Recumbent Trike Tandem

[hejo]

Hi
i am Heinz-Josef from Germany,
let me introduce some pictures of our special creation, a trike tandem, individually motorised using hub motors driving the chain via Rohloff-Gear hubs.
Reading here in the last weeks was very helpful and motivating.
Inspite of using a 5303 and a 408 Hubmotor, the CA from Justin helps to maintain legal requirements here in Germany (250W, max 25 km/h).
Nevertheless climbing 25% inclinations fully loaded (2 people, one dog, total payload 190 kg) is no problem at approx 5-6 km/h.
Our area is very hilly, cruising flat in the valleys only would not have required motors, but if you can gain 300-400m altitude the fun starts.
Our first priority was smooth and noise free operation. Our ideal cruising speed is 12-20 km/h listening to wind, water and birds...
This is the reason we refused the high speed gear motors providing noise levels of a drilling machine.
Even between hub motors and controllers we found remarkable differences in noise level.

more to come...
best regards from Germany

(lots of pictures of a trip along river Main with two tandems joined together can be seen on my friend´s page Rolf
http://rolf-tiemann.de/fahr-rad/tour_main-2/main-2.htm

Next project : an easy to operate loading setup for transportation :

 

[deecanio]

Hi Heinz-josef,

welcome to the forum, i'm sure the guys will have lots of questions for you on your setup.
looks very good and as a first question does that setup enable you to use your gears too? like some of the bottom bracket drives the guys have here.
By the way what batteries are you using?

thanks for the pictures, the scenery looks great!!!!


cheers


D

 

[hejo]

The main objective was to use the 14 gears.

Two freewheels are installed, on the hubmotor and on the crank.
Without the differntial it did not work, since offroad just minor inclination caused the driving wheel to slip.
Lowest gear gives 4.8 km/h at 280rpm of the hubmotor,
Highest gear results in approx 26 km/h.

Big concern was battery at the beginning, thus i purchased 3 battery packs (Konion) 10s6p approx 15 Ah, 41/32V.
Charging is done via adjustable Lab DC-Powersupply, 3.5A, 41V.
My objectve is to achieve best possible lifetime.

Actual results show that we can spend half day cruising with just one battery-pack, consuming around 12Ah for climbing totally 800m hight.

The motor system was designed to operate somehow as a lifting device to gain altitude.

We have now much more battery capacity than needed.

Problem however is breaking, We have installed Magura BIG for trikes, still the grinding noise is annoying!

I am looking for a solution to install an additional hub motor in the frontwheel to use just for regenerative breaking, mainly to get rid of the terrible noise going downhill for longer periods.
Feedback into battery would be an additional benefit.

 

[knoxie]

Hallo

Für die Eintragung der Abbildungen danke, waren eine große Idee außerdem sehr nett und du hast einen netten Job von der Einpassung der Motoren gebildet. Welche Batterien benutzt du?

Ich bezweifele sehr viel, daß mein Deutsch so gut wie dein Englisch! ist!

Viel Dank

Paul Knox

 

[BiGH]

Hello

For the entry of the figures, was very nice a large idea thanks
additionally and you a nice job of fitting the engines in formed.

Which batteries use does you?

I doubt very much that my German as well as your English! is!

Much thanks

Paul Knox

FYI


that is a cool trike!!!! or bi-trike. very good setup! welcome to the forums

 

[hejo]

The drive system including a nice German made controller (6V supply for lights included) much more efficent than crystalyte but, unfortunately very noisy!)

 

[hejo]

Our latest achievement : the "dog-bowl" to be used after a couple of kilometers for the now exhausted dog!
:lol:

 

[hejo]

After changing to the larger Crystalyte 5303
i am working now to get it tamed / smoothened by my CycleAnalyst, fighting with P and I Parameters for throttle and speed control.
This motor is very silent, but vibrates noticably at low rpm´s.

Any help / suggestions for suitable settings of P and I parameters highly appreciated!

 

[TylerDurden]

Beautiful. Nice dog-bowl, too... much easier than holding!

 

[xyster]

A very impressive tour bike system. Some vibration at low rpms is normal for the 5000-series hubmotors. For some reason, this vibration is much more pronounced at lower voltages. My 5304 at 80v vibrates for a short range between about 15 and 20kph, but vibrates through a longer speed range at 40v. Other X5 owners have reported a similar phenomenon.

 

[safe]

Wow, the Rohloff 14 speed hub. That's got to be nice to have such a high quality hub and such a wide range of gearing. With a 250 watt motor you can't expect to go very fast, but with 14 gears you will always be able to climb anything.

Any idea of the steepest hill you've climbed?

 

[fechter]

Very nice build! Welcome aboard!

There's not much you can do about the low speed vibration from the motor at this point. Perhaps a controller with a more sinusoidal output would make it quiter, but I have not seen any that are affordable. You could gear the motor lower, so it has to run at a higher rpm to avoid the noise.

What kind of batteries are Konion? (I'm not familiar with those).

The brakes seem like they should work well, but I guess the total weight is quite a bit. The disc brake on my scooter is fairly noisy too, but it does stop well.

It seems like sort of a waste to add a separate motor for regen, but using the drive motor for regen would be impossible in that configuration. I suppose you could get a front motor with a high number of turns so you could regen directly into the batteries without needing a regen controller.

 

[hejo]

Safe : Any idea of the steepest hill you've climbed?

we have a 25% inclination : 200m = 50m altitude gain
going at lowest gear (around 5 km/h) my CA shows 290Watts

but i assume the motor would easily withstand 350-500 Watts for quite some time (if i look at the figures discussed here)

 

[hejo]

fechter : the battery is Li Io Manganese cells 2500mAh, 18650

I am seriously thinking of getting a better controller, even an "unaffordable" one with current control and sinusoidal output.

I have ordered a testing kit
http://mcu.st.com/mcu/inchtml.php?fdir=pages&fnam=st7mc
with a ST7 microcontroller and a small induction motor to experiment with.

My future objectives :

- finding / developing an ideal controller for crystallyte motors
(including 6V powersupply for lights, 12V powersupply for heated clothes

-finding an ideal silent drive (BLDC, BLAC, switched reluctance....)... or

- even build a reverse flux Csiro motor myself

- running and controlling all drive and speed parameters via PDA / Windows CE device, with

- GPS navigation,
- cellular phone and
- MP3 Player and
- terrestric television (DVB-T) included... :lol: :lol:

 

[Deepkimchi]

Herzliche Wilkommen zum Forum!

Was fur eine Gerate, seht echt Gut aus ! Aber ich konnte wetten es war teur. Tandems sind zwei bis dreimal so Teure als normal.

Glaub' ich war im Miltenberg nur einmal. Wunderbare Ort...

Nach 20 Jahre Deutschland, 2 Jahre Israel, bin im Sud Korea gelandet.

Viel Gluck !

DK

 

[xyster]

What kind of batteries are Konion? (I'm not familiar with those).

Konion also makes the 1500mah 8-10C lithium manganese cells found in 3.0AH 18V Makita powertool packs. From my readings at rcgroups.com, these are another excellent next-gen lithium option in addition to the Emoli LiMn and A123 LiFePO4 cells. These makita/konion packs are often a bit cheaper per capacity too.

 

[Smoker]

Kick ass setup, looks really fun. Welcome to the forum You have a ferrari?

 

[fechter]

Cool. See my thread on cheap 60v dc-dc converters :wink:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2264

With an improvement in the controller waveform, the noise could be much reduced, but not eliminated since there would still be some cogging.

An induction hub motor could be nearly silent. I rode a motorcycle with an induction motor. The gears made noise, but not the motor.

 

[recumbent]

If your disk brakes are making noise, you can clean them with 99% iso alcohol from any pharmacy store. If this doesn't work remove the brake pads and sand the glaze off them, and replace. This should get rid of the noise completely, if not, use another compound pad from a different company. Good luck, and thanks for the great pictures 8)

 

[ChopperMan]

Hi hejo, welcome to the forum.

That looks a very comfortable ride. Can I ask why you chose the crystallyte motor? I would have thought that Heinzmann, being built in Germany, might have a viable option. Heinzmann have an enviable reputation for reliability and low noise levels.

Thanks,

Ian

 

[xyster]

Doesn't Heinzmann only make brushed hubmotors? That was the reason I never seriously considered their motors. Besides the lower efficiency and greater noise, opening a hub to replace the brushes every so often would be an unnecessary PITA.

 

[recumbent]

Doesn't Besides the lower efficiency and greater noise, opening a hub to replace the brushes every so often would be an unnecessary PITA.

Maybe it's time I greased my gears and cleaned my brushes (area that is) because I'm on my second set of batteries and 8 years of service but never cracked it open. :?
I will open up my Heinzmann motor this winter and take lots of pictures including the 35 Amp controller that came with it.
BTW, the noise level is not bad, but is indeed quite noticable, and has a free-wheel of course. I kinda liked the sound at first but got annoying after awhile. The cables that connects everthing together is huge, and even the batteries are monitered for temp, along with the motor.

 

[ChopperMan]

I have been speaking to the new Heinzmann UK rep over the last few weeks and they are developing a number of new motors, some of which will feature higher power levels, 750Watt+ and disk brakes front and rear.

Although they are building good hill climb ability, 15mph up 15% incline, but they struggle to see why anybody would want to go faster than 20mph. They do offer a "High Speed" motor at 42kph, but it suggested use on the flat only!

I hope to test their 933Watt motor in the new year, 20mph (36V) and 15mph up 15% incline.

 

[recumbent]

they are developing a number of new motors, some of which will feature higher power levels, 750Watt+ and disk brakes front and rear, but they struggle to see why anybody would want to go faster than 20mph. They do offer a "High Speed" motor at 42kph, but it suggested use on the flat only! .

We can boost the voltage and get more speed, the controler is already rated for 35 amps, I'm going this route next summer.
I already get 28kph with good torque at 36volt, 500 watts of power.

 

[hejo]

re. Heinzmann
i would have choosen a Heinzmann motor, but was concerend about the gear-noise. Was told that the small hubs with plastic gears are quiter than the larger steel gear.
I also was somehow fascinated about brushless motors, in the meantime however i believe that brushed dc motors still have some advantages.

I am not so much into power / speed,
my motor-setup is more like an elevator, pulling me uphill at low speed (8-12 km/h) then enjoy cruising at 12-20 km/h.

Yesterday i installed my dc-dc converter powering my Ipod-speakers.
Its even more fun to cruise through fall coloured forest listening Mozart....