wojtek
100 kW
Doctorbass said:
do you have more of those magic torque arms available please? :wink:
I would like to get one for testing too - with delta wye switch would be great...
New Crystalyte Motor series (HT35 / HS35 and HT24 / HS24)
- Thread starter vodka
- Start date
do you have more of those magic torque arms available please? :wink:
I would like to get one for testing too - with delta wye switch would be great...
Spacey
100 kW
But is that with an actual load, my controller goes to 40mph with the wheel spinning off the ground, apply any load to it and the sensorless is only good for 25mph.
I would be very interested if the sensorless one goes faster than 35mph actually on the road with high amp load.
itselectric
1 kW
Spacey:Spacey said:
I have tested on 48v, it ran about 48 - 50km/h (30mph). I can try to test this on the street to prove it can run at 72v. As I have said to Doc, it is extremely cold where I live. I could become freeze stick after the test.
What controller do you have that stop after 25mph?
methods
1 GW
FYI: The charge for Crystalyte to install sensors in the motor is so small that I would recommend having them installed on all motors and just not used if not needed. The presence of sensors will open the market to so many existing controllers.... and they harm nothing when installed and not used.
From Crystalyte 2011 price sheet:
"Rear motor + motor sensors & hall effect wire & small XRL connector + Torque arm" = tiny increase in price so small that I can hide it in the shipping.
Getting shipping worked out and then I will have 10 on the way!!!!
-methods
From Crystalyte 2011 price sheet:
"Rear motor + motor sensors & hall effect wire & small XRL connector + Torque arm" = tiny increase in price so small that I can hide it in the shipping.
Getting shipping worked out and then I will have 10 on the way!!!!
-methods
itselectric
1 kW
I will arrange to provide Steveo a HS3525 motor for him to do delta wye configuration, if he is interested.Doctorbass said:
Ken
Spacey
100 kW
itselectric said:Spacey:Spacey said:
I have tested on 48v, it ran about 48 - 50km/h (30mph). I can try to test this on the street to prove it can run at 72v. As I have said to Doc, it is extremely cold where I live. I could become freeze stick after the test.
What controller do you have that stop after 25mph?
Hey, don't go killing yourself in the cold lol... I have the Lyen Sensorless controller 12 Fet 45A and it's hitting the limits of the 23 poles x rpm at above 25mph on the 9C 2807 motor which I power with 20 cell Headway Cells 66v nominal.
What speed do you think the HT torque version rear motor would run at on 72V 26 inch rim?
Spacey
100 kW
methods said:
What sized phase wires could they ram through with hall sensors fitted? A motor like this would benefit from at least real 12 AWG sized wire rather than the bell wire that's normally attached
itselectric
1 kW
I have one customer just picked up HS2440 front wheel, he is rushing to get this done. He had dual 48v Headway 16 cell, fully equipped heated vest and glove, studded tire, dual motors, etc...Instead I turn into freezen chicken, i just lend him the sensoreless controller and battery to test it. He would be able tell a good story, he just recently killed 40amp sensored controller due to extreme weather that he got stuck in deep snow in un-plog bike path. I think I may have Lyen sensorless 30amp controller lay around which I can also plug in it and see the result.Spacey said:
The projection HT3525 at 72v should be 50 - 54km/h or 31 - 33mph
Ken
methods
1 GW
Spacey said:
The slot is huge and does not go through the axle like a 9C... I am working on it with Kenny to see what he will push through.
What Kenny will do and what we can do are two separate things though. It is really only a 15 minute job if you know what you are doing and have the correct tools - I am positive that 12g is reasonable, possibly 10awg with some work.
Oddly - I have never had a failure due to the wire gauge in a motor like everyone talks about. Much more likely to cause a failure is the point at which the wires solder to the phase leads, or the point at which the phase leads solder together. Here are the last 2 failures I have seen with grossly overpowered 9C motors: (94V 120A current limit hard riding)
1) 8x8 failed at the point where the 3 phases are soldered together. Excessive heat built up and baked the insulation off of the windings in the area just under the solder joint. The solder joint itself did not fail but rather acted as a heater.
2) 6x10 failed at the point where the wires solder to the phase leads - cold solder joint
The 8x8 was an interesting failure as the motor would run just fine cold but as soon as it got hot tiny micro shorts would start causing a thermal runaway situation. Once allowed to cool, it would operate normally again. Upon disassembly there was no obvious sign of problems until I cut away the insulator that protects the point at which all 3 phases meet. Under the solder joint (aka under the heater) failed insulation could be seen.
-methods
-methods
liveforphysics
100 TW
Doctorbass said:
It is not a transmission. It makes identical torque for the same amount of power in.
It just makes less load on the controller.
For the millionth time, you get zero added motor performance with delta/wye, you just reduce controller heating.
Doctorbass
100 GW
liveforphysics said:
Luke, I understand your point.. but For the millionth time, The Phase current for the same torque with a low turn count winding make controller to blow or overheat... I experienced that difference with mt 5305 and 5303 wich are great exemples
Using delta WYE make you able to get same torque and having the powerband without too high phase current at low speed high acceleration
There is a trade off..... that's what i mean !
otherwise they would make motor with just 1 turn per stator tooth instead of 2, 3, 4, 5... 10...etc and build GIANT controller
That was debated many times and you should understand my point about the too high phase current and controlelr blow and other big wire thru axel installation complications.
When you want powerfull system, you neee BOTH.. the motor AND THE CONTROLLER You understand that i'm sure but if your controller is more sensible to blow, that decrease the power capacity of the entire system.
With the delta WYE you get the same power without risking of blowing something....
Blowing something mean you are above the spec.. so you need to decrease the phase current.. and.. that mean decreasing the power...
Delta WYE solve this problem.
Doc
Jeremy Harris
100 MW
Doc,
Just to get this absolutely straight:
Torque = phase current x winding turns
Altering the way the windings are connected does not change this at all.
Wye and delta will both give exactly the same torque at the same phase current.
Jeremy
Just to get this absolutely straight:
Torque = phase current x winding turns
Altering the way the windings are connected does not change this at all.
Wye and delta will both give exactly the same torque at the same phase current.
Jeremy
liveforphysics
100 TW
I totally appreciate the advantages of helping make life easier on the controller Doc, and we've both done plenty of controller exploding to appreciate anything that makes life easier for the controller. Delta-Wye can very much help make a controllers life easier, and that makes it useful in that aspect.
However, it's the reference to the delta-wye like a transmission that makes me strongly object.
It is not and does not function like a transmission.
A transmission takes some given power input, and outputs roughly the same power output, yet it can trade rpm/rate to manipulate the torque value to be as high or as low as your gear ratios permit. A transmission can INCREASE torque.
Delta-Wye takes some given power input, and outputs roughly the same power output, yet it can NOT trade rpm/rate for torque at the motor. It can do nothing that gives the motor a higher torque limit, or increase the torque limit, etc. It can only create less burden on the controller for a given torque level. It can NOT INCREASE torque.
That is why calling a transmission gives people the wrong idea about what delta-wye does, and the only reason I bring it up is so folks don't read this and think it can function like a transmission.
However, it's the reference to the delta-wye like a transmission that makes me strongly object.
It is not and does not function like a transmission.
A transmission takes some given power input, and outputs roughly the same power output, yet it can trade rpm/rate to manipulate the torque value to be as high or as low as your gear ratios permit. A transmission can INCREASE torque.
Delta-Wye takes some given power input, and outputs roughly the same power output, yet it can NOT trade rpm/rate for torque at the motor. It can do nothing that gives the motor a higher torque limit, or increase the torque limit, etc. It can only create less burden on the controller for a given torque level. It can NOT INCREASE torque.
That is why calling a transmission gives people the wrong idea about what delta-wye does, and the only reason I bring it up is so folks don't read this and think it can function like a transmission.
Doctorbass
100 GW
Jeremy and Luke, You are totally right. I compare with my impression about the feeling on the ebike and not with math and physics law and that could create some confusion between the real theory of torque.
I called that electric transmission because the feeling i had when i switched from WYE to delta was like ta kickdown and acceleration reborn suddenly.
I really feel 2nd acceleration kick when i switch to delta. And i am under the impression that since the motor approach the back emf close to the battery voltage, current decrease and acceleration decrease.
When i flip the switch to delta, the back emf of the motor scale down of 1.7 factor and the battery voltage is still way higher so there is more current and more power.
The way you talk about torque relationship would make us to believe that this is like unusefull to choose a motor with low KV since we can get same torque with a high KV but the high KV (like the HS) give more speed.
So choosing the HT would be like choosing a limited speed motor instead of full speed HS range motor.
So why they still call HT or high TORQUE and HS for high SPEED... :| ?
Above 50% of the speed range the power decrease so switching to DELTA realy help for the acceleration rest of the speed range think. True .. False?
Since the efficiency of the motor is p^rogressive with RPM, choosing a High KV motor mean that unless you drive it WOT you will make it less efficient and generate more heat...
So if you want powerband, toruqe and efficiency, a normal motor can not give you that... but the Delta WYE can help since depending on the speed you run your ebike, you can choose the KV you want with the switch of delta wye and be closer to the best efficiency...noh?
Now i would better call that VARIABLE KV BRUSHLESS MOTOR ADAPTOR...
Btw.. i was looking at the simulator page of ebikes.ca and he added a new motor, the N3505 and N3507 ??
hmmm....3505 for HS35 and 3507 for HT35?
http://www.ebikes.ca/simulator/
Doc
The magnetic flux intensity in the stator is proportional to that = torque.. allright
I called that electric transmission because the feeling i had when i switched from WYE to delta was like ta kickdown and acceleration reborn suddenly.
I really feel 2nd acceleration kick when i switch to delta. And i am under the impression that since the motor approach the back emf close to the battery voltage, current decrease and acceleration decrease.
When i flip the switch to delta, the back emf of the motor scale down of 1.7 factor and the battery voltage is still way higher so there is more current and more power.
The way you talk about torque relationship would make us to believe that this is like unusefull to choose a motor with low KV since we can get same torque with a high KV but the high KV (like the HS) give more speed.
So choosing the HT would be like choosing a limited speed motor instead of full speed HS range motor.
So why they still call HT or high TORQUE and HS for high SPEED... :| ?
Above 50% of the speed range the power decrease so switching to DELTA realy help for the acceleration rest of the speed range think. True .. False?
Since the efficiency of the motor is p^rogressive with RPM, choosing a High KV motor mean that unless you drive it WOT you will make it less efficient and generate more heat...
So if you want powerband, toruqe and efficiency, a normal motor can not give you that... but the Delta WYE can help since depending on the speed you run your ebike, you can choose the KV you want with the switch of delta wye and be closer to the best efficiency...noh?
Now i would better call that VARIABLE KV BRUSHLESS MOTOR ADAPTOR...
Btw.. i was looking at the simulator page of ebikes.ca and he added a new motor, the N3505 and N3507 ??
hmmm....3505 for HS35 and 3507 for HT35?
http://www.ebikes.ca/simulator/
Doc
Spacey
100 kW
But to the un-scientific brain it would certainly feel like you had changed gear switching from Delta to Wye.
If I could have the HT version of the wheel up to 30mph then flip a switch and it then goes to 38mph then it would feel like a transmission even though it would be pulling the same torque and not actually be a transmission.
If I could have the HT version of the wheel up to 30mph then flip a switch and it then goes to 38mph then it would feel like a transmission even though it would be pulling the same torque and not actually be a transmission.
itselectric
1 kW
Yes, I also notice too, this must be:Doctorbass said:Btw.. i was looking at the simulator page of ebikes.ca and he added a new motor, the N3505 and N3507 ??
hmmm....3505 for HS35 and 3507 for HT35?
http://www.ebikes.ca/simulator/
Doc
N3505 = 35mm 5 turn for HS3540 speed
N3507 = 35mm 7 turn for HT3525 torque
if you change the chart to be rpm, it match very close to what have.
Ken
Doctorbass
100 GW
itselectric said:Yes, I also notice too, this must be:Doctorbass said:Btw.. i was looking at the simulator page of ebikes.ca and he added a new motor, the N3505 and N3507 ??
hmmm....3505 for HS35 and 3507 for HT35?
http://www.ebikes.ca/simulator/
Doc
N3505 = 35mm 5 turn for HS3540 speed
N3507 = 35mm 7 turn for HT3525 torque
if you change the chart to be rpm, it match very close to what have.
Ken
I see that
The KV of the HT35 ( N3507) match with the 5305
The KV of the HT35 ( N3505) match between the 5303 and 5304
Interesting...
Doc
ZapPat
10 kW
Jeremy Harris said:
Maybe I'm confused but this sounds odd to me. I would expect the same 1.7X torque per phase amp ratio between wye and delta, no...?
John in CR
100 TW
To resolve this issue. Assuming the same controller, ie same current limits, does one have more torque than the other, or does it just feel different because at the switching point the lower Kv termination is already running out of steam with BEMF increasing faster, so switching to the higher Kv connection at mid speed does produce more torque because it's just hitting the power band and more current is drawn due to lower BEMF?
ie Run the low Kv connection on takeoff to save the controller, and then switch to the higher Kv for the win???
Also, I thought Delta was the lower Kv connection and WYE higher Kv. Do I have that backward?
ie Run the low Kv connection on takeoff to save the controller, and then switch to the higher Kv for the win???
Also, I thought Delta was the lower Kv connection and WYE higher Kv. Do I have that backward?
Doctorbass
100 GW
John in CR said:
EXACTLY WHAT I MEAN ! :wink: .. any more opinion? Luke or Jeremy, what do you think about that?
Also, I thought Delta was the Higher Kv connection and WYE Lower Kv. Do I have that backward? ( edited 27 feb2011)
It's the opposite Delta have 1.73 time faster rpm per volt than WYE
Doc
liveforphysics
100 TW
Doctorbass said:
Yes, you've got it backwards. Delta is the fast one. Delta is the one that increases KV by 1.73 times (roughly, it depends on end-turn and termination resistance)
Delta is the one that decreases phase resistance by ~1.73times (again, all dependent on the end-turn setup and termination resistance).
This decrease in phase resistance is what enables it to have 1.73x higher phase currents for a given input power, which allows it to produce the same torque as delta for any given input power (Battery amps x battery voltage).
Delta is the one that decreases inductance by ~1.73times, which is why the BEMF is ~1.73times lower, and this is what enables it to have a higher speed range than WYE for a given input voltage.
The big downside to Delta over just picking a lower turn count-wind to begin with is recirculating currents. A delta terminated motor can never have the efficiency of a Wye terminated motor because of this. However, some motor designs make this less of a factor than others.
itselectric
1 kW
VoKus:VoKuS said:
These are brand new product from Crystalyte in 2011. Some of distributor/dealers like crystalyte-europe and Australia may already have them in stock. In North America, I don't believe anyone had a large inventory. I have 4 sample motors that you have seen on this posting for the evaluation and testing. By the first couple posting that I have, customers already show up at the door, all 4 sample motors had already been sold before I can finish my evaluation, or it was taken right after I just finished the video.
I have to say this product is hot! No because I sell them, there are many manufacturers who can make motors. But not every one can make it right: price, power, speed, weight, sizing that fit correctly into a bike that feel like a bike. The craftsman of Crystalyte to make these motor was up from the previous motor. I am expecting a lot posting on these topic. Especially others like Docs, Methods, or Steveo will take these to another levels.
Ken
methods
1 GW
VoKuS said:
I will have some for sale soon but I am going to pay for non-sea shipment so prices will probably be close to the higher end of what you see at many retail ebike stores for the 5300 series.
The X5's only cost marginally more than these wholesale - so expect pricing to be similar - especially if you want hall sensors. The lighter weight may shave a little off of the base cost and shipping.
-methods
