What makes good brakes? Pistons, rotor or feedback?

[dakh]

Pad glazing is a thing of the past. If you don't mix different pad compounds on the same rotor or contaminate pads it won't happen.

Get a set of latest Zee's (or M820's if you're willing to spend the money), ice-tech rotors and test it out.

 

[macribs]

The Zee's seems to get good reviews, and also cost less. Might be worth testing.
I wont be able to stop by the shops before saturday so I got a few days to check prices to see if there are any sales.

Are there any particular pads that are generally more effective then others? From race cars I remember there was all kinds of pads to choose from. Is it the same for DH brakes? Tips from experiences will be much obliged.

 

[Chalo]

Given that any brake that can reach its limit (tip-up for a front brake, skidding for a rear) is as powerful as possible, other factors become more important criteria once that level of performance is reached.

I find that what is "best" varied not only by bike and by application, but also by front vs rear wheel. In the rear, I want a brake that comes on more gradually and requires a strong pull to initiate a skid. Rim brakes and drums tend to be better in that regard than discs, even when they are stronger than the discs in question.

Discs tend to be better at providing all of however much power they offer with less force at the lever. That's good for people with weak hands.

 

[Chalo]

Are there any particular pads that are generally more effective then others? From race cars I remember there was all kinds of pads to choose from. Is it the same for DH brakes? Tips from experiences will be much obliged.

Sintered metal pads will outperform semi-metallic or organic pads every time. Nothing I have ever tried works better than EBC Gold metallic pads. They have super high friction coefficient, unbelievable wear life, and reasonably good sensitivity. On the down side, they make a fairly conspicuous scraping sound when applied.

 

[macribs]

Thx Chalo, much obliged.

As long as they don't harm the rotor the scraping sound will be ok.

 

[Kyle201]

I also highly recommend the zees for performance to price ratio, just fantastic brakes, for only $150 per wheel at CRC. As chalo said sintered is generally the best power and least fading, best in wet conditions, and in fact like to be heated up some to achieve full power.

An interesting alternative to the pricey shimano sintered pads is from uber-bike. check it out https://www.uberbikecomponents.com/...c-Brake-Pads-Shimano-Saint-M810-M820-Zee-M640. Re-usable heat fins!! And they have their own "pro matrix" compound which they claim has even higher braking power than sintered... bought a bunch to try but still waiting for my sintered pads to wear out first. I've been using the uber-bike sintered pads and they are excellent, just as good if not better than the shimano sintered.

 

[macribs]

Thx Kyle. Look at that. Even more surface area to remove heat. And reusable. Smart. Nice price as well.

 

[Thud]

if price is any factor, here is something to consider,I used this on my race bike:
http://www.partsforscooters.com/Hydraulic_brake_front?sc=31&category=132375

I use this with a 200mm bicycle rotor & its flawless. Its heavyer than bike stuff but you'll never fad due to heat build up.
Pads are 2-1/2 times the surface area.....mine has years of use...barely showing any wear.

 

[Chalo]

For 400 pounds and 60mph, I'd be looking at motorcycle brakes.

With an appropriate rim, you could use a large rotor disc and a rim brake on the same wheel, applied by a dual cable lever. That would approximately double the available braking power and give you some valuable redundancy in case of the failure of one system.

Tektro offers some rotors that are about 30% thicker than normal, but still thin enough to work with unmodified bicycle disc calipers.

 

[dakh]

Rim brake on a moto rim? Are you serious? That's a serious question. Sounds bat shit crazy to me, and not in a cool way. But what do I know.

 

[voicecoils]

For 400 pounds and 60mph, I'd be looking at motorcycle brakes.

I agree. Even motorcycle brakes can struggle to cope with repeated acceleration/deceleration to 60 mph. It comes down to heat shedding capacity and if you ride in a way where you're building heat faster then it can be shed, you'll have a problem.

On tandem bicycles, several brands use a 10" (254mm) rotor in addition to front & rear rim brakes. Without the big rear disk on long descents with 350lb+ weight, tandems using rim brakes only can overheat the tires and blow them off the rim. Or if a front disk brake is used on a carbon tandem fork, the caliper can get so hot it melts the resin in the carbon fork causing the whole fork to fold while riding.

Regardless of the original purpose for the brakes you're considering, you need to pick ones that can meet your weight, deceleration & controlled descending requirements.

 

[fellow]

My expirience with 3 different systems:
1. Shimano Zee hydraulic disc brakes are good, but I'd recommend bigger disc diameter at the front than at the rear. My current setup is 180mm front and rear, and the brake feel is different on left vs right side. It's a bit annoying. Modulating is fantastic, and stopping power huge. They squeek a bit, and it is easy to burn skin on discs. I feel very safe using them. Zee brakes are very hard to lock, they act almost as an ABS. You really have to push hard to get that last 1% that locks the wheel.
2. Shimano V rim brakes (some 20 years old XT) are OTB capable, but they destroy rims. Almost as good raw stopping power as Zee, but worse modulation. Totally ok as a budget solution. Those brakes are silent and easy to lock.
3.Tektro 160mm wire disc brakes are complete joke, they squeek a lot and are plain dangerous. No stopping power whatsoever, no modulation. They have only one position (off). Disc pattern is very different from the zee disc brake design, that may be a reason of bad performance. I prefer to use my legs dragging me to stop than using those brakes. Those brakes can't lock the wheel.

 

[cheekybloke]

I have been using Hope brakes for years on all my bikes.
I found that the mono 6 was the best out of all the ones i tried.
Just given the Hope v2 DH brake a go and switched back to the mono 6 with a 225mm rotor as the 6 pots had a more progressive feel and more stopping power on the same bike with the same tyres etc.
The Shimano ones i tried were basically on or off with little inbetween.
Darren

 

[Chalo]

Rim brake on a moto rim? Are you serious? That's a serious question. Sounds bat shit crazy to me, and not in a cool way. But what do I know.

Not as much as Honda Motors, I guess. They thought it was good enough to take to the races.

 

[dakh]

Rim brake on a moto rim? Are you serious? That's a serious question. Sounds bat shit crazy to me, and not in a cool way. But what do I know.

Not as much as Honda Motors, I guess. They thought it was good enough to take to the races.

Dude! This is so awesome, thanks for those pictures! I don't think it quite applies to this situation since obviously current rims aren't designed for rim brakes but nevertheless, wow!

 

[Chalo]

Yeah, it surprised me too when I discovered it. At that time (early 1960s), motor racers were as stuck on all-leading-shoe drums as they are on hydraulic discs today.

 

[Punx0r]

Did they work? A DNF for every race entered would be a poor advocate

 

[voicecoils]

Yeah, it surprised me too when I discovered it. At that time (early 1960s), motor racers were as stuck on all-leading-shoe drums as they are on hydraulic discs today.

I think perimeter disks brakes are as close to rim brakes as you'll see on motorbikes again.

 

[dakh]

Yeah, it surprised me too when I discovered it. At that time (early 1960s), motor racers were as stuck on all-leading-shoe drums as they are on hydraulic discs today.

I think perimeter disks brakes are as close to rim brakes as you'll see on motorbikes again.

Those EBR brakes were Ok street setup but worthless for racing. Warped rotors, etc.

 

[Punx0r]

Shame, because the concept is kinda neat.

 

[Chalo]

I think rim mounted rotors could work fine, but they'd have to have a lot of float (for thermal expansion) and be mounted on a very rugged rim.

The sporty bike guys liked the idea because in theory you could get away with lighter spoking (since the spokes don't have to transmit torque), but in practice that makes the rim more susceptible to denting, which distorts the rotor.

 

[macribs]

That crazy dude and his Buell m/c's have been running those perimeter brakes for what now, 2 decades? But it still do not seems to go mainstream. Well neither is using the frame as fuel tank for that matter Those Buells where radical bikes back when.

 

[macribs]

I have been using Hope brakes for years on all my bikes.
I found that the mono 6 was the best out of all the ones i tried.
Just given the Hope v2 DH brake a go and switched back to the mono 6 with a 225mm rotor as the 6 pots had a more progressive feel and more stopping power on the same bike with the same tyres etc.
The Shimano ones i tried were basically on or off with little inbetween.
Darren

Must have overlooked you post or forgot about it completely.. Don't know what is worst? Lack of focus or fading mind

This is was what I've been waiting for, a post from someone that has used the Mono 6.
Great then Mono 6 it is.

 

[Lurkin]

When I was considering putting together a Flux frame, I concluded Shimano Zee were the cost effective choice. You have mentioned Shimano Saint - theres very little difference beyond a small amount of adjust ability. There are many downhill threads concluding there is little point in purchasing Saint brakes other than OCD and those who prefer to adjust without tools. Further, the pads between the two are interchangable and as also detailed, sintered are an option.

My understanding was that they were supplied with resin, non finned pads and the other options would have to be purchased after purchasing the brakes. Just something to keep in mind as it will be an additional cost to change.

It's also ideal to choose a brake that commonly available/often used as aftermarket pads/ likelihood of being able to continue to get brake pads as time passes increases.

I was planning to buy the set from CRC as they allow to pick and choose rotors etc to pick and mix the brake set.

I never got round to fully investigating the actual weight differential between pit bike brakes and Shimano Zee. I would be interested to find out if the difference is extreme or whether its different but not materially so.

Rim brakes... I never considered these as an option given that if the rim goes out of true, the brakes rub... Less of an issue with stronger set ups, but I wouldn't consider it an option for high power, off road use. Each to their own.

 

[Chalo]

Truing wheels turns out to be a lot easier than bleeding hydraulics, or truing warped rotors. Good wheels that are appropriate for the job don't go out of true much anyway.