Alan B
100 GW
I suspect the Volt is a much better candidate for this than the Prius, or just get a Spark and enjoy.
Questions for Toyota Prius owners.
- Thread starter SamTexas
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o00scorpion00o
100 kW
I seriously wouldn't install what would add up to nearly 10,000. Euros for half an ev. There would never be a payback.
What if the bms fails or cells fail just out of warranty?
What if it costs too much to repair if it brakes?
For me it would be far more cost effective to convert the Prius to LPG. At least there are no batteries to risk failure.
What if the bms fails or cells fail just out of warranty?
What if it costs too much to repair if it brakes?
For me it would be far more cost effective to convert the Prius to LPG. At least there are no batteries to risk failure.
wb9k
10 kW
A123's first venture into the automotive world was the Hymotion L5, a plug-in conversion kit for the Gen I and II Prius. I have one in my Gen II. From the dialog I see on PriusChat about PIS and Enginer, the Hymotion pack was probably by far the best-engineered option that ever was. That's not to say it was without problems, but show me a program of any kind that is.
As the proud owner of a Hymotion Prius (the world's first crash-test certified PHEV, by the way), I can wholeheartedly recommend you avoid the whole upfitting thing and just buy an OEM PHEV like the Plug-In Prius, or the Volt, or one of Ford's offerings. Upfitting a regular HEV into a PHEV is not cheap, and it simply doesn't pay off or perform anywhere near as well as the cars I just listed. The Prius was never intended to run in full EV mode for any length of time and, while it can be persuaded to do so up to even highway speeds, it takes enormous patience and effort to squeeze an honest 100 mpg out of these things unless you fool the car into thinking it's out of gas, and then you find out how anemic the electric motor alone really is. Going up hills, "out of gas mode" can be dangerous, and at speeds above about 50 mph, you risk damaging the transaxle of the car.
I love my little PHEV, but it's not for everyone, and it's simply not up to the standards set by today's OEM PHEV's which will rip right along in full EV mode and not turn on the ICE until it really needs to come on. (Did I mention the warm-up penalty imposed by emissions rules in an upfitted Prius? You can't kill the ICE for the first minutes until the engine reaches temperature, even if you're sitting still.) Enough said.
(minor edit for clarity)
As the proud owner of a Hymotion Prius (the world's first crash-test certified PHEV, by the way), I can wholeheartedly recommend you avoid the whole upfitting thing and just buy an OEM PHEV like the Plug-In Prius, or the Volt, or one of Ford's offerings. Upfitting a regular HEV into a PHEV is not cheap, and it simply doesn't pay off or perform anywhere near as well as the cars I just listed. The Prius was never intended to run in full EV mode for any length of time and, while it can be persuaded to do so up to even highway speeds, it takes enormous patience and effort to squeeze an honest 100 mpg out of these things unless you fool the car into thinking it's out of gas, and then you find out how anemic the electric motor alone really is. Going up hills, "out of gas mode" can be dangerous, and at speeds above about 50 mph, you risk damaging the transaxle of the car.
I love my little PHEV, but it's not for everyone, and it's simply not up to the standards set by today's OEM PHEV's which will rip right along in full EV mode and not turn on the ICE until it really needs to come on. (Did I mention the warm-up penalty imposed by emissions rules in an upfitted Prius? You can't kill the ICE for the first minutes until the engine reaches temperature, even if you're sitting still.) Enough said.
(minor edit for clarity)
Alan B
100 GW
Sounds like excellent advice.
o00scorpion00o
100 kW
I can't remember the company but one of them hack the ecu for ev only mode at up to 70 mph, though the engine will come on when it wants more power so you don't have to pull over and switch the car off and back on.
Given the cost of batteries it just isn't economical to convert a normal prius, given that fuel is twice the price it still isn't economical.
It would cost me 8,000 Euro's to buy a 2nd hand leaf from the U.K with the sale of the prius, a full ev with a good 20 kwh worth of usable energy and less than 40K miles. It would probably cost more to convert the prius with 10kwh worth of batteries etc. and with 109 K miles.
Converting to LPG would be the most cost effective and probably cost to run here what it costs in North America on regular petrol !
Given the cost of batteries it just isn't economical to convert a normal prius, given that fuel is twice the price it still isn't economical.
It would cost me 8,000 Euro's to buy a 2nd hand leaf from the U.K with the sale of the prius, a full ev with a good 20 kwh worth of usable energy and less than 40K miles. It would probably cost more to convert the prius with 10kwh worth of batteries etc. and with 109 K miles.
Converting to LPG would be the most cost effective and probably cost to run here what it costs in North America on regular petrol !
wb9k
10 kW
The Hymotion pack requests EV mode continuously while it is powered on. On flat ground, you can achieve full EV mode (at least that's what it looks like on the power monitor) up to 70 mph or even more. Actual freeway mileage for me ranges from 70 to 100 mpg depending mostly on conditions.
vax
100 W
Can regular AC controller be used in Prius? I mean, remove ICE alltogether, new controller and big battery pack?
wb9k
10 kW
With the ~66hp electric motor in the Gen I and II, I would not recommend as the car would be dangerously underpowered. You'd have to upgrade the motor, controller, and battery. Might as well start with a traditional gasser.
SamTexas said:
I drove the 2013 prius about 3 weeks ago. EV Mode basically means that it can't power the car over 30mph and you can't accelerate too hard. If you're on the streets, forget it; the gas will kick in as you try to accelerate. But, in a parking lot, with careful /light/ use of the accelerator, it's *possible* to stay in EV mode though it has a tendency to kick into gas mode once the accelerator gets pressed in a 'normal' amount which makes it useless for most settings. ECO Mode is more practical for city settings.
o00scorpion00o
100 kW
best to just wait until the leaf can be got cheap !
LeftieBiker
100 kW
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We are leasing a 2013 Prius PHEV (plug-in). EV will power the car up to 62MPH, and it has a real world EV range of from 8 - 15 miles. Some people get a lot less, but they probably aren't used to driving for economy. We actually do get close to 15 miles EV range. The PHEV isn't much of an EV (although we use it to run local errands in EV mode) but it's an amazing 'super hybrid'. The running fuel economy average stands at 74MPG, and I got 99MPG driving home from the dealership. Now for the price: it cost less to lease than a Prius II. Less down and less per month. The 2014 PHEV has a lower list price than the 2013, although with fewer incentives.
Gregor
10 W
Thanks for the real world tips leftiebiker--is there any improvements in the 2014 model? Do these allow for quick DC charging?
o00scorpion00o
100 kW
The pip prius isn't available here. But I could get,one in the U.K . The pip is a lot more expensive 2nd hand than the Leaf so unless you do a lot of miles further than a leaf can go then why would you bother ?
Alan B
100 GW
We looked at the plug in Prius, too much money for not enough range, and inadequate cargo capacity. The Leaf wouldn't make many of our trips, and again little cargo space. The Prius V has amazing cargo room and no range limit and 2-4x the mileage of most trucks and SUVs and 500 mile range on a small gas tank.
o00scorpion00o
100 kW
Yeah the range on the Leaf is restrictive but it could be good as a 2nd car ?
I could do 120 miles a day in the Leaf no problem with fast charging on route, though when you go off the charger routes it does become a pain. And there are many places that the Leaf would be a pain to take. But you could take the 2nd car ?
The problem with the Leaf is when the battery ages, rumours circulating now suggest about 15% loss after 75-80 K miles, which would make your 70 mile range ev now 59.5
Another option is to convert the Prius to LPG, I can get it now for about 74C per litre works out about 3.72 USD per US Gallon. Compared to about 8 USD per US Gallon for petrol. And a little less for diesel.
How much is petrol in the U.S these days ?
I can get about 53.28 US MPG in my MK II prius, so you'd get about 48.29 on LPG, so it could be a really cheap way to get around.
I found a cheap Volvo S80 2.0T 180 hp for my brother last weekend and converting it to LPG would be a really good idea as they take LPG very well and it's a lovely smooth 5 cylinder engine compared to noisy rough diesel engine, and running costs would be similar even consuming a lot more lpg. And far better for the environment than this Co2 obsessed E.U.
The S80 is a really comfortable quiet car.
I could do 120 miles a day in the Leaf no problem with fast charging on route, though when you go off the charger routes it does become a pain. And there are many places that the Leaf would be a pain to take. But you could take the 2nd car ?
The problem with the Leaf is when the battery ages, rumours circulating now suggest about 15% loss after 75-80 K miles, which would make your 70 mile range ev now 59.5
Another option is to convert the Prius to LPG, I can get it now for about 74C per litre works out about 3.72 USD per US Gallon. Compared to about 8 USD per US Gallon for petrol. And a little less for diesel.
How much is petrol in the U.S these days ?
I can get about 53.28 US MPG in my MK II prius, so you'd get about 48.29 on LPG, so it could be a really cheap way to get around.
I found a cheap Volvo S80 2.0T 180 hp for my brother last weekend and converting it to LPG would be a really good idea as they take LPG very well and it's a lovely smooth 5 cylinder engine compared to noisy rough diesel engine, and running costs would be similar even consuming a lot more lpg. And far better for the environment than this Co2 obsessed E.U.
The S80 is a really comfortable quiet car.
Alan B
100 GW
Fuel here is about $3.80 per gallon now.
The Leaf has a temperature control problem on their battery. Should be liquid cooled, is air cooled, a big mistake. Battery life in warm climates will be a problem.
The Leaf has a temperature control problem on their battery. Should be liquid cooled, is air cooled, a big mistake. Battery life in warm climates will be a problem.
o00scorpion00o
100 kW
Shit, you can drive on petrol for the price we can drive here on LPG. That's crazy !
It must be cool to be able to drive so cheap !
Nissan I believe have adopted the battery chemistry to be much better able to withstand high temperatures for the 2014 model. But it's to only be available for hot climates.
Heat isn't going to be a problem for this neck of the woods that's for sure !
I'd say for Ireland and the U.K, cycling will be the greatest issue.
There is the leaf spy app that shows battery condition, but as being discovered, when the battery temps fall in colder weather so does the available ah % reading. So only in the summer or when the battery temp reads 20 deg C will it be known how much the battery has degraded.
A 40 kwh battery in Leaf II would be really nice for the same price, cycling would be much less of an issue as people would most likely not use all the range.
Tesla model S 85 kwh range the average man can only dream of, maybe in 10 years.
It must be cool to be able to drive so cheap !
Nissan I believe have adopted the battery chemistry to be much better able to withstand high temperatures for the 2014 model. But it's to only be available for hot climates.
Heat isn't going to be a problem for this neck of the woods that's for sure !
I'd say for Ireland and the U.K, cycling will be the greatest issue.
There is the leaf spy app that shows battery condition, but as being discovered, when the battery temps fall in colder weather so does the available ah % reading. So only in the summer or when the battery temp reads 20 deg C will it be known how much the battery has degraded.
A 40 kwh battery in Leaf II would be really nice for the same price, cycling would be much less of an issue as people would most likely not use all the range.
Tesla model S 85 kwh range the average man can only dream of, maybe in 10 years.
LeftieBiker
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Gregor said:
No, its the same car. They just cut the price a bit for both models, and removed a few standard features from the Advanced model to pay for it. The Base model is the same. BTW, Winter driving really hurts the MPG! I just blocked the lower grille tgo conserve heat, but if you want much heat from it the engine will run often, killing economy.
o00scorpion00o
100 kW
There is a plug in version you know ? it's got about 4.4 kwh lithium battery. It's actually a fair bit more expensive than the Leaf over here, actually it can only be got from the U.K atm they don't sell it here.
Even the regular prius is a lot more expensive than the Leaf, making me think I'd not buy a prius even 2nd hand again. I'm dying to get my hands on a leaf in reasonable condition for a reasonable price.
We got a good few fast chargers that would most likely mean I could get away with 95% of my driving with the leaf. I just couldn't be bothered paying for batteries and all associated hardware to convert the prius, then risk a bad bms, no way, too much money and then how long would the batteries last ? way too risky.
Even the regular prius is a lot more expensive than the Leaf, making me think I'd not buy a prius even 2nd hand again. I'm dying to get my hands on a leaf in reasonable condition for a reasonable price.
We got a good few fast chargers that would most likely mean I could get away with 95% of my driving with the leaf. I just couldn't be bothered paying for batteries and all associated hardware to convert the prius, then risk a bad bms, no way, too much money and then how long would the batteries last ? way too risky.
LeftieBiker
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Um, that's what I've been talking about. We are leasing one - the "Base" model.
o00scorpion00o
100 kW
LeftieBiker said:
HAHA I just re-read a few posts back !
So how far on average do you get in regular hybrid mode before the battery runs out ? 4.4 kwh isn't a lot.
LeftieBiker
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o00scorpion00o said:LeftieBiker said:
HAHA I just re-read a few posts back !
So how far on average do you get in regular hybrid mode before the battery runs out ? 4.4 kwh isn't a lot.
13 - 15 miles. Those getting 6 miles aren't used to driving an EV.
o00scorpion00o
100 kW
LeftieBiker said:
I thought 13-15 miles is what you got in EV mode ? I mean what do you get in regular hybrid with engine and ev ?
LeftieBiker
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Sorry, misread the question. I don't know: I don't usually drive the car, and my housemate usually uses up all or most of EV mode range by driving in EV in cities.
o00scorpion00o
100 kW
LeftieBiker said:
No problem.
I think, judging by the cost of the Prius Plug in in the U.K that the Leaf is a far cheaper option and better because it runs a lot further on electricity.
I'm not saying the plug in prius is bad and would suit someone who can't fast charge, but I really think Toyota could have done a lot better.
You can get a leaf in the U.K with 30,000 miles for 12,500 Pounds or 20,000 USD , and that's probably not far off the price of a brand new one in the U.S ?
A plug in Prius would be much more expensive, there is only 1 available that I can find, a 2013 with 4k Miles for 32,354 USD and it would cost 2,500 USD more to tax here in Ireland with our wonderful super taxes, only fully electric cars are exempt.
So I would ask myself, do I really need to spend 14,500 USD (including the extra tax for registering here) ? That's a lot of extra cash for the odd time the Leaf range is not suitable, I can take the Prius if the range does not suit, or it's too inconvenient.
I see the pip is rated as 134 (imp mpg) that's pretty good, but the longer you drive it the less that would be. For instance on an 80 miles commute it would not be 134 mpg, but it would do a lot of smaller trips so it would be interesting to see what I'd get per tank !
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