Rules of the off topic section.

[neptronix]

This section is for discussions that don't fit the rest of the forum or are simply too controversial to be part of the main forum.

There is a larger degree of free speech in this subforum to stray, but freedom requires responsibility, so we expect our members to refrain from ad hominem, creating threads with the intent to agitate others, political wars, religious wars, just as they would on the rest of the forum.


Threads related to politics are particularly discouraged, but we see no issue with hosting them as long as they are respectful, objective, and have a purpose other than ideological warfare.

Because we have inadvertently created a 'behavior trap' by not moderating this section in the past, we're not going to punish anyone violating forum rules retroactively. Many problematic threads have been moved to the dumpster to pre-empt this change in rules.

Members who repeatedly post about politics with the intent to agitate and polarize will be punished from here on, before the flame war gets going.


Here's where the line is drawn on 'bad politics' and 'good politics':

OK:

A thread talking about how the USA's government is affecting the solar panel industry.
A thread talking about how some state is increasing registration tax on EVs.
A casual mention about how so and so government official has affected your right to ride an eBike.
Some comments on how subsidies affect the industry, which include facts and not speculation.

NOT OK:

A thread talking about how bad/evil of a president Joe Biden / Trump / Xi / Whoever is.
A thread designed to expose racism in some political unit.
A thread talking about how America will fall because of it's lack of family values.
A thread about how global warming is all conservative's fault.

In general, ask yourself.. is your post about politics informative or interesting as it relates to electric vehicle technology.. or is it designed to push an ideology further, or inspire fear or agitation?

If you are unsure, just stay off the topic. If you cross the line, you'll be talked to before moderators take any action.

 

[vanturion]

That's all well and good neptronix, and I get that moderators are literally in the business of moderating behavior, but this problem of ideological divide isn't going to go away no matter how hard people try and shove it under the rug.

From a business point of view, it never makes sense to alienate customers. It's just bad business. But in the last decade, particularly in the last 3+ years, very large and very successful international businesses all over have made a dramatic turn upsetting the customer neutrality gold standard to, very prominently, plant their respective flags on ideological grounds. Worse, prospective customers from a host of businesses, online and physical, are increasingly being denied access or services based on ideological differences. This has obviously become a pervasive trend, and I just don't believe it is something anyone, in just about any capacity, can reverse. Even papering it over or hiding it becomes very awkward to deal with at times.

When you have such a landmark court case where groups of people can see the same evidence and come to completely different conclusions, you have an irreconcilable problem. I have heard it put that this particular court case was effectively acting as a litmus test for the country. The test was, can people of completely different sets of beliefs and value systems live together peacefully? And their conclusion was based on the outcome of people coming to radically different conclusions when looking at exactly the same extensive amounts of evidence was no, they can't.

Now normally, people would be able to pick up and move, digitally and physically, to groups and areas, and now even businesses, with people who shared the value systems and beliefs and limit much if not all of their interaction with people they fundamentally didn't agree with. However, increasingly and looking at the totality of how society and economies have evolved, this peaceful separation at a distance is no longer possible.

This, I believe, is where the majority of the friction is being generated, as we are effectively being forced into a global system of management of human beings that ties us all together whether we like it or not. This is a pretty macro statement, but if we think about how our money works, not just in this country, but in all countries, it makes perfect sense. The reason many people in general are getting increasingly upset and tribal is that we are being forced to redistribute the products of our labor against our will to support people and goals we would otherwise choose not to. Spending future prosperity to support unsustainable consumption in the present (stealing from the youth and unborn), massive deficit spending to support corruption, graft, fiscally irresponsible programs and peoples, these are examples of using force to redistribute our labor for goals we would otherwise choose not to if given the choice.

Because our stored value, our savings, can be stolen from at will through the method of taxation called inflation, the friction will never go away, it will only increase in the future. Simply denying others' perspectives and their opportunity to voice their perspective, however "toxic" (god you can't even say that without automatically thinking "toxic masculinity" which goes to show just how deeply the behavioral programming runs these days), does not make the "problem" go away, nor does it change minds. This fact doesn't matter to the dominant ideology today though, most are not in it to convince or reason. They are in it to win. They are in it to dominate. And that's a reality many cannot understand or accept.

Perhaps I'm going too far as we're just talking about policing forum behavior, but this is OFF TOPIC after all and I think understanding these macro themes are important in understanding reactionary behavior expressed in the micro. When peoples' opinions and perspectives are repressed and marginalized, is it any wonder that their behavior becomes increasingly "toxic". The fact is, we all know which perspectives are being marginalized, censored, and banned from expression in the general public sphere at large, and the result is that there are fewer and fewer "free speech" zones for what has become "toxic" expression, which most of the time is just serving as a pressure release for individuals who live in a society where their perspective has marginalized/ignored/discounted.

So how to handle this? It's obviously not my call, again I'm just a peon who has benefited from the great free-thinking minds who have came here in the early days to tinker, experiment and share and grow their knowledge and skills of this great hobby. However, I'm also of the stock that believes "sticks and stones may break bones, but words may never hurt me" which living in an interconnected society that has become increasingly, and intolerably IMO, feminized, feelings have become more important than rights. As such, this perspective, my perspective, must be sacrificed for what amounts to other peoples ideas of "the greater good".

While I'll likely never wade into political battles in OFF TOPIC at this point in my life, I'll also never compromise my perspective and what I see and who I am fundamentally. I'm sure many feel that way as well. This is the point I'm trying to make from above, it has ceased to be a discussion, and I mean that very broadly, basically everyone is engaged on some level within the ongoing cultural/ideological war and losing is simply admitting subservience, whether by theft of resources, by behavioral compromises, or some combination in some capacity.

Having political, ideological, or religious discussions in any business will never make sense for a business and I can respect that. The problem is, the business model we understood as capitalism has ceased to be the engine that powers the broader economy and as a consequence, our lives. I don't want to get too far on a tangent explaining why we don't live in a capitalistic system anymore as this has gone on long enough, but suffice to say, the money that is injected into the system is (unserviceable) debt not savings or capital and this ultimately originates/flows from politics. This is yet another reason why everything is becoming political, it is because money has become political.

In my ideal world, "toxic" OFF-TOPIC will require nearly zero moderation as it is only viewable by members, has sufficient warnings for all ye who would enter, and short of illegal activities, members should be free to sling the most foul of insults to their hearts content. As long as the toxicity is contained, and a pressure release maintained, the flames can reach all the way to Hades for all I would care. Then of course warnings, suspensions, and escalation to bans for violating the containment rule. It ain't my house though, so it's not my rules.

Coming from someone who grew up in the majority, but now feels like an oppressed minority in their own country, I guess the shoe is on the other foot. With the rules changes, I say good luck. The whole point of free-speech is being afforded the right to offend, take that away, and you can call it whatever you want, but it's not certainly not free.

 

[neptronix]

Very long winded point but i get the gist of it.

I'm not changing my decision. The other workable options to quell years of political bickering and forum rule violations are worse.

This forum is not a business, it's a community, and the goal of any community is to be mutually useful. That requires an environment where people can have mutually beneficial discussions. We haven't had those in 'other toxic discussions' for a long while; moreso mutually agitating discussions.

I know it's 'the norm' on the internet to allow these shit flinging contests but we'd like to buck that trend.
Please take your activism to a venue where it matters and makes a difference. That's not here.

We would be very happy to 'lose as a customer' the segment of the population here who primarily uses an engineering forum designed for the good of humanity ( and the electric grin! ) as an ideological battleground for never ending, non productive arguments.

 

[vanturion]

I understand, and I didn't expect that my post would change any decisions. I wrote it to simply explain my perspective to others who it might help to understand why, from my perspective anyway, it is they may feel the same way if they've found themselves on the outs in OFF TOPIC lately.

I also think that it's an important distinction to understand that you're not bucking the trend here, you are joining the trend to censor free speech. Bucking the trend would be continuing to allow largely unmoderated free speech unlike just about every other part of the internet which has been prolifically moderating dissenting or "offensive" opinions and removing anonymity. This trend being sacrificing individualism for collectivism, and IMO, a false sense of cohesion as censorship doesn't actually brings people together, it's just hiding fundamental differences.

I wrote what I wrote to explain that there are fundamental differences between people which, IMO, will never be breached with reason and discussion because it was never about that. It's about submission, in this case to the rules we want to live by and dominance of the owners and enforcers of said rules (speaking more broadly, not necessarily about ES). I'll submit to the rules here because I don't come here to change minds ideologically, that is as I've come to understand, impossible. I come for the excellent information and information sharing on our great PEV hobbies. I just know that the pressure from the all-pervasive ideological war and cultural divide will only continue to build and without outlets, no matter their inherent non-productivity, the releases will become more severe in the future.

Again, avoiding political discussion and fundamental differences of opinion with members of the community is going to be increasingly more difficult especially as EVs have been politically tied to climate change which will be used as the impetus to make sweeping societal changes in the future. The recent admission speaking on exactly that topic by the CNN technical director caught on tape by a citizen journalist as just one concrete example of what I'm talking about.

 

[neptronix]

I'm glad you don't think you can change my mind.

Not even 4chan allows absolute free speech. Nobody does. This is not a 'trend we are going in' other than reversing a policy that worked pretty well until a dozen people here decided this was a political battleground. We gave a higher degree of free speech than a majority of forums and some people abused it.. so the choice was to either revert that decision or ban long term members.

This is still an engineering forum and not a place to whine about climate change or try to debunk it. It's a place to build your own alternative transport or enlighten other people on how to do the same. Activism is pleading, engineering is doing.

This was a 'doer' forum before.. and i will absolutely die on the hill of making it 100% that if i need to.

 

[nicobie]

In general all this discourse comes down to allocation of resources. The poor want more but the rich and powerful see no reason to give it to them. This will never change until there are more resources available than everybody wants, which will never happen.

Civilization, AKA rules, was/is man's attempt to solve this dilemma. The more people on the planet (in the group), the more rules are necessary.

Look at these rule changes as this groups attempt to implement a bit of civilization to the forum. Besides, nothing ever gets done when everybody is screaming at each other. :wink:

 

[marty]

If you are bothered by subjects in the off topic area? Try this...... Up at the top of the screen. See your name with a arrow next to it. Click on it. See drop down. Click Logout.

Gone! Everything at the bottom of the forum disappears. Problem solved. Now go back to your fantasy land of discussions without disagreements.

 

[Dauntless]

Yeah, Marty, but it's not the solution if people won't do it. Especially those who say 'Hot diggity' to any chance to be offended. And there's been plenty of that.

Neps, you never told me about this Fantasyland, can I come?

 

[Hillhater]

Not even 4chan allows absolute free speech. Nobody does.

...and isnt that a sad reflection on our society where freedom of speech is imbedded in the Constitution !

 

[Dauntless]

Not even 4chan allows absolute free speech. Nobody does.

...and isnt that a sad reflection on our society where freedom of speech is imbedded in the Constitution !

I thought the Australian Constitution didn't have free speech.

Meanwhile, free speech has always had a certain NIMBY quality. Not In My BackYard. Nothing new about people not wanting to hear someone else's free speech.

 

[marty]

Here:
How do you feel about 'other toxic discussions' on this forum?
We had a vote.
20 for
15 against
4 don't care

Seems to me the majority rules. Leave OUR discussion area alone. To let it be known, the most important part of a forum is the members. To me a forum should be like the real world with real discussions of whatever is important at the time. Not one persons fantasy forum of discussions without disagreements.

 

[Voltron]

Nobody is saying there shouldn't be disagreements. All they're trying to do is get members to be less dehumanizing to each other while disagreeing, and to maybe stay away from topics that aren't very subject to scientific review, with actual hypothesis and evidence type discussion, as opposed to just taking emotional opinion positions on social issues.

And that doesn't seem like a bad goal, esp given the wide availability of the alternative everywhere else on the internet, and the moderators should be appreciated for doing a difficult balancing act.

They've also got plenty to do already with keeping out crypto spam and migrating to the new software etc...

 

[John in CR]

The point of this thread is just another version of "Shut up and wear your mask.", which doesn't sit well with me. Everything is political these days, so there's a double standard already being applied, and that doesn't sit well either. Shall I point out specific examples?

 

[neptronix]

Civilization, AKA rules, was/is man's attempt to solve this dilemma. The more people on the planet (in the group), the more rules are necessary.

Look at these rule changes as this groups attempt to implement a bit of civilization to the forum. Besides, nothing ever gets done when everybody is screaming at each other. :wink:

That's exactly it.

OTD was cool until self policing broke down and the subforum mostly full of odd curiosities shifted into a battleground for political activists having non-productive discussions. Self policing broke down and the leadership let this experiment play out for way too long. The section to dump tasteless threads became the home of those who mostly enjoy tasteless threads.

We have new rules because people refused to voluntarily put their swords down. I am not happy about the outcome. I hate even having to have rules.

Especially those who say 'Hot diggity' to any chance to be offended. And there's been plenty of that.

For every person who is easily offended, there's someone who likes to perpetually agitate them and experiences joy when they create misery for that person. The troll drives the oversensitive person out and you end up selecting for a population of aggressive members who, as the demographic shifts in their favor, create an increasingly hostile environment where productive discussion isn't possible. Sound familiar?

...and isnt that a sad reflection on our society where freedom of speech is imbedded in the Constitution !

The first amendment is a rule that applies to government. It puts moderation of those matters in the hands of communities like ours.

Seems to me the majority rules. Leave OUR discussion area alone.

Less than 1% of our forum membership voted in that poll and the inhabitants of OTD chimed in way more than the rest.
Thank god we're not a democracy!
Also, no.

Nobody is saying there shouldn't be disagreements. All they're trying to do is get members to be less dehumanizing to each other while disagreeing, and to maybe stay away from topics that aren't very subject to scientific review, with actual hypothesis and evidence type discussion, as opposed to just taking emotional opinion positions on social issues.

Exactly. We don't mind hosting controversial topics at all but there needs to be a modicum of civility and productivity in those discussions. That simply means closing the open door to trolling and baiting people into heated arguments. IE having the same rules we have everywhere else.

And that doesn't seem like a bad goal, and the moderators should be appreciated for doing a difficult balancing act.
They've also got plenty to do already with keeping out spam and migrating to the new software etc...

Thank you very much. It is extremely difficult and all i want at the end of the day is the same fun community i joined in 2010, which was well moderated, forward thinking for the time, and a fertile environment for some of the smartest and creative people i have ever encountered on the internet to share their experiences and ideas.

ES means a lot to me and i want as much of that magic back as i can get. I also want to buck the trend of letting political arguments polarize or destroy most internet communities. I'm tired of watching that shit happen.

The political war here is over.

 

[neptronix]

The point of this thread is just another version of "Shut up and wear your mask.", which doesn't sit well with me. Everything is political these days, so there's a double standard already being applied, and that doesn't sit well either. Shall I point out specific examples?

Correction - everything is political to people like you; 99.9% of our populace is not of that mindset, and the 0.1% of people who feel that way would be better off putting their emotional energy charge into action with tangible real world results than polluting our forum.

Take that energy elsewhere voluntarily, or the choice will be made for you involuntarily.

 

[John in CR]

The point of this thread is just another version of "Shut up and wear your mask.", which doesn't sit well with me. Everything is political these days, so there's a double standard already being applied, and that doesn't sit well either. Shall I point out specific examples?

Correction - everything is political to people like you; 99.9% of our populace is not of that mindset, and the 0.1% of people who feel that way would be better off putting their emotional energy charge into action with tangible real world results than polluting our forum.

Take that energy elsewhere voluntarily, or the choice will be made for you involuntarily.

Neptronix if you can't see that talking about evil Facebook or vaccines is at least as political as my claim that the Chauvin verdict will result in greater scrutiny by police of ebikers, then you're not being honest or aren't as up to date as you should be. Whether almost anything is considered political these days isn't up to us whether it's logical or not, that's just the way things are now. eg The reasonable discussions we've had about vaccines would get shut down on many platforms, we should be able to have those kinds of conversations about virtually any topic. Just because no one so far has taken offense doesn't mean they couldn't, and it would be a purely political standpoint, and just like any contrary view all they'd need to do is back their argument with logic and common sense.

While on the subject of vaccines (just as an example) there's even more push now for vaccine passports along with mandatory vaccines demanded by some institutions such as universities. This is absolutely a political topic, but shouldn't we be able to discuss how it has no foundation in logic or common sense?

Along more political lines, but more important in many ways, shouldn't we be able to discuss the results of Arizona's audit of Maricopa county once those results are in? If nothing is found I'll gladly admit that's a strong strike against my attitude related to election results, and if they go the way I believe, then shouldn't I be allowed an "I told you so." despite having no effect on the end result? What about the breaking news today that the FBI raided Rudy Giuliani's home and office, shouldn't we be able to discuss that? What about the fact that many areas are still requiring preschoolers to wear masks when the virus poses virtually no risk to them, but wearing masking is detrimental to them both physically and from a brain development standpoint? These types of things are far more important discussion topics given the current state of affairs than what winding of hubmotor someone needs, which doesn't make a hill of beans difference unless they're already locked into a battery voltage, and even then it's pretty inconsequential.

 

[neptronix]

I feel like you don't understand what i'm getting at still, and i've done my best to explain the case for months. It's making me very frustrated.

We can continue to have conversations on controversial topics if we can omit the ideological war aspect, ad hominem, etc. That aspect of our forum has not changed.

This thread is not about external issues on politics like vaccine passports, masks, or the chauvin trial, it's about people's behavior on the forum. This thread is about creating a consistent expectation of behavior on the forum. Stop trying to derail it.

I either need a change of heart/behavior from members who are passionate about political issues, or i need to ban them them in order for others to have the ability to speak on these matters without being shouted down, strawmanned, etc.
Dauntless was removed from the forum yesterday because he repeatedly ignored my requests to change his behavior.


If you cannot understand these rules, then i strongly suggest you stop posting about politics on this forum altogether.

 

[goatman]

a priest, rabbi and lawyer walk into a bar

 

[nicobie]

I just came across this old thread again, and you know what? I don't miss Dauntless or John in CR one single bit.

 

[tomjasz]

censor free speech.

I am so tired of this free-speech bullspizzle. We all can buy a URL, set up a forum, and have all the freedom of speech we want. This is someone else's house. Subject to their rules. No Shirt No Shoes No Service.

EDIT! OOPS necro tread, sorry...

 

[tomjasz]

I just came across this old thread again, and you know what? I don't miss Dauntless or John in CR one single bit.

Someone will surely step up and take their place. Like the guy that spent hours sorting who I am and posted pictures from my wife's Facebook in ES messages. CREEPY

 

[nicobie]

Tell a mod if this happens again. I enjoy banning assh****

 

[neptronix]

Someone will surely step up and take their place. Like the guy that spent hours sorting who I am and posted pictures from my wife's Facebook in ES messages. CREEPY

This is 1000000000000000000% against our rules.
If anything like that were to happen again, PM me/nicobile as well as flag the post.

We should be able to takedown this kind of thing within 24h and we are dead set against this kind of behavior these days.

 

[nicobie]

We should be able to takedown this kind of thing within 24h and we are dead set against this kind of behavior these days.

Between Amberwolf and the rest of us I don't think it would last more than a couple of hours.

 

[tomjasz]

The creepy one used a PM.