New Crystalyte Motor series (HT35 / HS35 and HT24 / HS24)

[itselectric]

Here is my first ride with the HT3525, put on a Norco Citadel.
View attachment HT3525-onBike [800x600].jpgView attachment 1View attachment HT3525-BackView [800x600].jpg
configuration:
- 48v Lipo battery pack
- 36/48v 40amp new crystalyte sensorless controller
- HT3525 motor
- Norco Citadel with both front and rear disc brake

My top speed was 36km/h, so it is much slower winding motor, but it has very good pickup speed. It ride very nice due lighter weight. But one thing that stand out how silent and smooth the whole ride is. Both 408 and 5304 motor will give rider a vibration during certain amp load or speed. This motor had absolutely no vibration at all, it just smooth as sail.

The HT3525 had better pickup acceleration then a 408 motor, but weaker then 5304 raw power. However it only weight 16 lbs, compare to 5304 it is 24 lbs.

I think the HT3525 fit right between 408/9c and 5304.

This weekend, I will try the HS3540 motor, I will have a 5304 racing it side-by-side.

Ken

 

[Drunkskunk]

But one thing that stand out how silent and smooth the whole ride is. Both 408 and 5304 motor will give rider a vibration during certain amp load or speed. This motor had absolutely no vibration at all, it just smooth as sail.

Awesome. Nothing I've riden so far has beaten my 408 for smothness and quietness. Its nice to know that the first to do it is a new Clyte

So how well do the sensorless controllers work? are they better than the last generation of "instant start"? can they truely replace a sensored yet?

 

[itselectric]

But one thing that stand out how silent and smooth the whole ride is. Both 408 and 5304 motor will give rider a vibration during certain amp load or speed. This motor had absolutely no vibration at all, it just smooth as sail.

Awesome. Nothing I've riden so far has beaten my 408 for smothness and quietness. Its nice to know that the first to do it is a new Clyte

So how well do the sensorless controllers work? are they better than the last generation of "instant start"? can they truely replace a sensored yet?

Drunkskunk:

I don't have the picture at the moment, the controller case is identical to digital 35/40amp metal, but missing the hall wire. Crystalyte will not offer 36-72v configuration in sensorless, but in 36/48v or 48-72v. I can't remember why. I only ran with 36/48 40amp controller. It is an instant start, but if you just gun the throttle, you will have a bit jerky start, but it is very minor.

Senorless controller in my view is a wonderful technology, it avoid possible cut wire, it eliminate hall effect chip inside the motor. You can almost mix with any motors without need to know the hall wire combination (blue to green, yellow to green, etc..). You can run the motor under water with sensorless controller without any problem. However, I have tried a dozen of sensorless controller, no all of them make equally, some are more jerky then other.

I have been riding 1000w geared hub motor for awhile, when I ride this motor, I thought my ears was plugged, it was just total silent, just weren't use to it.

I think if people looking for next version 5304, this may not be the one. I will know more this weekend when I race against it. But if someone looking for better and lighter then 408, and lower performance then 5304 but lighter, equal performance and same price point as 9c, this may be the one.

Ken

 

[mr.electric]

Has anyone gotten a quote for one of these new crystalyte HT35/HS35 motor and sensorless controller sets?

 

[itselectric]

I just made video comparison last weekend, side by side race between 5304 vs HT3525 & HS3540, here is the video:

[youtube]cgssLyUYlcQ[/youtube]

Overall, the HT had better pickup speed, but lose out at the top speed.
The HS out perform 5304 both at the pickup and top speed.

The HT seem to be a very efficient motor at distance, it use less amp, it is comparable to 408 motor, but it is equal weight to 408 motor.

Where HS is a very efficient motor at power, but it take more amp to deliver the power compare to HT.

This video is not the most fair comparison, I weight about 140 - 150lbs, Tyler on this video weight about 180 - 190lbs. There are about 30lbs difference, plug his bike is more heavy, and his 5304 weight 24lbs. So, we may try to do this again with equal weight riders.

I personally really like the performance HT3540, which you can tell at the end of video, it weight only 16lbs which make the bike easy to handle, it can deliver the power when I needed. In addition, we did another up hill test comparison which was no in the video, it just killing the 5304 at the hill.

Ken

 

[andreym]

A wider stator doesn't always translated better, as I have listed from above differ width of stator:
408 - 42mm
5304 pre-2008 33mm
5304 2008 32mm
Hx24 25mm
Hx35 35mm


Ken

Can you check if the Hx-HS stator the same width as HT version?
Because their weight is different there could be less cooper\narrower stator.

 

[itselectric]

A wider stator doesn't always translated better, as I have listed from above differ width of stator:
408 - 42mm
5304 pre-2008 33mm
5304 2008 32mm
Hx24 25mm
Hx35 35mm


Ken

Can you check if the Hx-HS stator the same width as HT version?
Because their weight is different there could be less cooper\narrower stator.

Both HS3540 and HT3525 are 35mm (rear wheel)
both HS2440 and HT2440 are 25mm (front wheel)

Sorry for the confusion, the Hx means either HS or HT, it just my short way of calling H series. It's like Windows 4.x, Windows 5.x., or Android 2.x. or Crystalyte 5x or 4x, you just don't carry what minor version was. My background is I.T., I just assume everyone understand this.

So far, I completed for HS and HT rear wheel motor road testing, when I have time, i will try to do road test on front wheel.

Ken

 

[The Mighty Volt]

Just as matter of interest, with these new motors, does the old general rule about torque production being directly proportionate to the motors weight still apply??

 

[andreym]

Both HS3540 and HT3525 are 35mm (rear wheel)
both HS2440 and HT2440 are 25mm (front wheel)

Sorry for the confusion, the Hx means either HS or HT, it just my short way of calling H series. It's like Windows 4.x, Windows 5.x., or Android 2.x. or Crystalyte 5x or 4x, you just don't carry what minor version was. My background is I.T., I just assume everyone understand this.

So far, I completed for HS and HT rear wheel motor road testing, when I have time, i will try to do road test on front wheel.

Ken

Have you checked the cooper fill in both rear versions btw?
I wonder why do they have different weight?

 

[wojtek]

on crystalyte-europe.com they show the weight of front and rear 5.5kg [no difference]

http://shop.crystalyte-europe.com/product.php?productid=16447&cat=250&page=1

I emailed them and got the following information [put together from different emails]

"If you run the motor with 48Volt 40Amp controller it's safe for the motor. It gives about 1500 Watt output power.

HT With 48V the speed is about 35 km/h
HT With 36V the speed is about 25 km/h
HS with 48volt the speed is about 50 km/h

The dropout is good no adjustment needed. There is a little bit of cogging when the motor is not used but not much.

The Crystalyte motor is much more efficient then a geared motor. Geared motors have more friction because of the gears = less efficiency
Crystalyte HT/HS = 86% efficiency
Geared motor = 70 - max75% efficiency

So with a HT/HS motor you will ride much more distance with 1 charge of battery."

I don't think i agree with them entirely but I leave comments for you guys....

Anyone knows the BMC motor efficiency?

 

[itselectric]

Have you checked the cooper fill in both rear versions btw?
I wonder why do they have different weight?

The detail weight are listed on page one
HT2425 weight 12.60 lbs (5.71 kg) FRONT
HS2440 weight 12.88 lbs (5.84 kg) FRONT
HT3525 weight 16.60 lbs (7.52 kg) REAR
HS3540 weight 16.38 lbs (7.42 kg) REAR

The HT is wind for high torque with more copper wire, the HS is wind with less copper wire for speed

However, as you can see from the following video at 3:58
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgssLyUYlcQ

The HS3540 just pull away from 5304 make it eating my dust, I will take HS seires anytime over HT model. However, i noticed the amp draw are much lower in HT3525, which makes the HT3525 had longer distance, where HS3540 will just deliver the power to gain speed, but losing for the range.

Ken

 

[voicecoils]

The HT is wind for high torque with more copper wire, the HS is wind with less copper wire for speed

Ideally, they would have the same amount of copper, just different wire thickness used with more or less winding turns.

Assuming the rest of the motor design between HT and HS are the same, the HT should use thin wires with lots of turns, where as the HS should use thicker wires with fewer turns.

The more copper the better, and for some DIY enthusiasts, they'll choose the version with the best 'copper fill' and then run whatever voltage is necessary to get the speed they want. For example, with 9C motors, the 8x8 winding version has the best copper fill and therefore the best potential to extract the most power from that motor type.

[Edit] Ahh...re-read what you wrote. If by 'more copper wire' or 'less copper wire" you're talking about the overall length of the wire used, then I think we're saying the same thing. Thinner wire with more turns will of course be longer then the thicker wire with less turns.

 

[Spacey]

So whose going to be getting the new motors in first and any idea on the price?

 

[icecube57]

In 2-4 weeks I would be game to try it sensorless with a lyen controller. Does anyone have a stator teeth and pole count for this motor so we know what the max sensorless speed for it is. Please define high current draw on the HS35. I would buy it but not if its going to be an amp whore. The HT would probably be what I want despite the lack of the top speed.

 

[full-throttle]

I've posted a quick video of the HS3540 on 16-cell LiPo, 70A controller
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=23996

 

[itselectric]

So whose going to be getting the new motors in first and any idea on the price?

We will be selling these motors in 5 - 6 weeks time. Price will be $270 - $325 motor laced on 26" rim, which is the same price point as 408. It's like buying 5304 motor at 408 price.

In 2-4 weeks I would be game to try it sensorless with a lyen controller. Does anyone have a stator teeth and pole count for this motor so we know what the max sensorless speed for it is. Please define high current draw on the HS35. I would buy it but not if its going to be an amp whore. The HT would probably be what I want despite the lack of the top speed.

The performance chart was posted in page 1, I re-posted here

On HS3540, at 37v, i was able to hit top speed 36 - 39km/h, base on simple calculation, at 48v you get 48km/h, at 72v you will get 72 km/h, at 100v you get 100km/h.

On average acceleration/cruising speed, the HT3525 was about 10amp, where HS3540 was about 16 - 18amp. I will need to re-test this, I was watching if i went out of road, at the same time looking at my amp consumption. And the above chart can tell the story.

Overall, the HT3525 had very good pickup, but it only lasted seconds (it's like where is beef?), where HS3540 it just goes. Some of people who was involved the testing with me, right after the race, they all have taken the HS3540 motors. As a result, I don't have any spare HS motors for any testing.

Ken

 

[Doctorbass]

I am still very curious to compare an X5 hub motor with these HX35

- on endurance at high power
- on pick up speed with measured same equal power on both motor

The HX35 is 35mm wide stator and the X5 is 33mm but it seem that the HX have less copper than the X5

I still think that in the same exact conditions the X5 will outperform the HX35 for high power endurance.. and i think that on the pick up power too


Ken that would be nice to retest them, but i need more proof on exact same conditions and measured power IN the motor.

Yes.. you know i'm a big fan of the X5 and this is a legend in the ebike community.

X5 can take 20kw burst and 3-4kW continuous when over 50% of his top speed... a motor that wieght less would impress me if doing that!

A true test would be to the the X5 and the HX35 that have the closedt RPM per volt and to use them on the same ebike same driver and same current limit on the controller and same voltage..

I am finishing building a twin roller dyno to test ebike power. that will help to compare these kind of performances..
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/download/file.php?id=51390

But that new motor certainly have advantages over the X5
The advantage i see it have is that it weight less and can be wired in both DELTA or WYE winding connections and can be switched with a comutator giving an electric transmission of a ratio of 1.7x.. high torque.. or high speed on the same motor due to the non angeled stator tooth!.. just like i did with the nine continent in 2009

http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=9215&hilit=electric+transmission+doctorbass

Doc

 

[Ypedal]

Does this motor " Buzzz " like a 9C ? or is it dead quiet like past clyte motors ?

 

[full-throttle]

Not as quiet as the older, angled Crystalytes. Similar to 9C.

Doc,
The new motor is completely redesigned, so shouldn't be compared on width/weight alone. But you're right, the X5 will prob take more abuse.

 

[methods]

I am going to order a handful of the rear in the higher KV flavor. When I was looking one over the other day I noticed that the hall notches are already there so wiring it for halls will be no more trouble than swapping a hall - maybe a 20 minute job tops - including swapping the phase wires out for 10awg. I am still plotting a scheme to get Kenny to load the halls for me (along with 10awg) - if he will then I may be able to do a small sea shipment and share the wealth. Cross your fingers.

-methods

 

[Spacey]

@Methods: Ready made with 10 AWG phase wires and Hall Sensors ...count me in!

@itselectric: you say that top speed on sensorless will be 'x' at 'y' volts.....only worry I have is that I was told this regarding my new sensorless controller. Rpm = poles times rpm of wheel which added up to nothing past 25 to 27mph without juddering.

Can you confirm speeds at 70Volts with sensorless controller?

Cheers

 

[methods]

I just realized that Kenny clearly calls out on his webpage that the motors can be ordered with hall sensors.

"Remark :
H = High ; S = Speed ;
F = Front wheel Motor ; R = Rear wheel motor
* For special request the HS and HT motors can install with motor sensors."

source: http://www.crystalyte.com/


I just asked Kenny for a quote for 10 pcs HS3540 with halls and 10awg wire. They wont be cheap since I am going to just air ship them - but if they are as nice as I think they will be then I can do an ocean shipment and get the prices down.

I am going to do some serious drilling and then wrap mine in 24" and hammer it with 88V 150A. My KMX is going to be a monster this season..

-methods

 

[Doctorbass]

I just realized that Kenny clearly calls out on his webpage that the motors can be ordered with hall sensors.

"Remark :
H = High ; S = Speed ;
F = Front wheel Motor ; R = Rear wheel motor
* For special request the HS and HT motors can install with motor sensors."

source: http://www.crystalyte.com/


I just asked Kenny for a quote for 10 pcs HS3540 with halls and 10awg wire. They wont be cheap since I am going to just air ship them - but if they are as nice as I think they will be then I can do an ocean shipment and get the prices down.

I am going to do some serious drilling and then wrap mine in 24" and hammer it with 88V 150A. My KMX is going to be a monster this season..

-methods

Look like we might be two KMX with HT35 .. I would try mine with delta WYE so that will make it to be HT and HS at the same time according to the ratio of delta-WYE

Doc

 

[itselectric]

Does this motor " Buzzz " like a 9C ? or is it dead quiet like past clyte motors ?

These type motor combine with the sensorless controller makes the motor completely silent. With Crystalyte 4x or 5x motor, at certain load or speed, you will feel the vibration. You are a long time Crystalyte rider? you know what I talking about.

@itselectric: you say that top speed on sensorless will be 'x' at 'y' volts.....only worry I have is that I was told this regarding my new sensorless controller. Rpm = poles times rpm of wheel which added up to nothing past 25 to 27mph without juddering.

Can you confirm speeds at 70Volts with sensorless controller?

Cheers

Spacey:
Yes, we have tested with dual 37v batteries or 72v at nominal 80v, the HS3540 was hitting 804 rpm. It basically translated to 72 to 80km/h or 44 - 50 mph.

I am still very curious to compare an X5 hub motor with these HX35

Ken that would be nice to retest them, but i need more proof on exact same conditions and measured power IN the motor.
Yes.. you know i'm a big fan of the X5 and this is a legend in the ebike community.

X5 can take 20kw burst and 3-4kW continuous when over 50% of his top speed... a motor that wieght less would impress me if doing that!

A true test would be to the the X5 and the HX35 that have the closedt RPM per volt and to use them on the same ebike same driver and same current limit on the controller and same voltage..

I am finishing building a twin roller dyno to test ebike power. that will help to compare these kind of performances..
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/download/file.php?id=51390
Doc

Doc, it is -35c or -30f average temperature outside in Calgary, it's f**king cold! You must forgot your recent freezing cold weather in Quebec That is why the video was filmed at night, i was trying finish it before it get too cold. Sure enough right the video, the temperature drop like rock.
Depends what you comparing, I am only comparing with Hx35 to 5304, I haven't listed 5303, 5302, etc...Based on the following chart:


Voltage were all the same, the HS3540 clearly will outperform 5304 for the top speed (409 rpm vs 384 rpm), I think the HS3540 should closer to 5303 or 5302. One important factory that change dynamic is the weight (24lbs 5304 vs 16lbs HS3540). I weight 145lbs, I can ride 5304, but i will not make a fast turn, i only just go stright, with HS3540, I felt very agile. I am also very strong believer of senorless controller and combine with a good motor.

Your roller dyno will be able to provide more detail information, such as Nm per lbs, speed efficiency (at what point will the motor hit the top speed), and torque efficiency (at what point will the motor get the maximum torque).

I can't comment 3-4kW burst, that is yours and Methods expertise (The Motor Cookers ). Overall, with the sensorless controller and motor, it is good to run it up 48-72v. Anytime you over 72v, you really wanted to run it with the senored controller and motor and get the maximum performance.

Ken

 

[Doctorbass]

Ken,

I'll probably get one HT35 for my trike and for testing it.

Since my new 2010 indestructible torque arm desing make easy the swap of motor on any of my bikes i will be able to compare any motor with any ebike in less than 5 minutes.

What is great about these new motor is the non angled stator desing.

This make possible the delta wye connections variation, transforming a HT in an HS on the flip of a switch !

delta wye is 1.73 ratio making a great dual speed electric transmission!

If the room for the phase wires is still the same as the 5300 serie, than passing 6 phase wires out of the motor will be a piece of cake.

Steveo already tried delta wye on the 5300 serie but that was non conclusive. the motor draw alot of current for nothing...
It was due to the angled stator tooth.

Only the golden motor/9 continent etc was able to benefit of this delta wye...

now this new powerful motor design is promising alot of great results!

Doc