upp battery bared

[Phasedout]

Hi folks,
. I bought this cheap battery last year and have been concerned about its construction.
It is not as bad as id imagined. Welds are good, solder well done, series connection to every cell, neat wiring, nice. It is poorly protected, but that is easy to remedy.
Also the output connections are lame, but can be beefed up easily. I used this last year for a couple thousand miles, and it still puts out full capacity, and cells remain balanced.
I have no idea if it uses pure nickel, but I wouldn't be surprised. I'm going to add nickel series strips, and improve the current sharing on the end cells, as well as better protection from bumps and bruises.
Not bad for $360 Canadian (last year)

 

[amberwolf]

We appreciate the internal images.

What are the cells themselves like, if you have any info on them?

Cant' see the cell labelling in your images to check which model/brand they are (assuming the markings are correct).

Testing would be required to see if they all match their specs even if they are marked accurately...which I don't recommend you do because it would require pack disassembly to test the actual cells, though you could test the paralleled groups together without disassembly if you have the inclination and equipment.

I suspect that more problems with UPP (and other cheap batteries) are from cell quality and matching (or lack thereof for either) and whether the BMS is a balancing type (for unmatched cells) than construction.

Impossible to know in cases of fire, and most who have problem packs that don't burn dont' have ability to (or don't want to) do the cell testing to find out.

Can you tell if the BMS is a balancing type or not? (there are two types, and only the passive ones are easy to tell, as they will have a number of sets of tiny transistors and resistors equal to the number of series cell groups, usually near the cell-sense-wires connector...the active type has other electronics that are not as obvious, and often look like nonbalancing BMSes).

 

[999zip999]

Can you write down the voltage s for each parallel group 1-14 like this for ez reading.

1. 3.90v
2. 4.10v
3. 4.18v

14. 0.00v
Charger voltage. 0.00v
Battery voltage. 0.00v
This will tell the state of charge and some part of health and condition.

 

[Eastwood]

Interesting to see the inside of a UPP battery. UPP batteries, surely catch more criticism than any other packs talked about on ES. I’ve been using batteries for a few years and mine still fully charges as well. I’ve also pushed it to the max limit of discharge and charging current. I’ve always been curious of the packs construction, glad you posted this

So it looks like the discharge is just soldered to the very end cell, not good. It’ll be interesting to see what type of improvement you get from beefing up the connections. Maybe it’ll be less voltage sag, maybe…

 

[amberwolf]

UPP batteries, surely catch more criticism than any other packs talked about on ES.

AFAIK, it's because more of them have been directly linked to fires than other brands (most fires it's not known what specific pack builder created them, and you can't really tell much afterward). There have been other issues with UPP packs posted than just fires, but fire is the worst case failure you can have.

 

[E-HP]

AFAIK, it's because more of them have been directly linked to fires than other brands (most fires it's not known what specific pack builder created them, and you can't really tell much afterward). There have been other issues with UPP packs posted than just fires, but fire is the worst case failure you can have.

Some of that my be by virtue of the fact that there are not many brand names out there for battery packs; and out of the few brand names out there, I'm guessing UPP cranks out 10 times as many packs as the others; they're like the MXUS of the battery pack world. There aren't really statistics to point to for the random no name blue shrink wrapped pack, from random ebay/Aliexpress seller, with inflated specs. When those burn up, people just feel dumb for buying them in the first place and don't post much about them (although from some recent posts, I think some folks could destroy a high quality pack just through poor practices). Seems like the non-balancing BMS could be problematic, so if the rest of the construction is good, then correcting that would eliminate that shortcoming.

On the pack itself, what's the purpose of that extra nickel strip, in the middle, upper third of the pack in the third pic. I can't figure out why it's there.

 

[amberwolf]

Some of that my be by virtue of the fact that there are not many brand names out there for battery packs; and out of the few brand names out there, I'm guessing UPP cranks out 10 times as many packs as the others; they're like the MXUS of the battery pack world. There aren't really statistics to point to for the random no name blue shrink wrapped pack, from random ebay/Aliexpress seller, with inflated specs. When those burn up, people just feel dumb for buying them in the first place and don't post much about them

Those are all good points.

Seems like the non-balancing BMS could be problematic, so if the rest of the construction is good, then correcting that would eliminate that shortcoming.

No balancing would be needed for a pack of quality well-matched cells being used well-within their specification limits, (at least not until they age enough to no longer be matched--which could be a long long time if the cells are good enough).

But unfortunatley the nonbalancing BMSs appear to be used most often on what are probably the cheapest crappiest packs with the worst possible cell choices (which most need the balancers), simply because it's a little more expensive ot put the balancers on there.

On the pack itself, what's the purpose of that extra nickel strip, in the middle, upper third of the pack in the third pic. I can't figure out why it's there.

Looks like those strips are narrower than the other ones, so maybe they used extra to get at least the same resistance? Can't imagine why they'd have the narrower strips at that spot, though, and not elsewhere, unless they had to remove the original wider ones to replace a cell....

 

[E-HP]

Looks like those strips are narrower than the other ones, so maybe they used extra to get at least the same resistance? Can't imagine why they'd have the narrower strips at that spot, though, and not elsewhere, unless they had to remove the original wider ones to replace a cell....

Well I didn't notice it until you mentioned it, but it's the same thing on the other side, and for that one cell, so maybe it was replaced. I know that cell matching takes time and probably cuts into profits, so a place where corners are cut. But if they do some sort of after-build testing of the pack to identify and replace obviously defective cells, then that would be better than nothing. Probably reading more into it than what the case may be, but it does look like something was done with that one cell.

 

[boytitan]

Interesting to see the inside of a UPP battery. UPP batteries, surely catch more criticism than any other packs talked about on ES. I’ve been using batteries for a few years and mine still fully charges as well. I’ve also pushed it to the max limit of discharge and charging current. I’ve always been curious of the packs construction, glad you posted this

So it looks like the discharge is just soldered to the very end cell, not good. It’ll be interesting to see what type of improvement you get from beefing up the connections. Maybe it’ll be less voltage sag, maybe…

Hard not to catch critism after louis rossman video. While I feel he was wrong for the harsh attack I will also never chance myself with them due to it.

 

[amberwolf]

I know that cell matching takes time and probably cuts into profits, so a place where corners are cut. But if they do some sort of after-build testing of the pack to identify and replace obviously defective cells, then that would be better than nothing. Probably reading more into it than what the case may be, but it does look like something was done with that one cell.

They can't electrically test the actual cells once they're assembled into a pack without disconnecting them (breaking the welds or cutting the strips). I've had to do that to find which cell in a group was defective...so I would guess something more obvious was wrong with the cell--perhaps it heated up enough in a whole-pack test to show up on a heat-imaging test, or it had obvious wrapper damage, or something else. Maybe even just that the spot welds were broken to it, or it's positive cap was obviously damaged, or it vented, or even was installed upside down (which would've killed it and reversed it before draining the other cells in parallel with it to a significant degree, if not completely).

Whatever the case, it does say something "good" about them if they do even the minimal QC to find a pack with a busted wrapper (or whatever) and then replace it. I'm sure that's not the case for quite a few pack builders out there, some of which have made it obvious in some of the troubleshooting threads around here that the packs in those threads were never tested or even looked at with any care while they were being assembled.


Once spotwelded together, the only testing they could do of the cells individually would be via heat imaging during charging and/or discharging. Not really cost effective in doing that kind of testing if they have to then waste labor taking the pack apart again to fix any problems they find.

If they aren't testing and matching cells before building, they might as well not worry about it at all.

 

[Phasedout]

We appreciate the internal images.

What are the cells themselves like, if you have any info on them?

Cant' see the cell labelling in your images to check which model/brand they are (assuming the markings are correct).

Testing would be required to see if they all match their specs even if they are marked accurately...which I don't recommend you do because it would require pack disassembly to test the actual cells, though you could test the paralleled groups together without disassembly if you have the inclination and equipment.

I suspect that more problems with UPP (and other cheap batteries) are from cell quality and matching (or lack thereof for either) and whether the BMS is a balancing type (for unmatched cells) than construction.

Impossible to know in cases of fire, and most who have problem packs that don't burn dont' have ability to (or don't want to) do the cell testing to find out.

Can you tell if the BMS is a balancing type or not? (there are two types, and only the passive ones are easy to tell, as they will have a number of sets of tiny transistors and resistors equal to the number of series cell groups, usually near the cell-sense-wires connector...the active type has other electronics that are not as obvious, and often look like nonbalancing BMSes).

No AW, I won't be disassembling this pack. Lol. I have a 14s20p pack being assembled.

I did however test each cell group, with a 6 amp load, and though I've misplaced the numbers, they were, for all intents, exactly alike, and slightly over spec, capacity wise. After charging, and sitting a few days, there are 13 cells @ 4.2v, and 1 @ 4.19v.
That is the extent of testing this pack will see. After 280 cells, 28 10p cell groups, and 28 8p groups, I have put in all the testing time I can endure!
The cells are no doubt crap, the terminations crap, the physical protection crap, the bms, whatever it is, is being replaced with an em3ev bms, etc.
I expect a relatively short life from these cells, don't care.
0

 

[999zip999]

Phasedout were all parallel groups of the same voltage ?
People don't understand the cost of a decent battery build or they just want the cheapest battery possible. I heard you upp has options such as upgrade to the cells upgrade the BMS. But still have weak series connections

 

[2old]

I a UPP pack and it functioned well for four years before I sold it with a motor. However, recently I've received good service from two batteries supplied by bicyclemotorworks, who profess to construct them in the US.

 

[999zip999]

I thought bicycle motor works was the way to go they got a new shipment of Samsung 40t. 3years ago. So I order a custom 20s6p from them or Matt Bruza. The first time I got the battery it wouldn't fully charge only 80.4v I tried with two different chargers both set to 84 volts. I was told to send it back he replaced a parallel set of cells. And put a new Bluetooth BMS. It fully charged the 84 volts but at 6p 21700 it should have 24ah only got 19ah . He wouldn't talk to me so after a year I talked to his wife. But she couldn't do anything and now only 12.5ah. That was a 1,200usd .
So I do feel cheated. And would never use him again or recommend him. Matt Bruza of bicycle motor works that is.

 

[Phasedout]

Phasedout were all parallel groups of the same voltage ?
People don't understand the cost of a decent battery build or they just want the cheapest battery possible. I heard you upp has options such as upgrade to the cells upgrade the BMS. But still have weak series connections

Yup, they are identical. I've just added 0.15 nickel to the series connections on one side, took a half hour. Love my Kweld!
I'll finish after supper, solder some tabs on a piece of 10g, and call it a day. The bms plug is even the same size, that never happens for me. Lol

 

[999zip999]

Sometimes there is more then one out on the positive BMS to your controller meaning you can take two red positives from the BMS to the controller as I guess the negative is on the battery and you can use that with more than one wire to the controller. If needed.

 

[Phasedout]

???

 

[tomjasz]

louis rossman video.

There's more to that story. Rossman was running an aftermarket controller. And linked 2 72V battery packs. Louis ain't all he's cracked up to be.

UPP can build a good battery if we write a specification for them to follow. California eBike sold UPP batteries but the failure rate was unacceptable. Doug lost lots of dollars covering the warranties they refused to honor. Expect generic cells and cheap nickel-coated steel connections.

 

[tomjasz]

I a UPP pack and it functioned well for four years before I sold it with a motor. However, recently I've received good service from two batteries supplied by bicyclemotorworks, who profess to construct them in the US.

Yeah, some people actually win in Lost Wages NV too!

 

[tomjasz]

I thought bicycle motor works was the way to go they got a new shipment of Samsung 40t. 3years ago. So I order a custom 20s6p from them or Matt Bruza. The first time I got the battery it wouldn't fully charge only 80.4v I tried with two different chargers both set to 84 volts. I was told to send it back he replaced a parallel set of cells. And put a new Bluetooth BMS. It fully charged the 84 volts but at 6p 21700 it should have 24ah only got 19ah . He wouldn't talk to me so after a year I talked to his wife. But she couldn't do anything and now only 12.5ah. That was a 1,200usd .
So I do feel cheated. And would never use him again or recommend him. Matt Bruza of bicycle motor works that is.

The same fellow bought a replacement BBSxx controller. He proceeded to change all the connectors before installing them and then claimed a warranty when there was a problem. The controller shipped as a tested working controller. Of course, PP honored it, but who takes back controllers that have been modified under warranty coverage? PP dinged the seller for the entire order.

For a good giggle see his cycle proton youtube video.

watch

 

[Mikegy]

Hard not to catch critism after louis rossman video. While I feel he was wrong for the harsh attack I will also never chance myself with them due to it.

I'm not an Apple fan but I can't take him seriously after he was caught lying about an Apple repair situation and his excuse when caught was well it could have happened. When he refused to let a mutually determined independent agent examine the UPP battery that burned when UPP realized he wouldn't let them examine the battery (I understood not turning battery over to UPP) I lost the last vestige of the respect I once held before the Apple incident. It sounded suspiciously like he was paralleling batteries on charge but if so whether voltages were close or not I obviously couldn't say. Between second party labeled to other manufacturers and own label batteries UPP absolutely buries everyone else in ourput.

 

[2old]

Yeah, some people actually win in Lost Wages NV too!

If you have something negative to report about this company, why don't you cite it instead of making an inane statement? I stated information about a company that has provided excellent service to me which seems to be one of the purposes of this site. As an aside, 999zip999, sorry that you had bad service from them, especially since our "conversations" show you're a really fine person.

 

[tomjasz]

CYC PHOTON

If you have something negative to report about this company, why don't you cite it instead of making an inane statement? I stated information about a company that has provided excellent service to me which seems to be one of the purposes of this site. As an aside, 999zip999, sorry that you had bad service from them, especially since our "conversations" show you're a really fine person.

A stupid statement eh? History speaks for itself. I'd say supporters are "inane".

You typically respond to criticism of a company you bought what? One? 2? batteries from. I'm sharing the results of scores of sales and warranty replacement issues.

I've written the same before. I HAVE another UPP battery built to my specifications. But that's not what the budget and off-the-shelf buyers end up with.

 

[999zip999]

As I understand UPP has a pack with a BMS that has lvc hvc but no balancing. I know they will make a customize pack with brand name cells. But they are limited by there series connections for higher amps.

 

[999zip999]

2old I just think bicycle motor works got a bad shipment of Samsung 40t cells.. And many even big suppliers have gotten bad BMS or batteries like pedego and the pedigo fires.