an e-moto

John
John
 
HOLY FRIKKEN WORD!
Yeah I get it use big fat wires on the crappy old car battery. Man I gotta learn to use the amp meter on my multimeters. Well I finally got all this put together and ready to yield results. I'm lovin it, and yes I will share all info I learn ASAP(I self-balance, hate bms BS)
I'm doing all this for the first time and building an ebike biz simultaneously so be patient with me.

uh, anyway FUNNY sign I use; Get off your gas and put the power between your legs
future affiliation by anonymous parties: OCCUPY ALL STREET. people B4 profit. the 99% must occupy for future generations to continue

Oh and, modern man, I only need to use/recondition stupid old car batteries because I'm still poor and much more importantly most of my future biz wins (new ebike riders) are interested in the cheapest batteries that fit the bill until they go a few dozen miles and prove the worth of a bike again to themselves. (god bless currie for selling a complete kit for only 500,still way more than I'd pay for a bike) much love ES
 
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