Shengyi SX1 motor stops after 5 seconds when riding but the motor runs ok when I hold the wheel off the ground

[Enkidu]

Recently I bought a "kit" from Grin and added them to my Bike Friday New World Tourist. Rode it a few times and loved it. Last week I went to go for a ride and the motor stopped after about 5 seconds. Restarted the the Baserunner and tried riding again and the motor cut off again. So I restarted the Baserunner again and held the front wheel off the ground and the motor ran like normal and did not stop Then I set the bike on the ground and tried riding and it stopped again after 5 seconds.

This is very weird. Why would the motor stop when I am on the bike but run freely when I hold the wheel off the ground? I have not made any SW changes to the Baserunner or the V3 Cycle Analyst.

Here is what I installed on the bike;
Shengyi DGWX1 SX1 Helical Geared Hub Motor, Fast Wind
V4 Baserunner Z9
V3.1 Cycle Analyst
B3620Li-DT battery
PAS 24P

Any thoughts as to what is going wrong with it? I can upload the Baserunner and CA files if need be.

Thank You
Zack S

 

[amberwolf]

Usually this kind of thing indicates the system is either overloaded (or thinks it is, faulty current sensor readings, etc), or voltage is dropping under load (battery problem, or connection from battery to controller) to the point the controller shuts down from it's LVC.

Note that even if you havent' made changes, settings (on any device) can become corrupted and cause undesired and even wierd behavior. In some cases it is necessary to reset the settings to factory and then re-enter any customized settings from backups. (I really hate it when this happens...and it happens a fair amount of the time).

Last week I went to go for a ride and the motor stopped after about 5 seconds. Restarted the the Baserunner and tried riding again and the motor cut off again. So I restarted the Baserunner again and held the front wheel off the ground and the motor ran like normal and did not stop Then I set the bike on the ground and tried riding and it stopped again after 5 seconds.

This is very weird. Why would the motor stop when I am on the bike but run freely when I hold the wheel off the ground? I have not made any SW changes to the Baserunner or the V3 Cycle Analyst.

Here is what I installed on the bike;
Shengyi DGWX1 SX1 Helical Geared Hub Motor, Fast Wind
V4 Baserunner Z9
V3.1 Cycle Analyst
B3620Li-DT battery
PAS 24P

 

[Enkidu]

Zack,
A few things come to mind:

1. Does your V4 Baserunner/Cycle Analyst have any fault code capability?

2. When you start out to begin your bike ride did you begin with pedal assist aka foot pressure rotating the pedals or using the throttle?

3. Same question with lifting the wheel. When you lifted the wheel, did you enlist your throttle or turn the pedals to make the motor run where the motor ran normally?

1 I am not sure but will find out.

2 Today I put the bike on a repair stand and cranked the pedals by hand. The PAS ran fine. Then I put the bike on the ground and after riding it for 5 seconds the motor stopped.

 

[E-HP]

What is the low voltage cutoff set to in the baserunner setup?

 

[Enkidu]

What is the low voltage cutoff set to in the baserunner setup?

Baserunner
Low voltage cutoff (start) is 19.5v.
Low voltage cutoff (end) is 19.0v.

Cycle Analyst
Low voltage cutoff is 29V.

The above were the installed factory settings and the manuals say these are the best settings.

The battery is 36 V Li-ion, series cell count 10 S, 19.3 AH.

 

[E-HP]

What is the low voltage cutoff set to in the baserunner setup?

Baserunner
Low voltage cutoff (start) is 19.5v.
Low voltage cutoff (end) is 19.0v.

Cycle Analyst
Low voltage cutoff is 29V.

The above were the installed factory settings and the manuals say these are the best settings.

The battery is 36 V Li-ion, series cell count 10 S, 19.3 AH.

Is the battery fully charged when it happens, and does the CA screen shut off when it happens or stays on?

 

[Enkidu]

What is the low voltage cutoff set to in the baserunner setup?

Baserunner
Low voltage cutoff (start) is 19.5v.
Low voltage cutoff (end) is 19.0v.

Cycle Analyst
Low voltage cutoff is 29V.

The above were the installed factory settings and the manuals say these are the best settings.

The battery is 36 V Li-ion, series cell count 10 S, 19.3 AH.

Is the battery fully charged when it happens, and does the CA screen shut off when it happens or stays on?

The battery is fully charged. I did it a few hours ago using a Grin Satiator. The CA screen does not shut off when the motor dies.

I used the Phaserunner software to see if the Baserunner showed any faults.
The DEV tab shows these but of course I have no idea what they mean:
ADDR 299 Faults 2 value 0.
ADDR 269 Last Fault Value 2048
The Baserunner shows no faults in the 4 segment LED display when the motor stops.

I was going to do a reset of the Baserunner but I cannot find a way to do that in the manual.

 

[Enkidu]

You aren't keeping up bro which of course is your prerogative.
I asked you about the throttle. No response.

Will try one more time.

The bike runs when you apply hand force on the stand.

Next step:
You need to elevate the rear wheel and put more force into the pedal to replicate the failure with you trying to ride the bike with it on the ground.


I suspect a torque sensor failure which can either mean the torque sensor hardware has failed or your controller has lost its calibration.

I am not sure how I could do this; You have established the torque sensor is providing power with 'low force' to the pedal. You need to increase force on the pedals either by hand or by foot with the rear wheel elevated to impart greater force to the pedal to get the bike to shut down...try to determine this threshold.

I put it on a work stand and cranked the pedals. I spun it as fast as possible and the motor does not stop running. When I have the bike on the street and it fails I am not going very fast as it stops running after about five seconds so how fast could I be going at that point. It does not seem as if the PAS is failing

if I am just using the throttle on the street the motor also stops after five seconds.

 

[Enkidu]

Stay with me bro, this is not complicated.
When you apply hand pressure to spin the pedals by hand with your rear wheel elevated on the stand, you are only applying maybe 5 lbs of force to a single pedal. You are not creating enough strain within the torque sensor to get it to fail.

Try this:
Put the bike on the ground with controller set to mid level power.
Get on the bike to ride it only apply 'very light pressure' to the pedals with your feet and let 'the motor and not your feet move the bike forward'.

One more test with your throttle. Take your feet off the pedals and just try the throttle and tell me if the bike shuts down?

I disconnected the PAS cable, ran it using throttle only and it still shuts off after five seconds. WTF... Will try reloading the SW for the CA and Baserunner.

 

[amberwolf]

The bike runs when you apply hand force on the stand.

Next step:
You need to elevate the rear wheel and put more force into the pedal to replicate the failure with you trying to ride the bike with it on the ground.

You have established the torque sensor is providing power with 'low force' to the pedal. You need to increase force on the pedals either by hand or by foot with the rear wheel elevated to recreate the motor shutting off.

I don't think this system has a torque sensor, just a "cadence" (pulse) sensor, with 24 poles:

Here is what I installed on the bike;
Shengyi DGWX1 SX1 Helical Geared Hub Motor, Fast Wind
V4 Baserunner Z9
V3.1 Cycle Analyst
B3620Li-DT battery
PAS 24P

If so it doens't matter what force is on the pedals or chain, it only matters whether they are turning or not, and at what speed (assuming the CA is setup to control amount of assist vs sensor speed, and that it is indeed wired to the CA's PAS input).

Even if it is a torque sensor, since the results are the same using the throttle, any sensor problems are essentially irrelevant to the shutoff problem.

Baserunner
Low voltage cutoff (start) is 19.5v.
Low voltage cutoff (end) is 19.0v.

Cycle Analyst
Low voltage cutoff is 29V.

The above were the installed factory settings and the manuals say these are the best settings.

The battery is 36 V Li-ion, series cell count 10 S, 19.3 AH.

This info would normally eliminate the battery as the issue. But if the battery voltage sags far enough under load because of a battery problem, below one of the LVCs, it would cause the system to stop responding.

What are the voltage readings on the CA screen while riding, for the whole time the system is running, including both before and after the motor shuts off?



Next, to completely eliminate the CA settings as a cause, set throttle mode to BYPASS. This sends the actual throttle signal directly to the controller, exactly as it is from the throttle with no modification. It doesn't change any other CA settings or behavior, so it's easy to undo by setting it back to the same throttle mode you originally used when done with this testing step.

If the system now operates correctly on throttle, it means the CA is what is stopping the system, by no longer providing a throttle out after that 5s time period under load. You can verify this by setting throttle mode back to your present mode, and watching the diagnostic screen of the CA which shows throttle in and throttle out voltage right on top. When it shuts off, the throttle out voltage will drop below whatever the BR's minimum input threshold is, while the throttle in voltage will stay wherever you have the actual throttle set.

You can also see a bunch of letters on the lower left. Any that are capitalized are limits that are engaged, lowercase ones are limits that haven't been exceeded. When a limit is exceeded, the CA then modifies the throttle output based on the settings you've chosen and that specific limit's behavior. Knowing which limit it is means you can go to the page(s) for that limit and alter the settings until the system behaves as desired.


If the system does not operate correctly even on BYPASS mode, it means the problem is not in the CA. It is most likely then in the BR settings, if the battery voltage is not dropping under load. (if it is dropping significantly, then the battery likely has a problem that needs to be fixed, regardless of whatever other issues the system has causing the shutdown).

 

[amberwolf]

The DEV tab shows these but of course I have no idea what they mean:
ADDR 299 Faults 2 value 0.
ADDR 269 Last Fault Value 2048
The Baserunner shows no faults in the 4 segment LED display when the motor stops.

These might not have anything to do with the problem. I did a tiny amount of poking around and found this info on them
https://support.accelerated-systems.com/KB/?p=243
If the value was 2048, then the below quoted from the ASI page says
"Example: You see 2048 as the error
2048 converted to binary is 100000000000 . or Bit 11 (counting from right to left with 0 being the first digit)
According to the Object Dictionary, bit 11 is the “Speed regulator mode”"
So the problem may have something to do with a speed limit set in the BR. If this is wheel or motor speed, I would not expect this to be the case, because presumably the BR is reading the speed from the motor hall sensors. If it is instead being fed from a wheel sensor that is on the *non-motor* wheel, then the fault isn't occuring on the "test stand" because that wheel isn't being spun by the motor at the speed that triggers the problem. If it's some other speed, I don't know what it would be. In that event, I'd recommend asking Grin Tech what this error specifically means, relevant to your system setup, if the problem is not found elsewhere in the system.

Faults2 (Address 299)

Bits: 15 14 13 12 11 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0

1=active 0=not active

bit 0: Parameter CRC (flash code 3,1)

Reload parameter file using highest level access (run back through EOL test station).

bit 1: Current Scaling(flash code 3,2)

If the rated motor current is outside the measurable range. Check rated motor current, controller maximum current, phase A gain, phase C gain. This can occur if a customer parameter file does not agree with the calibrated gains.

bit 2: Voltage Scaling(flash code 3,3)

This faults when the system voltage setting is outside the measurable range. The voltage gain parameter is likely incorrectly set or the rated system voltage is incorrectly set.

bit 3: Headlight Undervoltage(flash code 3,4)

Only for ST18/ST19 products.

bit 4: Torque sensor(flash code 3,5)

Reserved for future use.

bit 5: CAN bus(flash code 3,6)

A fault occurred with CAN communication.

bit 6: Hall Stall(flash code 3,7)

Motor hall transitions are slower then timeout setting. Motor has likely become stuck.

bit 7: Bootloader – Not used(flash code 3,8)

Reserved for future use.

bit 8: Parameter2CRC(flash code 4,1)

Same as Bit 0 but it is for the second set of parameters. Reload parameter file using highest level access (run through EOL test station).

bit 9: Hall vs Sensorless position(flash code 4,2)

Compares hall and sensorless positions. If they are off by more then 30 degree’s this will trigger. Check Hall offset angle parameter. This is unlikely to occur in manufacturing.

bit 10: (flash code 4,3)

bit 11: (flash code 4,4)

bit 12flash code 4,5)

bit 13: (flash code 4,6)

bit 14: (flash code 4,7)

bit 15: (flash code 4,8)

 

[amberwolf]

Quite sure its been established the battery did not hit LCV.

The battery doesn't have to reach it's own LVC and shutdown to cause a problem.

All that has to happen is for voltage to drop enough for either BR or CA to react to it by shutting off throttle output (CA) or shutting down motor operation (BR). Not knowing what it's voltage is means we (as troubleshooters) can't eliminate this possibility.

This type of problem doesn't even have to be caused directly by the battery, but can be caused by a poor connection between battery and system, with enough resistance that it causes voltage drop under load--more load, more voltage drop across the connection. In that event a voltmeter on the battery itself would actually show correct voltage, but the system monitor at the load (CA if it's using BR's power to run itself, for instance, or BR logs if it has any) would show the voltage dropping.

Whether Enkidu chooses to test it or not is up to them, but it is a very easy test as long as the riding area allows looking down at the CA screen frequently, and requires no system changes, since the CA shows the battery voltage on it's main screen by default.

 

[amberwolf]

FWIW, I do recommend, to all posters helping anyone, to use a method in presenting troubleshooting options that only presents the options, and doesn't "demand" anything of them.

Some people find it confrontational otherwise, and arguments then ensue, helping no one.

 

[Enkidu]

Got this reply from Grin.

Apologies for the difficulties, let's try and get to the bottom of this.

I see you've set the CA throttle mode to 'bypass' - can you confirm if the cutout problem still persists in this mode?

Assuming it does, I'm guessing we have a controller issue. I see in your endless-sphere post you mention "The Baserunner shows no faults in the 4 segment LED display when the motor stops", I think you're referring to the LED on the battery, but the LED on the controller will be on the underside of the battery (it is difficult to see with the Baserunner installed in the baseplate - hooking it up to the software suite will be easier). Once it's stopped working, keep the system powered up and either look for a flash code, or connect to the Phaserunner suite and read any error codes directly through there. You will see the errors on the basic set up tab:
Let me know what you find.
____________________
Sorry I have not replied back. Been very busy.

I changed the Input Throttle Mode to Passthrough, rebooted the CA and the motor still cuts out. Then tried Speed and it does the same thing.
What should the Throttle Mode be set at for most users?

Ran the Phaserunner SW and I get this error; Faults [0]; instantaneous phase over current.

I looked at the Phaserunner https://ebikes.ca/documents/Phaserunner_Manual_Rev2.0.pdf (page 12) manual and found this;
"If the autostart ramp is too aggressive or the Autostart Max RPM is too low, then on hitting the throttle you will feel the motor repeatedly trying to start again and again. You may also generate faults such as instantaneous phase over-current error. If you are getting phase over-current faults during the sensorless start, then you will usually need to increase the current regulator bandwidth and/or the PLL bandwidth parameters. 4.5 Throttle and Regen Voltage Maps."
___________________

I tried changing the Bandwidth to 3000 then 4000 then 5000 and the motor still cuts off after 10 seconds. Also now when I hold the bike up the front wheel makes a rubbing sound off and on.

I should have just bought an Lectric.

Am I just out of luck and my bike is now useless? Please advise. What a freaking nightmare this has turned into. WHY WOULD IT START DOING THIS FOR NO REASON??? Did the Phasrunner fail?

So how do I fix this or am I just screwed? Would be nice to have a working bike. Yeah I am upset.
I spent $2000 on this and the bike is unrideable.

Thoughts?

 

[AnthonyC]

> Faults [0]; instantaneous phase over current.
> Also now when I hold the bike up the front wheel makes a rubbing sound off and on.

I'd take a close look for motor cable damage as a short could cause excessive phase current. Any cable movement could make a short intermittent so I'd check axle nuts and TA, cable ties, cable routing for rubbing and as always that the plug is fully seated. See what flexes when someone sits on the bike or gets off. You'll also get a good idea where that sound is coming from, it really shouldn't be the motor.

It's a bummer when it's your only ride but keep going, it's just a bunch of parts and it's unusual for two to fail at once.

 

[E-HP]

Am I just out of luck and my bike is now useless? Please advise. What a freaking nightmare this has turned into. WHY WOULD IT START DOING THIS FOR NO REASON??? Did the Phasrunner fail?

So how do I fix this or am I just screwed? Would be nice to have a working bike. Yeah I am upset.
I spent $2000 on this and the bike is unrideable.

Thoughts?

Maybe take a break for a day or two. Mistakes can happen when you're frustrated, and you might fry something over a simple issue accidentally.