Planning Second Bike - Need Advice

[stypherfire]

Winter is here and i am taking my bike slower and out less. I am loving having a ebike and i want to thank everyone who helped me. I am such a lurker and have been poking around the forums for an idea for my next bike and have finally decided after some thought. Please let me know which would be more viable and any ideas you would provide me with.

The Muscle:
Enough torque to carry around 330 Pounds of human flesh at a modest speed 20 - 30 KM/Hours >U< (2 people not just me. i aint that big XD)
Sturdy Frame that can support the weight of 2 people
Full Suspension as Toronto, ON has really crappy roads.

The Brains:
I want to be able to ferry around my girlfriend! Driving my car sucks up so much money and i would like to be able to bring her places on my bike! I plan on having a extension section where i can just connect a back seat when i need it. Also i have found that i need a motor with greater acceleration as i find that the start up is way to slow.

I gotta go bike home for now. I will be posting more details in a bit!

 

[dogman dan]

Frankenbike.

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=28389&hilit=bouncing+betty Without the panniers, this could carry two easy. I need to update the thread, nowdays it's sporting a 5304 rear motor, and a 48v 40 amp controller.

30 mph down a washboard dirt road is no problem for this monster.

With better roads of course, any of the many good longtail cargo bikes would do it, or a bike with an extracycle kit. Or just get a vintage tandem and motor it. The problem for me was, a bad lower back makes me LOVE full suspension. So I just had to have it on my longtail.

 

[Chalo]

Full suspension will be ultra hokey on a bike with that wide a load range. Either it won't work right when you're alone, or it won't work right when your passenger is aboard. It might not work right ever, depending on the fork. A long wheelbase bike puts more of the rider's weight on the front, and not all boingy forks are tunable enough to cope with deviations from their intended purpose.

I suggest a Yuba Mundo longtail with a large clearance fork and Surly Black Floyd 26x3.8" tires:

From this thread on mtbr.com

My fattest bike only takes 26x3.0" tires, but let me tell you there is no city street so bad that a 3" tire at <20psi won't make it feel okay. Fat tires will give you the load capacity, durability, suspension, versatility, and easy configuration for different loads and purposes that your planned bike will require.

Chalo

 

[dogman dan]

Definitely more solid than my frankenbike. No breakage yet, but it was made from cheap bikes, so there you go.

He asked how to have suspension and carry two people. I'm unaware of any production bikes that really meet that criteria. Lots of cool cargo bikes from holland, but I haven't seen FS on them. Your suggestion is spot on for getting the most out of no suspension, fat tires, a yuba or a surly, something very stout framed. It should be fine for him, despite his deisre for suspension.

Trouble with the frankenbike is the suspension on mine does come from bikes that are extra hokey. I can't improve the back much without major custom work, like build a swingarms from scratch. The front forks on bouncing betty are due to be upgraded in a big way. I have the marzocchi bombers, I just haven't taken the time to bolt em on.

But even though hokey, I'd like to see you ride side by side with me down say, 10 miles of washboard dirt road at 30 mph on a non suspension longtail. Bet your hands and ass would be number at the end of the ride than mine. Some of my city streets are worse in a way than washboard dirt roads. Don't you also have heat cracked roads in Austin? He most likely just has bottomless potholes up north. Then the cars make you ride right through them.

You are definitely correct, that suspension would need to be tuned to various weights. The same suspension setup for one rider would not work well for two. A good suspension setup can be re tuned in a few min, but it does take longer than just saying hop on the back.

You are definitley correct, that choosing the wrong forks or whatever, then tuning them badly, can result in a bike that rides far worse than any non suspension bike. With suspension, you have the opportuinty to screw it up royally. But it's pretty easy to see which end needs more or less preload. The key thing is components that are adjustable. For that, air shocks are the bomb for me.

The question then becomes do you desire suspension or need suspension. After framing houses in my youth, yes personally I need it to help my destroyed lumbar disks. The bike doesn't need it so much, I do.

 

[rjoe]

What's the budget?

 

[llile]

Long tail is definitely a good way to go if you want something sturdy that will hold a lotta weight. An electrified longtail bike would really rock. If you want 30MPH you'll need to be thinking about a minimum of 600 and ideally 1200 watts of motor. I can just barely get up to 30MPH with 600 watts on a recumbent on a long flat, average more like 18 or 20 MPH.

Playing with the http://ebikes.ca/simulator/ Simulator if you assume a mountain bike with a Crystalyte HS3440 motor, 48V battery at 15 AH, 40A controller, you could top out at 30MPH/47KPH on the flat. With a 150KG/330 LB load and a 6% grade you'd still be able to do 20MPH/33KPH but you'd overheat after about 5 miles. If you aren't in the mountains that would work. You'd have up to 16 miles range, not bad for a grocery-getter.

 

[dogman dan]

Someday, cargo bikes build specifically for powerfull motors will exist. One that I know of now comes from here. http://www.designlogicbikes.com/products.html

Hope the budget is big, so you can have them build a FS version, or just a version with a head tube angle good for a shock fork.

 

[stypherfire]

Actually i wanted to add some things about what i wanted to do. Welding. Been reading up on it and am very interested in learning to make my own frame. I live in Toronto ON and cannot find any specific place or person who knows or teaches how to weld a bike frame specifically. Anyone know where i could find someone who teaches this (for a cost obviously). I want to design a bike frame for myself.

 

[wingtip]

I would search for a used steel framed tandem and start there. For suspension go with suspended seat posts, preferably a thud buster and maybe an old girvin flex stem on the front. (only problem here is that many tandem Mtb have a 1.25" steerer...) If you start with a mountain style frame and you should have room for 2.2" wide tires so get some extra Cush there. Ditch the stoker cranks and use the second bottom bracket as a jack shaft for a midmount direct drive hub motor to the cranks sorta like a stokemonkey.
A quick check of the local Craigslist and there are several tandems in the $200 to $400 range.
Trying to carry a passenger on a bike not really designed to carry a passenger sounds a bit dangerous to me. The factory long tails are capable but costly. If you're hell bent on FS you can find newer mountain tandems that have front and rear suspension but you better be prepared to spend some bucks. You're better off looking for something designed around a suspension fork only and go with the thud buster.

 

[stypherfire]

I have actually just found a place that makes custom bikes/ adjustments via welding and stuff. They have agreed to teach me how to do this (for a price still being negiotiated). Apprently they are literally 2 mins away from me..... who knew.. Now that i have found someone to teach me bike frame welding/fabrication, i have decided on custom making my own bike. That being the case, now i am looking for bike designs. Making a few myself however never having any training in design / fabrication, i might make something structurally unsound. Does anyone have any ideas in terms on Motor/Batterys(I am pretty happy with my Turnigy Lipo's)/FS and stuff? Hopefully if i am any good at welding (apprently you need a knack for it) i can start helping others on endless-sphere make frames at cost (ergo the price it cost me to buy parts and stuff) !

 

[el_walto]

Are you going to be welding aluminum? I think that can be quite complicated.

http://www.lincolnelectric.com/en-ca/support/welding-solutions/Pages/aluminum-faqs-detail.aspx

 

[Chalo]

Here's an idea that might get you thinking, courtesy of my friend Peter Cole in Boston:

 

[leffex]

I have actually just found a place that makes custom bikes/ adjustments via welding and stuff. They have agreed to teach me how to do this (for a price still being negiotiated).

Wow awesome

Good luck. I think ill do a course in welding however not bike specific you are lucky. And then you can work with this ebike customs stypherfire edition. Hehe

I need to takemy wife girlfriend on a dual bike like you as well in the future! I have decided to stash my car. Cost of running any car for me is at least 3000 dollars a year.

Im biking this winter first time, 20% slower but real good when mounted with spike tyres.

 

[stypherfire]

For my requirements, steel construct will definitly be better. i am considering going with FS build with some kinda BMX style standing axle bars. Hoping to also isolate the battery pack/controller (Maybe even the motor) with a type of pnuematic center suspensed cage. Ill try and come up with some sketchs as i have 0 ability with 3D Model Design. Does anyone know of mid mounted motors that have the drive chain sitting in the middle of the motor? Like a hub motor but with the chain running through the middle of the motor. (Around the Circumference of the motor)

 

[stypherfire]

Also just a random question as well but here is my current set up. My CA refuses to measure my speed so i control bike via W's. The motor is a 500W mac motor. What is the max Wattage i should be pusing my bike constantly. Like logic says that if it is a 500W motor, if i want to run in non-stop for a while it should be at 500W. Please correct me if i am wrong.

Mac 500W Motor Rear Kit
26" Rims
6T @ 390 RPMS winding
9 fet 30A Controller
DNP 11T 7 speed free-wheel

~$600

Battery
Turnigy 5000mAh 6S1P 22.2v 20C pack x 4
Complete Hobby King Lipo Protection Kit fro Methtek

Charger
HYPERION EOS 1420i NET3 CHARGER - 1S-14S, 20A MAX, 550W

Power Supply
24V 23A 600W Regulated Switching Power Supply

Throttle
thumb type (separate 3 speed switch)

Others
GRIN Universal Rear Torque Arm, thick 1/4 inch stainless steel.
Waterproof Digital Voltmeter DC 15V To 120V Red Led Voltage Digital Panel Meter
Cycle Analyst CA-LDS

 

[el_walto]

The motor is a 500W mac motor. What is the max Wattage i should be pusing my bike constantly. Like logic says that if it is a 500W motor, if i want to run in non-stop for a while it should be at 500W.

Here is what cell_man had to say about temperature of the MAC Motor:

Mac have been supplying these motors for quite some time, as have BMC. If the magnets get so hot to be getting damaged I think we would be hearing a lot about this already. The motor will get hot if used hard, but people have been using them hard for a long time with no issues. The motor is rated for 150degC, the wire is actually 180degC. Hall sensors are 150degC and I don't receive many complaints about hall sensors getting cooked.

BTW, additional wire from the motor with black heat shrin covering it is the temp sensor output, measure that reference the black hall wire to get the temperature.

Not sure if you got a version with a temperature probe. Many people are buying them are running them at up to 2000Watts are far as i know. At 30Amps you may find you do not need to set a watt limit depending on hills etc.

 

[stypherfire]

@_@ ive been limiting myself to 500-600 watts. Guess i have been being too reserved. Ok i guess i will ramp up my usage to 1000 Watts