My TSDZ2 Build.

[o00scorpion00o]

 

[o00scorpion00o]

I got the battery today, charged it and connected it up and went for a 27 Km Spin.

I suppose the question most People would be interested in the most is how would I compare it to the Bosch Gen I with 50 nm of Torque ?

For starters, it's amazing having a throttle again but, it's not all roses, on steep hills it will die if I don't pedal so the throttle is only good for flat roads and slight hills without pedalling. even at lowest gear it struggles, I am heavy which probably doesn't help.

The torque sensing system is pretty good, there is a notable amount of extra power but I will need to ride it for another day or two on familiar roads to better compare it to the Bosch but it's quite safe to say most People won't need a throttle, I like it because it gives my bad knee a break.

Quality wise, there's no question the Bosch is a lot better but they money you'd have to spend today on a Bosch 85 Nm system is simply nuts and I wanted more power and already I'm hearing noises from the motor, mostly when I pedal.

On some of the steeper hills it's hard to compare at this point because after climbing one hill @around 20% I had to stop and get off because the motor wasn't giving me the power then I noticed I had it in power level 4 on the 850C display and not level 5 so I have to go back and do 2 steep hills.

When I got back I noticed the motor case was hot so God knows what it was like inside, running 52v 17.5 Ah em3ev battery so I am not so certain about it's longevity, the Bosch could do all that riding again and again and not get or feel hot and I've climbed some pretty step stuff with the Bosch.

More testing needed but it's definitely really nice not to be limited to 15.5 Mph or 25 Km/hr, even on assistance level 3 I'm still getting decent assistance at 30 Km/hr and it's really nice, it makes all the difference.

Throttle only level ground it had a top speed of around 33 Km/hr which is plenty fast for me these days but I don't intend riding much with the throttle, it's just to relieve the knees.

 

[raylo32]

Climbing the steep hill in level 4 should not have been a problem at all. Methinks you may have had the bike in too high a gear.

 

[o00scorpion00o]

Climbing the steep hill in level 4 should not have been a problem at all. Methinks you may have had the bike in too high a gear.

Oh could very well have been the case as I get used to this bike and thinking of it now, at a slow cadence the Bosch won't output full power so I guess it's a way of saving the motor, though the Bosch also has temperature protection something the TSDZ2 does not which is strange considering how easy it would be to add a simple temp sensor.

Anyway, yes, the Bosch, I've seen it many times on the power output meter, if I'm going up a steep hill in a higher gear it won't give me full power, only when I go into a lower gear. So it's intelligent enough where as the TSDZ2 will try output full power in any gear.

 

[o00scorpion00o]

Anyone know why I can't see the power output with the 850C screen ?

 

[raylo32]

In a way the motor is like your body... it can't push a high gear up a steep hill. Shift and ride like you normally (or should normally) do and it'll go up those hills easily.

I don't recall, but did you get yours with the cooling mods pre-installed? If not... and if you intend to climb hills like that, especially if they are of any length, your motor is going to overheat and have a short life.

 

[o00scorpion00o]

In a way the motor is like your body... it can't push a high gear up a steep hill. Shift and ride like you normally (or should normally) do and it'll go up those hills easily.

I don't recall, but did you get yours with the cooling mods pre-installed? If not... and if you intend to climb hills like that, especially if they are of any length, your motor is going to overheat and have a short life.

No cooling mods, I might look into that.

I was pretty hard on the motor yesterday in fairness compared to the Bosch, the Bosch you can't abuse it in any way but I was going hard on the throttle and seeing what it can do only via throttle which is going to be a lot harder on the motor than when pedalling along.

Hopefully I'll get the time to bring it for a spin later.

 

[raylo32]

TSDZ2 throttle is really an afterthought. It won't go fast or far. Just use it for starting out or putzing around slowly. If you want a throttle bike get a BBSHD and a corresponding high amp battery.

 

[o00scorpion00o]

TSDZ2 throttle is really an afterthought. It won't go fast or far. Just use it for starting out or putzing around slowly. If you want a throttle bike get a BBSHD and a corresponding high amp battery.

The throttle is really just to relieve the legs but I was surprised at how weak it is on throttle alone especially on the hills.

I need to do more testing to compare to the Bosch 50 nm. It's kind of hard to compare in a way because I'm not restricted to just 25 Km/hr so the bike naturally feels faster. More hill climbing needed.

More hill climbing tests needed.

If I were to do it again I'd just go the Geared hub motor route, there's no comparison really.

 

[raylo32]

Put on a smaller chainring. Ride in a lower gear on the hills. Fit a different rear derailleur and change the cassette to one with a 50t big cog. I guess I don't understand your issue on hills. My TSDZ2 will easily climb those really steep grades. Not at 25 mph, but at a goodly pace. And yes, forget the throttle on hills. It will be useless.

 

[o00scorpion00o]

Put on a smaller chainring. Ride in a lower gear on the hills. Fit a different rear derailleur and change the cassette to one with a 50t big cog. I guess I don't understand your issue on hills. My TSDZ2 will easily climb those really steep grades. Not at 25 mph, but at a goodly pace. And yes, forget the throttle on hills. It will be useless.

I'm trying to compare to the Bosch Gen 1 50 Nm and on a steep climb today at full power I don't remember having to pedal that hard with the Bosch on the same hill and with the Bosch my legs weren't going as fast either, definitely going to take the Bosch up that hill tomorrow to compare the two. The hill is around 15-18% if not 20% at the steepest part.

The gearing is fine as it is, it was the same on the Bosch and it's suits my cadence.

The TSDZ2 initially gives the impression that it's more powerful than the Bosch, then I look at the speedometer and realise I'm going faster than the Bosch allows with it's silly speed restriction, I know they have no choice in that.

The motor wasn't as hot today because I tried to use it like I would the Bosch but it's hard to do sometimes because there's no speed restriction so the motor when engaged would be working a bit harder, the solution I found was to drop it to power mode 2 and 3 and use a lower gear. While the case of the motor was hot it wasn't very hot like the last time.

I can't wait now to give the Bosch a go on the same hill tomorrow. If I get the chance I might do it this evening.

 

[raylo32]

A note on cadence.... we all have preferred cadence, but when climbing steep there are other more important considerations. If you are doing with what I suspect is a slow grinding cadence and expecting a high speed, that is a formula for failure whether on a pedal bike or a TSDZ2. The gears are there for a reason... to make it easy, especially with the motor. That's the real beauty of a mid motor. Just use them. Good luck.

 

[o00scorpion00o]

I forgot to mention, there's a loud and annoying creaking noise when pedalling when the motor is on especially.

 

[o00scorpion00o]

A note on cadence.... we all have preferred cadence, but when climbing steep there are other more important considerations. If you are doing with what I suspect is a slow grinding cadence and expecting a high speed, that is a formula for failure whether on a pedal bike or a TSDZ2. The gears are there for a reason... to make it easy, especially with the motor. That's the real beauty of a mid motor. Just use them. Good luck.

No slow grinding, don't want to be pedalling faster than I was today which I consider too fast because the motor obviously hasn't the grunt, I'm used to mid drive so I know how to use the gears.

I'd say that 80 Nm torque figure is nonsense, I'll know more later when I take the Bosch back to that same hill.

 

[electric_nz]

I forgot to mention, there's a loud and annoying creaking noise when pedalling when the motor is on especially.

You might need to tighten your crank arm bolts

 

[o00scorpion00o]

You might need to tighten your crank arm bolts

Thanks, I'll give it a try.

 

[o00scorpion00o]

Just back from the test with the Bosch and as I suspected it's notably more powerful than the Bosch, incredible.

The TSDZ2 is rated as 80 Nm ? absolute horse shit. Bosch is rated as 50 Nm and it kicked it's ass and not only that, the casing of the Bosch was hardly even luke warm.

What would I estimate the TSDZ2 is rated at then ? can't say for sure but it's less than 50 Nm. Probably most of the power turning to heat.

 

[beemac]

Just back from the test with the Bosch and as I suspected it's notably more powerful than the Bosch, incredible.

The TSDZ2 is rated as 80 Nm ? absolute horse shit. Bosch is rated as 50 Nm and it kicked it's ass and not only that, the casing of the Bosch was hardly even luke warm.

What would I estimate the TSDZ2 is rated at then ? can't say for sure but it's less than 50 Nm. Probably most of the power turning to heat.

I wouldn't be surprised if you've already cooked your motor, at least a bit... I don't have any idea on the power comparison with a Bosch but based on your earlier post about climbing and the case being hot I think that's a distinct possibility. The motor is pretty insulated in the case so heat has to work hard to get out, so if the case is hot the motor is a lot hotter. Hopefully not but if so that may be affecting the power output if the motor magnets are demagnetised etc. I've cooked one motor just riding around town and now I have all the cooling mods and temp sensor installed.

 

[Mr.Flibble]

No slow grinding, don't want to be pedalling faster than I was today which I consider too fast because the motor obviously hasn't the grunt, I'm used to mid drive so I know how to use the gears.

I'd say that 80 Nm torque figure is nonsense, I'll know more later when I take the Bosch back to that same hill.

The TDS2 has an 84? cadenc e limit, so if you are pushing 120 up hill you won't get any help.

 

[o00scorpion00o]

The TDS2 has an 84? cadenc e limit, so if you are pushing 120 up hill you won't get any help.

No idea what cadence I was pushing, but there was output from the motor.

The Bosch can output more power at a slower cadence. The 80 Nm torque quoted from the TSDZ2 is nonsense.

 

[o00scorpion00o]

I wouldn't be surprised if you've already cooked your motor, at least a bit... I don't have any idea on the power comparison with a Bosch but based on your earlier post about climbing and the case being hot I think that's a distinct possibility. The motor is pretty insulated in the case so heat has to work hard to get out, so if the case is hot the motor is a lot hotter. Hopefully not but if so that may be affecting the power output if the motor magnets are demagnetised etc. I've cooked one motor just riding around town and now I have all the cooling mods and temp sensor installed.

The TSDZ2 definitely is not an 80 Nm motor, I knew from the beginning. The lack of speed limit might give the illusion of more power but this is not the case when I get to the big hills.

I don't think it's cooked, it feels the same as it was from ride No.1

Same hill from the first ride meant much harder pedalling with the TSDZ2.

The 36 V Bosch is more powerful than the TSDZ2 at 52 V. The TSDZ2 wastes too much power, it's inefficient, the Bosch can climb steep hills with no issues with heat, I've never experienced reduced power or a thermal cut out with the Bosch.

 

[o00scorpion00o]

I have the v20.1C.2 Firmware installed and ready to go, can't flash the 850c display of course but it already worked with the motor so we'll see how it rides, I don't know when because the weather has been poor lately, mist, drizzle and very windy so It's not weather I really want to go out in. 35 mph gusts and 18 mph winds. Good for the Islands electricity generation though.

https://www.smartgriddashboard.com/#all

 

[o00scorpion00o]

The weather is finally better, not such strong winds or gusts, not wet and around 18 Deg C so I got the chance to finally test out the new Firmware and it made a difference, still not quite as strong as a Gen I 50 Nm Boach but not bad. I set the speed limit to 27 Km/hr.

It's livelier and it runs a lot cooler, I climbed a couple of very steep hills and one of them twice, at the top of the final hill I checked the temp and it was warm, by the time I got home just barely luke warm.

I set it to 12 amps from 15 but it might actually work better at 15 amps and not make it too hot.

The 850 display running the old TSDZ2 FW works but it's a bit funky, because the motor has 4 modes with the new software instead of 5, I changed the display to 4 and it's more powerful on level 3 compared to 4 which is odd, I was thinking of just getting a 860 display with the open source firmware until I noticed this.......

I found the issue with the loud creaking, the crank is loose, wobbles and the bolts are tight, there is some movement in the crank arms.

Is there a fix for this ?

If I could fix it without too much messing around I might just sell the whole bike, I couldn't sell it as it is.