Noobie planning an Electric bike with >30 mph

[docnjoj]

You mention those new Sony 18650 cells. Sony's are great but you need to build your own battery with them. Another project you really don't want to start with. All new battery builds take a lot of time and effort, and there is no guarantee that it will work. Try either Cellman for high quality well designed 18650 batteries (not cheep but worth the money) or go to the dark side right away with HobbyKing LiPo. Better keep your homeowners Insurance up to date and prepare to charge in the fireplace." Danger, Will Robinson" with this chemistry. Cheep, yes.
Good luck with your quest.
otherDoc

 

[Modbikemax]

I can do that with my ebike. Mine cost $500. It's not hard, just throw away everything heavy and everything that does not contribute to making you go forward.

 

[macribs]

I can do that with my ebike. Mine cost $500. It's not hard, just throw away everything heavy and everything that does not contribute to making you go forward.

It was not the weight of that bike that first inspired me, it was the clean look. Notice how the sprockets and chain are all boxed in.Now that is both virtually zero maintenance and you will never ruin your pants with greasy oil from the chain.

But to be honest it was the look and clean appearance of that bike that got me inspired to do an e-bike. I wanted something as clean but with batteries and motor.

[youtube]WUAUNF6Ty-c[/youtube]

Not to sure about that boxed chain and sprockets anymore, there seems to be enough of things to learn and get a grip on before a build becomes a reality. So I best focus on the right parts, batteries and motor and then go about the design and look of the build.



.......................................................................................................................................................................

With all due respect, you need to stop asking these repetitive ?'s.
This battery, that controller, how about these motors etc.
You have been given valuable info from several members that have spent a great deal of time and energy to answer and walk you through the basics.
I'd suggest you stop, reread this thread about 3 times.
Use this valuable ebike tool ebikes.ca/ebikes simulator
Then you'll be better equipped to understand the relationships between the various components and the basic theories that have been given to you.
If you are for real and not just dreaming about bikes, you will find less and less help if you ask the same ?'s repeatedly.
Nobody wants to waste their time.
Hope that isn't too harsh.

I'd suggest you walk before you run.
From reading your other thread you started wanting a commuter.
Start with that, a basic hub kit that you can cut your teeth with and understand the limits of the various components.
50kph is a very realistic for a 48v kit, you don't need 96v cromotor setup to have the e grin. Enjoy that, out grow it then build the next fix.

Good luck

Too hash? Not at all, let me just try to explain my side.
Sadly getting the grasp of a field I know nothing about from the past is not an easy task for an old man.
There is a reason electrical engineers goes to uni for years and the electrical technicians have to study in school as well as do on-the-job training before they are certified to work solo in the field. And for a grown man to learn the "in and out" of this profession in days it is simply not possible. At least not for me. Maybe I lack some logical sense, maybe I am dumb as wood or maybe it is all due that electricity have never caught my interest nor have been my field of choice.

I really try to take all this in, I done the reading up and I do use google before I post here. But as some things still are unclear for me I much rather post here and risk forumers fury then load up a shopping cart with parts I will not be able to use in real life.


Yeah I did start out for a commuter. Then I read all about those wonderful builds here on the forum. And my desires changed.
I still would like to be able to do a daily commute, but I would really love also being able to ride like a hooligan. Do wheelies, light off road use and even catch some air now and then. It's been like 15 years since my last wheelie and it is time to go find that inner child and have some fun as well.


That e-bike tool does not list the motor of choice so I don't know if data will be comparable. Great tool tough.



.......................................................................................................................................................................

Baby steps approach would be to buy a complete 500w kit and lug it on a bike, and upgrading piece by piece from there. I would not feed a 9C that much volts in stock configuration. I have been running a stock 9c at 74 volts, and that is just about the limit before it starts arching inside. When I go all out in low speed I can actually hear (and feel) the arching. If you want more volts you can open and modify it accordingly, with bigger phase wires and what not. Maybe slap a thermistor in there for your CA3, for added lifespan even. Its the perfect motor for modifying and learning the tricks of the trade. I dont know why you would considder it a noob-solution. To much bike-porn lately perhaps?? :lol: And acceleration-wise: I wheely with my 48volt 30A 9c with treangel-mounted pack easy.

Where in Norway do you live by the way?

Yeah I don't see 9c like a noob solution. But due to my weight the motor will be pushing a man and a half
And as I know I will get more power hungry in a short period after finishing the build my idea was to use great parts from the get go. The prices between a 9c and cromotor is what 200 $? Seems wise to use those 200 and transfer that motor to the next build.

But for the battery pack I get what you say. 48 volt would be sufficient for the first build. And that would for sure make a huge savings on the end price. And I guess I can always add another pack later on to get up to 96 volt?

So I guess I will take on part of your advice and start at 48 volt. Then add more batteries as the "need for speed" builds up.

Btw I live in the northern part of the "vestland", north of Kristiansund and south of Trondheim.



.......................................................................................................................................................................

You mention those new Sony 18650 cells. Sony's are great but you need to build your own battery with them. Another project you really don't want to start with. All new battery builds take a lot of time and effort, and there is no guarantee that it will work. Try either Cellman for high quality well designed 18650 batteries (not cheep but worth the money) or go to the dark side right away with HobbyKing LiPo. Better keep your homeowners Insurance up to date and prepare to charge in the fireplace." Danger, Will Robinson" with this chemistry. Cheep, yes.
Good luck with your quest.
otherDoc

Yeah the problems with charging as s slight turn off. It is not a deal breaker, but it worth keeping in mind.
I do not think it will be doable to monitor the charging process. So that part must be done during the night. Those hybrids from Sony seemed like a safer choice. But they are also expensive, in fact very much so. And I would have to outsource the spot welding and the hook up because it is just way out of my league as of now. So that would add extra costs as well.

I have not decided what to do about batteries, but I guess the good advice of starting out with 48 volt is well worth considering.
That would also keep cost down, and better my chances of not ruining the controller or the motor.

I will need to do more reading, searching and evaluating of the different battery chemistry as well as prices before I can make a sound decision about what type of battery to choose. Even if I go for the Sony hybrid I guess I still can start out with 48 volt and add more later if I should feel the need.

 

[Brentis]

You have the stereotypical new to ebikes madness. This is a good thing.
You come here looking for one thing, a commuter. Then see what the mad hackers are creating.
All of a sudden that commuter looks boring and pointless and you want a fix of the good stuff.
Just know that the good stuff is expensive, can be difficult to deal with and can kill you quick!
Consider it like heroin. Start smoking some black tar before you start mainlining that china white.
It'll save you from living in an alley tugging dudes for $10 a man.

You can build a good 50kph commuter for $1000-$1500.usd
A good cromotor build taking full advantage of its capabilities is going to be double, triple or more in price.
Ask a few of the guys here with the more intense builds, how much they spent. Include all the tools and materials bought that you need to integrate the various components onto a bicycle never designed to do so. The time spent on research(everyone's time has value) and often needing to reach out to local machine/weld shops to have oddball one off pieces made. Things get expensive real quick. Dare I say that you would probably find a Stealth Bomber a reasonable deal once you consider the complexities of building a safe, fast, fun and easy to live with hooligan machine.

A cromotor maybe only $200 dollars more than a 9c (think you can find a better prices on 9c type motors) but it weighs like 10lbs more. It has 150mm dropout spacing, requiring a select few bikes or custom modifications to traditional 135mm spacing. Every component needed to feed the beast appropriately, will be more expensive.

Again for enjoyment, for your continued passion, for your safety. Start simple. Don't be ashamed to start small.
I started on the cheapest most basic ebike. A 2007ish Currie/Schwinn izip. Brushed motor, shity lead acid batteries, left side drive.
It could do the legal 32kph for the first 2 or 3 kms, then it started its quick death. It sucked.
But, I couldn't stop grinning. I mean grinning so that co-workers thought I had snapped. Changed my life and the way I look at the world dramatically. I miss it to this day. In fact if I come across a clean early version, pre 08 changes I think, I'd snap it up right away. With some good lithium batteries and some easy mods, it would make a very serviceable beginner or spare friend bike.

One other factor to consider is that it is nice to have two ebikes, or many more for some.
Build a simple, reliable commuter that can be used as a back up, when you build your second cromotor bike.
Then you'll still be able to ride while you wait for replacement parts that you burned up abusing your hooligan machine. :wink:

 

[macribs]

You have the stereotypical new to ebikes madness. This is a good thing.
You come here looking for one thing, a commuter. Then see what the mad hackers are creating.
All of a sudden that commuter looks boring and pointless and you want a fix of the good stuff.
Just know that the good stuff is expensive, can be difficult to deal with and can kill you quick!
Consider it like heroin. Start smoking some black tar before you start mainlining that china white.
It'll save you from living in an alley tugging dudes for $10 a man.

You can build a good 50kph commuter for $1000-$1500.usd
A good cromotor build taking full advantage of its capabilities is going to be double, triple or more in price.
Ask a few of the guys here with the more intense builds, how much they spent. Include all the tools and materials bought that you need to integrate the various components onto a bicycle never designed to do so. The time spent on research(everyone's time has value) and often needing to reach out to local machine/weld shops to have oddball one off pieces made. Things get expensive real quick. Dare I say that you would probably find a Stealth Bomber a reasonable deal once you consider the complexities of building a safe, fast, fun and easy to live with hooligan machine.

A cromotor maybe only $200 dollars more than a 9c (think you can find a better prices on 9c type motors) but it weighs like 10lbs more. It has 150mm dropout spacing, requiring a select few bikes or custom modifications to traditional 135mm spacing. Every component needed to feed the beast appropriately, will be more expensive.

Again for enjoyment, for your continued passion, for your safety. Start simple. Don't be ashamed to start small.
I started on the cheapest most basic ebike. A 2007ish Currie/Schwinn izip. Brushed motor, shity lead acid batteries, left side drive.
It could do the legal 32kph for the first 2 or 3 kms, then it started its quick death. It sucked.
But, I couldn't stop grinning. I mean grinning so that co-workers thought I had snapped. Changed my life and the way I look at the world dramatically. I miss it to this day. In fact if I come across a clean early version, pre 08 changes I think, I'd snap it up right away. With some good lithium batteries and some easy mods, it would make a very serviceable beginner or spare friend bike.

One other factor to consider is that it is nice to have two ebikes, or many more for some.
Build a simple, reliable commuter that can be used as a back up, when you build your second cromotor bike.
Then you'll still be able to ride while you wait for replacement parts that you burned up abusing your hooligan machine. :wink:

Yeah you are right. I am badly affected. All I can think of is powerful hooligan ebikes.
As for the stealth bomber ebike AFAIK they sell for 10.000 $. I think I will be able to do a little better for a DIY build.


Cost projection:

Donor bike, rolling chassis motox around 500$
Motor cromotor v3 600$
Controller Lyen 300$
Spokes 100$
Wires/throttle/crank/pedals 200$
Batteries 700$ and upwards as far as one can afford.
Sheet metal scraps/cromo tubing/seat 100$
Various bit and bobs 100$
Miscellaneous parts 401$
Shipping various parts 999$

Total 4.000 $

So for a decent build with quality basic building blocks I can get started for about 3.000 $. Then lets add another 1000 for shipping.
That will give me a great starting point from which I can excel further as skills develops. This means going Chinese for batteries.

But if lucky with parts sourcing it will be possible to even go as low as 2.500-3.000. Depends on shipping, and what type of batteries on uses. The more I can source from China the better, as they tend to give you free shipping. One seller at alibaba once told me China on purpose have freight rates that are close to nothing, because when they export they use their Chinese rates and post offices in other countries are bound to carry the goods without charge as postal fee are paid in China. Some 100 year old international treaty/agreement. Never did bother to check up on that, I guess I was too happy getting the free shipping.


I agree totally with you on the various bikes. A "stock street legal" just to do some shopping etc and a beast to launch whenever the horns are growing. But somehow I feel most intrigued to start of with the beast

 

[Brentis]

...



Yeah you are right. I am badly affected. All I can think of is powerful hooligan ebikes.
As for the stealth bomber ebike AFAIK they sell for 10.000 $. I think I will be able to do a little better for a DIY build.


Cost projection:

Donor bike, rolling chassis motox around 500$
Motor cromotor v3 600$
Controller Lyen 300$
Spokes 100$
Wires/throttle/crank/pedals 200$
Batteries 700$ and upwards as far as one can afford.
Sheet metal scraps/cromo tubing/seat 100$
Various bit and bobs 100$
Miscellaneous parts 401$
Shipping various parts 999$

Total 4.000 $

So for a decent build with quality basic building blocks I can get started for about 3.000 $. Then lets add another 1000 for shipping.
That will give me a great starting point from which I can excel further as skills develops. This means going Chinese for batteries.

But if lucky with parts sourcing it will be possible to even go as low as 2.500-3.000. Depends on shipping, and what type of batteries on uses. The more I can source from China the better, as they tend to give you free shipping. One seller at alibaba once told me China on purpose have freight rates that are close to nothing, because when they export they use their Chinese rates and post offices in other countries are bound to carry the goods without charge as postal fee are paid in China. Some 100 year old international treaty/agreement. Never did bother to check up on that, I guess I was too happy getting the free shipping.


I agree totally with you on the various bikes. A "stock street legal" just to do some shopping etc and a beast to launch whenever the horns are growing. But somehow I feel most intrigued to start of with the beast

Many people come to this forum thinking they can build an equal or better, cheaper Stealth Bomber.
Some come very close. They start companies and are currently selling frame kits, Qulbix, Phasor, etc.
Then there is Greyborg. Not a stealth clone. They coincidental had a hand in the creation/modifications of the Cromotor and it fits the Greyborg perfectly. Then there are a few very skilled Aussie and European metal masters that build frames to order.
98.69% fail. Some sadly, some comically, all expensively.
None offer the finished product that is a Stealth Bomber. A bomber is like a new motorcycle. Complete. An appliance.
You turn the key and you go. Fast. It has warranty. It has support. It has a large following.
The price is really a deal! No other consumer ebike beats it, at its price. They have sold hundreds of both bombers and fighters. The reliability and fun seem very high. Watch some YouTube vids. Or better yet there are many threads on bombers fighters stock and modified. Read and learn. Maybe buying a used older model in need of a new battery could be a project you can tackle and save some money.

That said, I would never want to talk someone out of expanding their knowledge and skills learning and experimenting with ebikes. It literally has been the best influence in my 37 years.
Changed my perspective on consumption on a lifestyle and global level, not just transport.
But you have admitted and it is clear that your skill set needs much improvement before build anything approaching a stealth.
It is still demonstrated in your parts break down, it is full of holes.
Your want to use a moto x frame. But it does not offer the appropriate dropouts for a bicycle axle.
Complicated conversion, not as cheap and easy as you think, unless your a metal worker, engineer, mad scientist.
A moto x frame is then setup with moto x forks, springs, wheels, etc. all heavier then bicycle components.
Again complex expensive conversion to bike components if weight is your concern.
The Cromotor that is the "Godzilla" of ebike motors would make a mediocre moto x motor at best.
Likely the first steep hill you tried to power up at 80 would make smoke quick.
I google earthed the area around the two towns your mentioned, and unless you stay in the city proper, your area is hilly to mildly mountainous. Careful planning is needed if you want to use a hub motor.
Lyens controllers are ok and he provides a service, but you won't be providing that controller any service in too high a duty cycle.
Most disturbing of all is your battery plan. $700 for unknown Chinese battery as you call them. Please.
The most important part of a high power build is your battery. Likely 50% of the total cost with management and charging. Need to face some reality.
You will kill a cheap under spec'd battery in no time at all. $700 less then you could have had for the battery you have to buy.


Young Jedi

Control power you will?
Life will dark side take.
Small you must start.
Skills strong you shall build.
Dark side you take.

 

[MadRhino]

Yep, building on a MX frame is making a bike much too heavy, and making it very complicated too.

Not hard to beat a Bomber, one only need to build lighter and feed more power. Yet it is not that simple to build balanced and reliable, a bike that is safe in operation in all conditions and handles fine at the power and speed that it is capable of. If your goal is to beat a Bomber, prepare to spend the time and money that will make you realize that a Bomber is not so much overpriced after all.

 

[macribs]

Well the motox donor idea was mostly due to my weight. I am a husky one.
And I would hate for the finished bike to break down due to the weight issue. Seems a motox chassis with cromolly frame would be easier to do start with, cause I can weld crmo myself. I can take out the grinder and cut and design to meet my needs. Also the battery tank could be designed to fit the batteries I will end up with. If 1 cromotor will be slow or catch fire, well there is always possible to add a front motor as well. Maybe even a light geared motor to help with the hills and acceleration.

Using a motox frame will let me get the best out of the well proven geometry rather then trying to do it from scratch. In the end one could be left only with the fork mounting point and the swing arm mounting point. Rest of frame might be crmo sheets. Point is I don't know before I start. Sure I could do a temporary design on pc, or draw by hand but I find it easier to go about when you got it all in front of you.

It is not hard to find chassis with even lightweight alloy swing arms. Ie KTM used magnesium swing arms. Strong and light.
A custom torque arm would take care of axle diameter. Wheels are heavy no doubt. But they will stay true. And never crack. And swapping dirt tires for say 125cc motard tires would give insane grip on tarmac, both for braking and acceleration. Suspension will be better then on a DH bike, and that goes a long way for a husky rider. Not to mention whatever speed I will manage it will be a safe ride. With plenty of stopping power.

I think a full 80 cc dirtbike is around 75-80 kilos. A 125cc around 90. But they do have a few pounds to loose from engine/gearbox/radiator. Not to mention the frame after cutting out those crmo tubes.

I just got bitch slapped earlier in this thread for not trusting Chinese manufacturers, and now when I do consider I am actually crazy? Damned if I do and damned if I don't

And if I do choose Chinese batteries, they might even work. Seems they can do A123, lifepo4, lico etc. So why not those hybrid batteries? A big plus in my book is that those batteries comes in a pack. Meaning no spot welding and risking damage to cells due to poor execution. Even US made packs are using import batteries. So I think I will take my chances. If I screw up, well then I learned to buy from a better source next time.

I never sat out to outdo Stealth bikes. I just think that for my fat behind I can build a bikes that does what i need for a reasonable amount of cash . I might be wrong. As I have not done this before I don't know. But I will sure be nice to try it out.

 

[Brentis]

Man, I don't know what to make of you.
You are unaccepting of advice and basic understandings of physics, electronics and common sense.
Your wants are a constant barrage of contradictions.
I'm starting to believe you are just trolling. Wasting others time.
You need to spend a year or two reading various electric vehicle websites.
I wish you the best of luck, seriously.
I predict a road to massive frustration and disappointment.
It'll end with you spending a small fortune and believing electric vehicles aren't good enough.
Please prove me wrong.

You have a serious misconception about China. Many high quality products are produce there.
You just keep choosing the worst possible batteries that are available in china.
You want cheap and top quality. Never going to happen. Give that way of thinking up.
That goes for every component from batteries to wiring to nuts and bolts.
Product built to a price rather than the highest standards for quality will always have I higher failure rate.
What components are you willing to sacrifice to failure?

This will be the last post I make on this thread until you start to get it.
Otherwise I'm talking to a wall.

Best of luck.

 

[MadRhino]

Well the motox donor idea was mostly due to my weight. I am a husky one.

Big guys don't need heavier bikes, they only need a bike that is sized and set for them.

Downhill racer Greg Minaar is a big guy on a 40 Lbs bike

[youtube]0mGBr93ajms[/youtube]

 

[macribs]

Well the motox donor idea was mostly due to my weight. I am a husky one.

Big guys don't need heavier bikes, they only need a bike that is sized and set for them.

Downhill racer Greg Minaar is a big guy on a 40 Lbs bike

[youtube]0mGBr93ajms[/youtube]

Well thank you
You made me do more research and I found that Fox Float 40's will happily tend to a 110 kilo rider with no stress.
And I still have 10 more psi for that "holiday extras"

I kind of thought my weight would be the most challenging part when building, to find parts that would handle the weight.
But as it turns out even standard over the counter parts will work.

Man, I don't know what to make of you.
You are unaccepting of advice and basic understandings of physics, electronics and common sense.
Your wants are a constant barrage of contradictions.
I'm starting to believe you are just trolling. Wasting others time.
You need to spend a year or two reading various electric vehicle websites.
I wish you the best of luck, seriously.
I predict a road to massive frustration and disappointment.
It'll end with you spending a small fortune and believing electric vehicles aren't good enough.
Please prove me wrong.

You have a serious misconception about China. Many high quality products are produce there.
You just keep choosing the worst possible batteries that are available in china.
You want cheap and top quality. Never going to happen. Give that way of thinking up.
That goes for every component from batteries to wiring to nuts and bolts.
Product built to a price rather than the highest standards for quality will always have I higher failure rate.
What components are you willing to sacrifice to failure?

This will be the last post I make on this thread until you start to get it.
Otherwise I'm talking to a wall.

Best of luck.

Well, back to changing my views again. I am sure it will not be the last time either. This is new ground for me.
So I am learning, reading and posting stupid comments and questions. But hey, as long as I get corrected when I post half ass thoughts it is well worth looking stupid here. At least I got corrected before I got that mx rolling chassis

 

[spinningmagnets]

Here is some info on reliable batteries from trusted vendors that may be useful:

http://www.electricbike.com/high-current-batteries-not-lipo/

 

[Brentis]

Re-reading my posts they can come across as harsh or unsympathetic with out the benefit of inflection.
I struggle with communicating in the digital world, even after all these years. I am a look you in the eyes kind of communicator, don't even like the phone. A lot of communication is is non verbal and complete absent in this format.
I like to be able to "read" a man and that doesn't work here.

I must admit some frustration with you. You have been advised by just about everyone to start small.
This will provide more education and understanding than you currently possess.
Making your next, more powerful build more likely to succeed, though that is never a sure thing.
High power builds are extremely complex to the uninitiated and still challenging to those with experience.
You have none.

If you must start big, you need to start with a solid budget. Then a desired duty cycle.
Only then can others truly help you narrow down part choices.
You are so, all over the map, that no one can offer you solid parts plan.
As exampled by your new found discovery of that Fox 40. Great fork, but what $1500-$2000 new? There's 15% of a Stealth Bombers price for 1 component. Hope you have another 6-8k to buy the right bike, the right motor, the right batteries, etc. to go with your high end fork?

Guess I just wanted to apologies for potentially being too abrasive. I understand the passion of ebikes and I certainly know what it's like to know nothing about it. I mean nothing, I was a moron. You say you have read up lots, but it is clear that you are either exaggerating or in need of much more study. Read read read, then read some more, build threads will be your best friend. Eventually all the relationships and limitations between components will make sense. But continuing to ask ?s about specific parts combos without understanding the basics of why, will do you a disservice in your continued education.

One last time.
Start small. Trust us.
We are not saying it to hold you back. It is for your desire of knowledge. It is to keep you safe and enjoying the revolution for years to come. To keep the e grin growing.

 

[macribs]

Relax Brentis. No hard feelings. All good bro

I do understand what you tried to communicate, and I do also agree. Yes I have had like 100's of different thoughts and ideas for my build. Unfortunately those ideas changes too often when I have read some build thread or (mis)interpreted some forum advice. But I am first and foremost here to learn. And getting corrected is part of the process. So I welcome it all.

The only time I've been working with any electrical wiring was more then 20 years ago when I hooked up car stereo and big amps with some beefy woofers. And even working with 12v DC I had a hard time with the soldering and what not. But that is the only time spend with anything more complicated then pulling the plug in or out from an outlet. So yeah. I lack the fundamentals.

The reason I started this "rant" of a thread was partly to be able to air out any thoughts, wild ideas and crazy assumptions I make to see if they hold water. And as we all know by now, most of the time they don't. But that is all part of the learning process.

I am not here to troll, give you guys a hard time or try to make your hair gray. I simply try to learn. And I must say that the material is hard to grasp and reading most of it in a foreign language does not make it any easier. So my guess is there will still be stupid rants from me in this thread, although hopefully fewer and fewer as my understanding gets better. If it gets too much pls just ignore this thread.

Happy days

 

[Paradigm]

macribs: I agree with the general consensus of contributors in that there is a lot to be learned in constructing complex customized EV systems and that starting with smaller projects will help with the curve in being successful with advanced projects.

That being said, I have never been one to start small (though I have paid a price in this mind set). Through my experiences I have learned that to start at the hardest level you: 1) need to spend enough time in the research, design, and sourcing stage to compensate for the lack of experience. 2) take the advice of those with experience and knowledge in the field you are stepping into. You need to develop a solid foundation of knowledge and put together a plan on how you will design and source parts for your project so that your not jumping all over the place and don't over step your pace. Take your time and come up with an outline for your approach so you know what blanks you need to fill in.

 

[Samd]

Can you send a google map of your commute? I want to check gradients along the 15km track.
http://veloroutes.org/

Reading back it's true as others have said, you are all over the place with ideas.
Don't try to get one ebike to do all the other things you might want to do one day. Jay Leno doesn't have just one car in his garage.

So if you want to start with your original idea to:
1) commute the 15km, lets see what hills you have.
2) Have a little fun offroad
.....then lets see if a refined mid drive will do then size your battery. It's likely you could just fit a BBS02 and be happy. You won't have a monster bike like a stealth bomber. But for a couple of grand you'll have a dependable solution with money left over to start your offroad monster bike build.

 

[Paradigm]

Thx spinningmagnets for your thoughtful replies. And much appreciated articles on electricbike.com. Keep it up dude
I have come over the Adaptto Controller and from the looks of it by reading that thread it seems Adaptto controllers will give you everything short of wheelie mode

They have embedded heat sensors and one can adjust the controller based on what battery one runs. As soon as heat builds up the controller will limit the voltage and amp till things cools down. Not a complete stop but it will ease back enough to avoid melting or fried controller. It even has a build in charger so one will save some money on not needing to buy that extra charger.

So what I think at the moment is to carefully look for great deals on batteries and buy as many as I can afford. Based on the price I can get I will then decide what kind of voltage/amp I will run. If I get good deal somewhere I just might get as many batteries as the Adaptto can handle
Well to be serious I think 72 volt will me manageable. Maybe even more.

So if that will the path I take I am a little unsure as the if I will need to make liquid cooling or not. That thread was really great and informative but I still can't picture how the heatsink/pipes were embedded into the hub motor. As for pumps, radiators and fans those are dirt cheap and reliable. The only problem will be if I can muster enough craftsmanship to rebuild the motor. For several years I was into o/c and water cooling for PC. So I know where to source parts and what to get.

But for the fun of it, lets assume I will be able to modify the geared hub motor. And lets say I can get a 72v or 96v battery pack.
What kind of average speed do you think I will be able to get from 2 liquid cooled hub motors when exploring the limits? Top speed close to 60 mph? Sustained speed of 40-45 mph on my commute? Is there any way to calculate this, like a formula? Or even better maybe a website that does this for you? Like change volt and amp to see how that will change top speed, sustained speed and predicted melting point?

Your going to have to run some experiments and see what comes of it. You can go about liquid cooling a few ways. The fact that your trying to do it on a rotating mechanism brings about a few complications. I have done several experiments with mineral oil submersion with mixed success. If you had an oil filled hub and the exchanger worked off the centrifugal force of the wheel rotation having small inter-coolers mounted on each side of the wheel opposing each other (for balance) you could do some serious 'overclocking'. I personally am a fan of liquid N2 but I do not suggest it for others. Oil submersion has the advantage that the system heat will naturally get dispersed through out the oil.

 

[MadRhino]

2 motors won't perform as good as one, you are only making it heavy and redudant. 2 motors does make sense on a slow bike to ride lose terrain and rough tecnical mountain trails on bad season. For performance you want a light weight bike built on a stiff frame. To make it reliable ideally, you need to build it as simple as possible, with quick maintenance in mind.

The top speed that you can achieve and handle relies on motor- battery- controller combination; along with the time and money that you are willing to spend to build your bike.

 

[Paradigm]

Ha...I agree fully with the above post. Although...I am building a very complex dual motor theoretically high speed bike on a folding frame

 

[macribs]

2 motors won't perform as good as one, you are only making it heavy and redudant. 2 motors does make sense on a slow bike to ride lose terrain and rough tecnical mountain trails on bad season. For performance you want a light weight bike built on a stiff frame. To make it reliable ideally, you need to build it as simple as possible, with quick maintenance in mind.

The top speed that you can achieve and handle relies on motor- battery- controller combination; along with the time and money that you are willing to spend to build your bike.

I am going to have to revise the whole initial plan and idea as I started out with a to complicated build plan.
Seems that for the bike to meet my goal of being a hooligan bike also fit for commuting I need to think weight first and foremost.
Well it is great with all the feedback I have gotten in this thread, that way I can adjust and rethink what I need for my first build.

In some way I think welding up the frame would be super cool and a real learning experience but there are many good choices of ready build frames to choose from, also frames with wide enough swing arm to fit the cromotor, if that in fact will be the motor I end up using.

And I will need to do more reading about batteries and get more price quotes so I am sure I make the right choice as those will be essential to meet the need for speed and acceleration.

So where I am now is back to basic. Square one. Best thing to do is follow the general idea from all the responders in this thread and gather more skills and knowledge before I start planning and sourcing parts etc. A week or two I might be able to get started with a few ideas and then I will pitch them here so I can get much needed feedback and comments.

Thanks to all of you that have contributed in this thread, all of you "are to blame" for me rethinking this whole thing.
So next time I will post I hopefully will have a more sensible idea and plan on what to make and how to get there.

 

[Paradigm]

If you come up with a battery design that enough people are interested in you can approach a manufacturer for a custom battery for a bulk purchase. Theres nothing wrong with rethinking a project like this. I went through dozens of designs before I settled on my build. The advantage to mine though is that most of the parts will be rail mounted and can be moved and switched out easily, the disadvantage being that it will never actually be finished. What kind of budget are you looking at?

 

[Brentis]

Don't make it more complicated than it need be. Most of the info you need to proceed is here in this thread.
Boiled down.
1. Budget. How many € are you working with? This will help others guide you towards a solution to your desired speed & range.
2. Mapyourride. It was linked earlier in the thread. Let us know the results of say your home to work. Then maybe your home to a local park or path you would like to ride. The important unknown variable is the hilly terrain. We need hard numbers to best assure you the right components.
3. Set a desired range/speed. You mentioned at the begining of this wild ride, you wanted 15km range @ 50-60+kph,
hilly terrain, 250 pounder, not insurmountable. In fact on this continent you can find areas that 250lbs is the average. For a woman! Seriously you can go into many fast good joints and find many 300-400+ Pounders. We have an epidemic in N.A.
Your speed and range targets are not unreasonable for a first well researched bike.
Commuter with a hooligan side. Define Hooligan? 10 foot drops? Wheelies at 80kph? A bike that looks like something MadMax would ride?
4. Ask before you buy! Don't get crazy.

 

[Paradigm]

You mention those new Sony 18650 cells. Sony's are great but you need to build your own battery with them. Another project you really don't want to start with. All new battery builds take a lot of time and effort, and there is no guarantee that it will work. Try either Cellman for high quality well designed 18650 batteries (not cheep but worth the money) or go to the dark side right away with HobbyKing LiPo. Better keep your homeowners Insurance up to date and prepare to charge in the fireplace." Danger, Will Robinson" with this chemistry. Cheep, yes.
Good luck with your quest.
otherDoc

Are you suggesting HobbyKing batteries are often defective or that the chemistry is unstable and hard to charge? Unless your making them from scratch (I'm doing hybrid lithium titanate supercapacitors research right now ) or ordering custom battery cells in bulk they really do have the best price. I just got four 4S1P 30C 8Ah to make a built in pack then some quick change (like power tools) 8Ah, 20Ah packs.

 

[macribs]

Well my budget is not set, so a little fluid. I could go 4K even 5K $ if it makes sense. Cos less is better. I am cheap by nature

Hooligan riding? Doing wheelie's, fast acceleration, ability to take some air now and then. No I will not be doing 10 feet vertical drops. But I might be tempted to ride in a style not really suitable for a man my age. Meaning I would love to be able to wheelie a few hundred yards. The speed of the wheelie is not really critical. Riding at the balance point is great fun even at lower speed.

So where would I get air? Like riding a trail seeing natural "jumps", or even do a quick tour of bmx trail. Jumping correctly at those is not really a lot of stress on frame, wheels and suspensions. Overshoots might hurt both the rider and the bike
Well in reality that kind of riding will not happen every weekend. But I would love the bike to handle it.

And 30-40 mph is also important for commuting. Even bigger top speed for shorter periods is a bonus.

I've done a lot of playing with the famous simulator as I was told that the cromotor is in fact in there, it is the very first motor with no name. So I will try to put together a battery pack that will give med the speed and range I need. Seems hard to overheat that motor btw.

 

[999zip999]

Hooligan bike first ride and you don't like it.
Just a first bike with good battery. And get started.