Rear all axle v3 with torque sensor

[FuzzyWuzzy]

All-Axle Hub Motor - Grin Products - Product Info

The All Axle motor takes the simplicity and robustness of the direct drive hub motor, and optimizes it for the modern bike platform. This hub is fully compatible with all quick release and thru-axle bike forks, it is over 30% lighter than standard generic hubs of similar power (4kg vs 6kg), and...

ebikes.ca

Came out in the Christmas newsletter. Super stoked to see the torque sending quality

 

[neptronix]

Hmmm i've always liked throttle because i like my bikes high power, and maybe sometimes we just wanna pedal it with the power turned off.

Would be interested in seeing how this works out in practice.

Really nice motor, i want one myself!

 

[DanGT86]

There is some really neat tech in that motor. I'm really hoping these are available for purchase separately. I would love to make a hub using one of these on the pedal side and a direct drive sprocket on the left side. Mid drive with regen and true torque sensing that uses standard bottom brackets would be my ideal setup.

 

[amberwolf]

I asked them about selling those separately (along with some questions about their variable-regen ebrake lever) and got zero response about those torque sensing cassettes. They would be useful for jackshafts or other systems where you need to sense torque but cannot use a BB TS anywhere in the chainline, and where the motor is not in or at the end of the chainline.



They did respond that the variable brake lever only has the variable output, no "ebrake switch", so there are a number of systems and uses it is not useful for (not without adding some form of external switch, which is just silly to have to do, or modifying the lever itself, which may not be possible for certain types of mods).


They're working on something that would take the variable signal and also make an on/off output. That would be pretty simple to do with an Arduino, PIC, etc., even if there was no analog input if you used a comparator.

I don't really get why not just have a switch installed in the lever to start with....

 

[offGridDownUnder]

I asked them about selling those separately

With several of their previous custom freehubs, they have begun supplying just that part for repairs as the item is not available otherwise. Perhaps in time...

 

[DanGT86]

Yeah. Surely there is some option for a customer who buys this motor to change to the other brand of cassette. There is no way Grin would tell them no.

 

[amberwolf]

A google image search

torque sensing cassette freehub - Google Search

finds a number of interesting things (some of which I pasted below), though most I don't see for sale anywhere:

E-Bike Torque and Cadence Sensors | Methode Sensor Technologies

Methode Sensor Technologies creates innovative sensing solutions and develops new technologies to suit our clients’ needs, including e-bike torque and cadence sensors.

www.methodesensor.com

Grin's own pages appear to show this specific sensor is used in the TSM-A5

TSM-A5 - Retired - Product Info

Grin Technologies

ebikes.ca

Cassette Torque Sensor TORG4B-C_Kclamber Electric Technology Corp

Cassette Torque Sensor TORG4B-C-Kclamber Electric Technology Corp-●Rated voltage: 5V<br /> ●Communication protocols:UART/CAN<br /> ●Output voltage (DCV): 0.7~4.8V <br /> ●ZTV Initial voltage: 0.7±0.1V <br />

en.kclamberele.com

Hub motor integrated sensors_Product Portfolio_Kclamber Electric Technology Corp

Hub motor integrated sensors-Kclamber Electric Technology Corp

en.kclamberele.com

which appear to have cassette and thread-on freewheel options

Truckrun's pages indicate they're using the Kclamberele TS unit

Built-in Cassette Torque Sensor: Elevating Hub Motors to Mid-Drive Sensations - TruckRun

Introducing the Hub Motor Built-in Cassette Torque Sensor's principles & benefits. Easy installation, mid-drive-like riding feel, improved motor responsiveness, energy efficiency & extended battery life.

www.truckrun-e.com

Rear torque motor-Lvbu ebike kit,electric bicycle conversion kit controller motor battery.

torque sensor hub motor/Mid drive motor/Small size / light weight/High quality rear motor /Cassete Torque sensor /middle drive motor/High quality sensors/stock/No resistance /ready to ship/quick delivery/quick shipping/free tax/no duty/no tax/High-strength aluminum alloy /

www.lvbu.tech

 

[amberwolf]

The thread-on freewheel ones are even more interesting than the freehubs, for use outside a motor wheel.

Also, if you have a normal bicycle wheel at the end of the chainline, you can "install" these sensors in that, though you might have to make a custom hub, or modify your existing one, to mate them together.

They also make "hook and claw" sensors that have no image/etc but are described in a way that implies they're dropout sensors.


BTW, the BCD for those six holes on the Kclamberele units is 44mm, same as ISO disc brake rotor mounts. So making or modifying a regular wheel hub or adding one of these sensors to a hubmotor not designed for one wouldn't even be that hard.

The hardest part is getting the wiring out; you'd have to groove the axle for the thin power/signal/data cable.


From this page for the thread-on freewheel version sensor Torque Sensor TORG5B-D2* E(8Bit)_Kclamber Electric Technology Corp


These sensors also have other features, as described on that page:

TORG5B-D2E thread-on freewheel torque sensor, is a non-contact induction torque sensor. Without changing the design of the bicycle (like frame, bottom bracket, drive train) , it offers a perfect solution to drive systems used on some bikes with high-end components, especially those with 6/7/8 speed gears or the 14T single speed models. The highly integrated torque sensor solution, simplifies the wiring of the ebike by integrating the sensors into rear motor or hub, guaranteeing the clean look of the bike, which is very desirable to the consumers. The communication is through UART serial port, which can withstand strong interference. Besides the torque sensing, we also integrate signals for pedal frequency, bike speed measuring and motor temperature into the system, allowing us to tell the mechanical gear shifting, which guarantees higher safety and better ridding comfort.

Rated voltage	5V
Communication protocol	UART
Output voltage (DCV)	0.7~4.8V
ZTV Initial voltage	0.7±0.1V
Torque signal Resolution	35mv/N.m
RPM Signal（per cycle）	18 pcs
Bike speed measuring(per cycle)	9 pcs

Temperature Measuring

-30-180℃ (UART 8Bit )

 

[taiwwa]

So how did they reduce the weight by so much. And why is it that other manufacturers make their motors so heavy? There must be some tradeoff with such a dramatic weight reduction

 

[neptronix]

A couple guesses without opening one up.

here's ya typical 1000W rated hub..

Here's the grin hub's internals..

- The stator core has a fraction of the metal on it, and looks like aluminum instead of the stamped steel seen above
- Stator core has a hollow, wider very strong axle
- The case is very weight optimized
- Less stray copper ( efficiency/power advantage )
- Strong magnets ( power advantage )
- Less backing metal on the magnet ring
- Probably some other stuff i don't notice!

 

[taiwwa]

A couple guesses without opening one up.

here's ya typical 1000W rated hub..

Here's the grin hub's internals..

- The stator core has a fraction of the metal on it, and looks like aluminum instead of the stamped steel seen above
- Stator core has a hollow, wider very strong axle
- The case is very weight optimized
- Less stray copper ( efficiency/power advantage )
- Strong magnets ( power advantage )
- Less backing metal on the magnet ring
- Probably some other stuff i don't notice!

I would guess that a large part of it is existing investments in manufacturing equipment. It looks to me that the cnc cutting is expensive and slow though it yields real benefits.

 

[neptronix]

Yeah, Grin manufactures most, if not all of that motor these days. It's an improved design based on the 9C motor.

 

[FuzzyWuzzy]

Does anyone know if the TSM-A5 Torque Sensor works with 72V batteries?

 

[offGridDownUnder]

The Grin page for the motor notes a special Baserunner with a modification to work with the sensor. Baserunners do not handle 72V.

The TSM kit comes with the Baserunner_TSM controller. In addition to the modified wiring on the L10 plug, this controller has an additional 4 pin Higo plug (provided with a 4 pin Higo to 5 pin JST adapter) to feed the torque signal from the motor to the Cycle Analyst.

 

[offGridDownUnder]

From the page for the motor:

This device uses the same L1019 plug as Grin's other motors, but has a torque signal and temperature signal on the two extra wires, rather than a wheel speed and temperature signal. As a result, it is only compatible with specially modified versions of our Baserunner_L10 motor controller to take advantage of the internal torque sensor.

I suspect you can use the motor with a Phaserunner at 72V, but not the torque sensor, and I don't know if the unmodified L1019 plug from a Phaserunner will burn the torque sensor when plugged in and powered on.

 

[amberwolf]

I don't know if the unmodified L1019 plug from a Phaserunner will burn the torque sensor when plugged in and powered on.

For that, get one of the extension cables and cut into it enough to access the relevant wires, to send the TS signal / supply voltages / etc wherever it's got to go in your system to operate correctly.

 

[amberwolf]

Apparently Stancecoke has been experimenting with Kclamber TS's here

Analyse Getriebenabenmotor mit integriertem Drehmomentsensor von Kclamber

Mich hat doch zu sehr die Neugierde getrieben und ich habe mir den Motor bei Aliexpress bestellt. Lieferung über FedEx per Luftfracht, der Motor war deutlich schneller da, als in der Kaufabwicklung angekündigt. Wie häufig bei Phoebe Liu EVParts. Keinerlei Stress mit Zoll oder CE-Zertifikat...

www.pedelecforum.de

 

[neptronix]

So anyway, who is planning to check one of these out?

The 'Lightest bike' mid drive is my next to test. I don't expect it to work at all. The rear all axle from Grin looks like a piece of art on the other hand and having a DD that's a hair lighter than a MAC is a dream come true.

 

[amberwolf]

I'd love the GAA for an SB Cruiser upgraded-trike design, because I could "easily" create slide-on single-sided axle mounts for them where the torque arm was part of the inboard side of the trike itself; essentially like the tadpole front GAA mounts would be plus some electrical connection engineering for easy mount/dismount, (actually for my SBC mk II the front GAA would be preferable, and the rear GAA with TS could actually go on the front wheel where the pedal drivetrain would lead to.) A nut (perhaps even a "spinner" type like some hundred-year-old cars used) would secure the wheel to the axle and press it into the torque arm fitting (splines, etc), as well as the motor wiring connector.

But I don't imagine I'll get to try that out until someone has a pair of them for sale used real real cheap (unlikely), and I get enough time and energy all at once to do it.

(I already have "plans" in mind for doing essentially this with a pair of QS205's I have one and a half of, or even the Ultramotors I already have, by coring the stator mount/support and installing the necessary tubing/wiring/etc and replacing the covers / bearings to fit. Probably will never get around to that, realistically; it's one of several design ideas I've come up with for easy-on/off motor wheels I'd love to try out though.)

 

[stancecoke]

Apparently Stancecoke has been experimenting with Kclamber TS's here

Yes, and I can say it's the cleanest and smartest system I've ever tested. Just one cable from the battery integrated controller to the motor. All you need is a controller with a second UART channel. You get all information, speed, torque, temperature, spinning yes/no by UART over the ninth (white) wire of the usual motor connector, that is normally used for the speed signal only. The torque sensor is powered by the 5V, that supplies the motor Hall sensors anyway.
I had to write the suitable firmware on my own last year, now Lishui has it's own firmware. The European Lishui representative has reported his experience in the German forum a few weeks ago.

Steuerung für Motor mit integriertem Drehmomentsensor von Kclamber

Ich hatte mir auf der diesjährigen "Eurobike" zwei Motoren mit integriertem Drehmomentsensor von Kclamber besorgt und mir dann von meinen Kollegen 15 Controller schicken lassen zum testen, was soll ich sagen, ich bin völlig begeistert. Mit nur 3 Steckverbindungen zum Fahren wie ich mir das immer...

www.pedelecforum.de

Of course grintech will implement the Kclamber support in the CycleAnalyst (see the new version with common colour displays!), but there is no need for additional hardware, if the motorcontroller itself can do the job
This year I modified a Shengyi X2 motor with the Kclamber sensor, as the motor from Phoebe Liu was too noisy for my ears
The only thing we can't answer yet, is the reliability of the system.
The main advantage of the Kclamber over the Innotorq cassette sensor is the inner diameter, so you can use it with through axle systems.

regards
stancecoke

 

[B_c]

I welcome having more options to install my bicycle with a torque sensor in various ways.

I also believe that utilizing UART and CANBUS protocols is much better than an analog signal that travels through the frame, as it can experience interference and is more sensitive than a digital signal.

My concern as a hobbyist is that everything is becoming more and more closed. It would be good if at least the protocols were open.

 

[stancecoke]

---

It would be good if at least the protocols were open.

As long as the communication is not encrypted, there will be someone who develops the protocol backwards. See Bafang, Kingmeter, Kunteng, Bigstone display protocols, or the complete BionX CAN bus protocol. For the Kclamber I had to do that job myself, as Phoebe Liu had zero information and Kclamber did'nt support me. I changed some e-mails with them, but they just asked, why I am interested in that details.

regards
stancecoke

 

[B_c]

Yes, but I have a Bafang bicycle with a locked battery and controller from factory. Even though it is my bike I need to go to the dealer and pay them to unlock it and/or buy a compatible part. Provided I have my original receipt. Great for safety which I appreciate but a bit closed. I guess they are using the BESST or BESSTPRO.

Anyway, this means that if something malfunctions it is a bit trickier to repair. Or if I need to buy a new battery there is a cost associated with it for whatever reason I need to replace it.

 

[amberwolf]

Sounds like time to build your own second bike from community-supported parts, or at least those whose interconnections and communications are known and easily replaced with other similar parts.

 

[Chalo]

Yes, and I can say it's the cleanest and smartest system I've ever tested. Just one cable from the battery integrated controller to the motor. All you need is a controller with a second UART channel.

Ummm... yeah...

...but no. Under no circumstances would I use a "channel" to do a wire's job. That's formally requesting trouble that the tools in my pocket are helpless to fix.

The Van Moof debacle shows us what happens when bikes become more "smart" than actually smart.