Wish List to Bafang for BBS01/02

[speedmd]

Write it in chinese to show some respect and most likely they will respect the wish a bit more. :wink:

 

[Brentis]

Wish list item 13

83mm & or 100mm B.B. versions for d.h. and fatbike use.


Throw in a wider stator and 1000-1500w to suit wider B.B. :wink:
+1 to an on/off button, 3spd switch, throttle only.
Computer-less, Pas-less version for those looking for ultimate stealth or vintage look.

 

[--freeride--]

I got a 750W unit here in Germany.

I think you will have different users. There are people that don't pedal at all and want cruise control... for those the stock setup might be nice.

sample of the stock setup:

level1 crank rpm 40% curent 20% throttle 30%
level2 crank rpm 50% curent 30% throttle 60%
level3 crank rpm 60% curent 60% throttle 100%


Mayor drawbacks here in Europe are:
Most people here wan't to pedal and just like a little assist (a 250 or 350W unit is enough). For those the limit in the crank rpm does not make any sence. I want to have assist at the full range of crank rpm. Although at 90rpm or even 100rpm.

A good setup would be a lot of low power levels with an exponential raise of current like this:

level0 crank rpm 100% current 0% throttle 100%
level1 crank rpm 100% current 5% throttle 100%
level2 crank rpm 100% current 10% throttle 100%
level3 crank rpm 100% current 15% throttle 100%
level4 crank rpm 100% current 20% throttle 100%
level5 crank rpm 100% current 25% throttle 100%
level6 crank rpm 100% current 35% throttle 100%
level7 crank rpm 100% current 50% throttle 100%
level8 crank rpm 100% current 70% throttle 100%
level9 crank rpm 100% current 100% throttle 100%

Wishlist:

14. Software and a programming cable to configure the motor to our wishes or a setup like the one I mentioned.

15. In Europe we need an option to make the throttle only work when PASS is on, otherwise it is illegal to ride with a throttle. That means if you stop pedaling with throttle on the motor will cut off. You only get Power from the motor if you are under 6km/h (starting aid) or pedaling!

16. There is a soft start in the system, that makes the motor start up soft. That is ok, but the soft start causes a delay of 2seconds when I go full thottle and release throttle. That is much to long, the motor cut off needs to be immediatly without any delay!

Better use a smaller phase current limit, so the motor won't overheat and the transmission does not see huge peaks at the start.


Thats it for Software stuff, I really would like to have an Software interface to play around with parameters and an Euro leagal setup!
I only have one mechanical issue.

17. More magnets for the Pass sensor. Only two is not enough. A cut-off at Pedal stop under 0.25s would be very nice. Why not use 8 or even 12 magnets.



If you have any questions feel free to contact me. I would love to provide a good euro-setup!

 

[Grey beard]

I know this is early in the production cycle, and we can't expect a "one size fits all". The PAS is worthless to me, and many of my pears that could be converted to riding an electric bike. I'm 70 yrs old with a bad knee, and can't get it fixed since O-care took $750,000,000,000 out of my Medicare and we can't get knee surgery right now.
I will need a throttle only system, be it twist or lever, but 100% throttle as I can't really put much through the cranks.
If you've already got that, please excuse this post.

 

[greenspark]

does somebody from Bafang read this Thread?

I would like to get information about a connector or how to connect to change some parameters

I will be passing this on to my contact with Bafang (who speaks and reads English excellently). I would suggest you start a new thread with your connector or parameter questions. More users are learning about the bikes, and probably will give better answers than the factory.

 

[greenspark]

Write it in chinese to show some respect and most likely they will respect the wish a bit more. :wink:

谢谢，但谷歌翻译是说不好翻译在中国（或使我的中国贸易伙伴说）。除了八方代表讲流利的英语。

 

[greenspark]

I know this is early in the production cycle, and we can't expect a "one size fits all". The PAS is worthless to me, and many of my pears that could be converted to riding an electric bike. I'm 70 yrs old with a bad knee, and can't get it fixed since O-care took $750,000,000,000 out of my Medicare and we can't get knee surgery right now.
I will need a throttle only system, be it twist or lever, but 100% throttle as I can't really put much through the cranks.
If you've already got that, please excuse this post.

The PAS is built in, but you can buy the motors with Thumb Throttle (TT). However, the appeal of the design is that it assists pedalling, not making a bicycle into a moped. While the 750W may give sufficient boost going up a 15 degree hill to drive a bike like a moped, the point of PAS design is pedal assist, meaning you still have to apply power to the crank.

However, you may find that the up-hill cadence riding of a BBS01/02 relieves sufficient strain on your knee that you can ride it and in fact improve your knee. Riding up our 15d test hill in 3-power setting and TT fully depressed feels the same to us as riding a no-power bike on the flat. Your exercise comes from cadence rather than muscle strain, and from the fact that the typical ebike rider is said to ride 1,200 miles a year, much further than the typical no-power-assist bicycle rider.

Using TT, the only advantage of the BBS01/02 over a hub motor is that it does drive gears. Perhaps if you have sufficiently low gears (bigger rear sprocket) you could use it to drive up a hill without pedalling, but otherwise, just buy a rear hub Mac 500 50V from Cell_man http://em3ev.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=36&product_id=55 and from your local bike store buy some seriously strong brakes to handle the speed (we were getting 53kph/33 mph on the flat).

For the record, the motor is not "one size fits all", as already it is two sizes in physical design and four in software settings.

• 250W Size Small Eurospec
• 350W Size Small (meaning the wiring is less beefy than the size large, for 36V)
• 500W Size Large (48V)
• 750W Size Large

When we ordered 30 motors, they changed the software settings so we got 300W (max allowed for NZ law) Size small with 20 having TT, and 2 with no TT, plus 1 with TT and the newer C695 display. We also got two 750W for our Chinese agent and five 350W for a customer of his, so over all we ordered five variations in size.

I'm not sure what you are recommending as part of a wish list for Bafang, since it already provides TT and it is what it is, a PAS design with TT.

 

[greenspark]

Wishlist:

14. Software and a programming cable to configure the motor to our wishes or a setup like the one I mentioned.

15. In Europe we need an option to make the throttle only work when PASS is on, otherwise it is illegal to ride with a throttle. That means if you stop pedaling with throttle on the motor will cut off. You only get Power from the motor if you are under 6km/h (starting aid) or pedaling!

16. There is a soft start in the system, that makes the motor start up soft. That is ok, but the soft start causes a delay of 2seconds when I go full throttle and release throttle. That is much to long, the motor cut off needs to be immediatly without any delay!

Better use a smaller phase current limit, so the motor won't overheat and the transmission does not see huge peaks at the start.

Thats it for Software stuff, I really would like to have an Software interface to play around with parameters and an Euro legal setup!
I only have one mechanical issue.

17. More magnets for the Pass sensor. Only two is not enough. A cut-off at Pedal stop under 0.25s would be very nice. Why not use 8 or even 12 magnets.

If you have any questions feel free to contact me. I would love to provide a good euro-setup!

Thanks for an excellent post.

Regarding No 15. Our 300W come this way already. It may be that by ordering the 750W, you received the US version which lacks that restriction.

Some of your suggestions relate to programming. It appears this can be done by entering a particular code and making the changes using the display. What is missing is the code to enter, and what the variables mean. Apparently our forum member in America who sells the motors has the code and reprograms the profile to fit his customers' needs, but shipping costs make his product less attractive for Europe or down under. Cell_Man may start offering this service, best to connect with him directly. The problem we encounter with Bafang is their reluctance to put a factory stamp on custom profiles of the controller that could result in warranty claims or a bad reputation due to users pushing the motor beyond the conservative limits set by the factory. It's a difficult balance, and we expect that they will slowly move based on feedback and real field experience... like this thread.

 

[greenspark]

Would someone be so kind as to read through all the posts, and make a summary of the relevant ones for Bafang. I think we are getting close to the point where I would like to pass it on to them. I would do it, but I'm getting ready for a major push in my day job, and am having trouble finding the time. Thanks GS

 

[--freeride--]

Here is my summery, you are wellcome to make objections:

Software what can be done now!

General software:

Remove all limits of the crank RPMs I want to have assist at the full range of crank rpm. Although at 90rpm or even 100rpm.
A good setup for everyone in the world would be a lot of low power levels with an exponential raise of current like this (thats what the new sine wave controllers allready do and rides very nice!):

level0 crank rpm 100% current 0% throttle 100%
level1 crank rpm 100% current 5% throttle 100%
level2 crank rpm 100% current 10% throttle 100%
level3 crank rpm 100% current 15% throttle 100%
level4 crank rpm 100% current 20% throttle 100%
level5 crank rpm 100% current 25% throttle 100%
level6 crank rpm 100% current 35% throttle 100%
level7 crank rpm 100% current 50% throttle 100%
level8 crank rpm 100% current 70% throttle 100%
level9 crank rpm 100% current 100% throttle 100%

Software and a programming cable to configure the motor OR entering a particular code and making the changes using the display.
Limit the settings so that you can not harm the system and you won't have any warranty problems.

There is a soft start in the system, that is ok, but the softstart causes a delay of 2seconds, when I go full thottle and release throttle. That is much to long and dangerous as the motor pushes on hard under released throttle. The motor needs to cut off in 0.25s MAX without any delay! MORE PASS MAGNETS

Better use a smaller phase current limit, so the motor won't overheat and the transmission does not see huge peaks at the start so you wont need the soft start under throttle use.



Thumb throttle

- There need to be more options that can be set up by the user:
- Decouple the Thumb Throttle from the PAS (pedelec), so it provides full power regardless of the PAS setting, including being set on zero
- In Europe we need an option to make the throttle only work when PASS is on, otherwise it is illegal to ride with a throttle. That means if you stop pedaling with throttle on the motor will cut off. You only get Power from the motor if you pedaling
- Or you are under 6km/h (starting aid, complies with electric wheelchair regulations.)
- throttle that operates over the full range of motion

- Another solution could be a pushbutton instead of a thottle, maybe that would be easily doable, so that you chose what you want.


Display

- Removable speedlimiter, but in a proper way, not by cheating with wheeldiameters or miles vs kilometers, because this messes up the lcd readings.
- A 1-2-3 switch display option. or a smaller display
- Watts and W/hr's displayed on screen so that accurate assessment of power consumption

Hardware:

More magnets for the Pass sensor. Only two is not enough. A cut-off at Pedal stop under 0.25s would be very nice. Why not use 8 or even 12 magnets.
Currently 46 and 48 tooth is offered(Much to big for Europe!), 42T is possible right now, so this should be available! mine does 30mph on 42Tfront/13T rear!

Please include with the kit a hydraulic brake cut off option, a simple tee pressure switch that can be fitted in a standard brake line would be perfect.
NOT NEEDED if the motor cut off when PASS or throttle released is quick enough (0.25s MAX)



Ideas for the future MY thoughts:

83mm & or 100mm B.B. versions for d.h. and fatbike use.


Gear cable movement sensor to cut power to the motor when shifing gears.
That will be hard to provide, maybe that cut be done with a better PASS to, you pedal slow when u are shifting and the mottor cuts of under slow pedaling.

external torque sensor or have a built in one
I think there is the BBT modell comming so that does not make sence to discuss that here


cruisecontrol: in fact this is very similar to wishlist 3
Have the possibillity to set a certain speed, kill it by braking and set it again by pushing one button.
Thats what we had for years now and I don't like it at all, no speed control, current control is what is state of the art! Ride it!

 

[lazy_mosquito]

hi Freeride
i think that sums it up, maybe one item to add. Make the display detachable maybe even as kind of ignition key. In that way they can't vandalise or steal the display.

I am wondering how to explain how i would like to drive the e-bike but i think this explains it:
I would like to have a steady ideal crank speed (70-90 rpm) (the engine is now running at ideal speed)
The speed of the bike would be changed by changing gear
The % of assistance is arranged by the PAS-level and not by the rpm of the cranks.
the throttle would override the PAS.

 

[swiss]

Wishlist #11 More gears on front chain ring.

Currently 46 and 48 tooth is offered. Originally the specs called for a wider range, starting at 36 teeth. This is probably due to the "bump" that hides the internal gear or chain that connects the motor and the bottom bracket. The most desirable would be to allow the bikes current chainring and crank to be used, which would mean no changing of chain length, and retaining the original look. This would require re-engineering and probably would not come until a second release of the motor.

For sure this is the most important wish for anyone that wants to put a BBS01/02 on a real montainbike and not just a city used one!
I have 2 years of experience on a Ego-Kit, of which the big disadvantage is the fact of being too loud. I have learned, that on a middrive it is essential to always keep the cadence of pedalling high enough, otherwise your electric consumption rises very quickly resulting in cutting your autonomy radically down. In the mountains the goal is not to go as fast as possible, but rather as high and probably far as possible. With a 46 or even just 36 front chainring you are lost, even in a 1x11 gear. You definitly need 2 front chainrings to keep your middrive efficient on a mtb. 36/24 as an example is ideal. Or even better as greenspark says allowing the original chainrings of the bike.

Mountainbiking is getting incredibly popular all over and a mid-drive on a mtb is sooo much fun. As bafang currently seems to offer the best one available, it would be a big deal for them to bring a new release allowing 2 smaller front chainrings and a bigger distance in between the BB and the motor to allow carbon frames and downhill bikes too. Such a product would be a dream, as it is silent and stealthy (impotant on single trails), would offer a big range with a reasonably sized battery and would be so easy to mount and even demount from time to time, if you feel like biking with your friends from time to time without motor.

Should my help for testing or further advice be helpful, pls. just tell Bafang or Cellman to contact me. Cellman knows me from years ago, when he made me a special big battery for my velomobil as per my picture, which by the way still works like new.

 

[joshseitz]

Or even better as greenspark says allowing the original chainrings of the bike.

It seems like this could be accomplished if Bafang chose to drive the LEFT side of the bottom bracket, leaving the right side with a standard square taper (or better yet splined) BB shaft on which you could mount a standard single, double, or triple crank.

 

[swiss]

Or even better as greenspark says allowing the original chainrings of the bike.

It seems like this could be accomplished if Bafang chose to drive the LEFT side of the bottom bracket, leaving the right side with a standard square taper (or better yet splined) BB shaft on which you could mount a standard single, double, or triple crank.

Joshseitz, great idea to drive the LEFT side! What do other technical experts think about this idea? Is this makeable without bigger problems? Using the original chain and chainrings and the fact of an unchanged chainline would be perfect and make the mounting of the middrive once more much easier.

Those of you being in contact with Bafang/8-Fun, pls. ask them what they think about this. I am aware that customers got the tendency to ask for dreams of which realization costs a lot and brings not much. This case is different. This would really improve the product in general and also open the huge market of mountain-biking for Bafang.

Btw I have just seen in the "New Bafang Crank-drives" thread , that our member Kepler, who has my biggest respect, thinks that the original single front-chainring is good enough to climb steepest hills. This might be the case on steep streets, but not on rough steep singletrails, which you can't (or should not...) climb with the speed of a motocross-bike.

 

[flyingcubic]

gear to left side will cost much more

but i think this will work with tripple chainwheel
for me its not an issue, im driving gear hubs

one thing what they have to do is LVC to set by user 30-34V (for 36Vunit)

 

[--freeride--]

Or even better as greenspark says allowing the original chainrings of the bike.

It seems like this could be accomplished if Bafang chose to drive the LEFT side of the bottom bracket, leaving the right side with a standard square taper (or better yet splined) BB shaft on which you could mount a standard single, double, or triple crank.

Joshseitz, great idea to drive the LEFT side! What do other technical experts think about this idea? Is this makeable without bigger problems? Using the original chain and chainrings and the fact of an unchanged chainline would be perfect and make the mounting of the middrive once more much easier.

Those of you being in contact with Bafang/8-Fun, pls. ask them what they think about this. I am aware that customers got the tendency to ask for dreams of which realization costs a lot and brings not much. This case is different. This would really improve the product in general and also open the huge market of mountain-biking for Bafang.

Btw I have just seen in the "New Bafang Crank-drives" thread , that our member Kepler, who has my biggest respect, thinks that the original single front-chainring is good enough to climb steepest hills. This might be the case on steep streets, but not on rough steep singletrails, which you can't (or should not...) climb with the speed of a motocross-bike.

I did a real offroad testride yesterday super technical with a lot of steep climbs where no one is able to drive up with a normal bike.
I am running a 42T up front and a 13-42 in the rear. The 750W unit is strong enough to push you up everything you want with front 42T/ rear 34T.

With 42T/42T you are low enough to to technical riding up to vertical... I had to back of the throttle because the front is lifting all the time. The dead band of the throttle delay makes it hard to control the bike. That is my major breakdown at the moment

There won't be an option to add another Chainwheel up front, and it is not needed. I am able to go 30 mph with my setup or even faster.

I will go down to 38T up front, 38T in the front and to 42T in the rear is more reduction than you need.

Driving the left side won't work. look at your frames, there is always more space for the chainwheels on the ride side. that is exakly where the BBS02 is sitting. On the left side there is not enough space to fit the transmission.


@ swiss: The EGO kit has not enough reduction for pedaling use. You are having 200prm on the crank with no load... Thats why you have problems wenn you are running it at low pedaling speed.
The Bafang has only 140rpm with no load on the crank. So it will be much better.

 

[--freeride--]

hi Freeride
i think that sums it up, maybe one item to add. Make the display detachable maybe even as kind of ignition key. In that way they can't vandalise or steal the display.

I am wondering how to explain how i would like to drive the e-bike but i think this explains it:
I would like to have a steady ideal crank speed (70-90 rpm) (the engine is now running at ideal speed)
The speed of the bike would be changed by changing gear
The % of assistance is arranged by the PAS-level and not by the rpm of the cranks.
the throttle would override the PAS.

What you try to explain is the exakt setup I want and what I wrote above. The assistance is the current, you choose that and the motor should assist up to 90rpm an not cut of at 50rpm. I know how the parameters are so that is why I wrote it this way:

level0 crank rpm 100% current 0% throttle 100%
level1 crank rpm 100% current 5% throttle 100%
level2 crank rpm 100% current 10% throttle 100%
level3 crank rpm 100% current 15% throttle 100%
level4 crank rpm 100% current 20% throttle 100%
level5 crank rpm 100% current 25% throttle 100%
level6 crank rpm 100% current 35% throttle 100%
level7 crank rpm 100% current 50% throttle 100%
level8 crank rpm 100% current 70% throttle 100%
level9 crank rpm 100% current 100% throttle 100%

So bafang could just copy it to there Setup

I would love to have a smaller display. But thats hardware, I don't think they will change that imediatly. All the software stuff can be done right now with nearlly no cost.

 

[greenspark]

Hi Everyone who made comments.

I'm on countdown to a 2-month overseas trip, so I just wrote Bafang to advise them of the existence of this thread, which I have to say is one of the better ones. Thanks to everyone for sticking to topic and offering some really helpful suggestions. Don't quit now, keep them coming.

Freeride: the C695 display is a bit smaller (vertical) and has a lot more information on it. You may want to check it out.

 

[Kepler]

Btw I have just seen in the "New Bafang Crank-drives" thread , that our member Kepler, who has my biggest respect, thinks that the original single front-chainring is good enough to climb steepest hills. This might be the case on steep streets, but not on rough steep singletrails, which you can't (or should not...) climb with the speed of a motocross-bike.

Firstly thank you for the complement. With regards to the above, I agree there would some super steep technical single trail that won't work with the 48 tooth however most trails that sane people will attempt are rideable with the 48 tooth. Freeride I am tipping is a better rider then the average Ebike rider and is looking for ultimate performance and as such I can understand why he has gone for the gear selection he is using. I am a reasonable rider but being in my 50's, common sense now overtakes bravery so I don't go too crazy with the single track I ride. That being said, on my last ride with friends, I got up everything we attempted while others needed to drag their bikes up. No disrespect to my riding buddies who ride well, just setting a picture.

I mostly use setting 5 out of 9 and gear down to a 32 tooth. Under load, the bike travels at about 5 kph up steep technical stuff which might be a little quick but you need excellent balance to ride much slower then that.

This brings me to another item. I don't agree with 100% throttle override on all PAS settings. IMO, it is just too brutal with the Bafang's touchy throttle. I prefer to keep the assist low, pedal hard, and mash the throttle when needed. 100% throttle would be a nightmare when climbing with a 32 or 34 tooth and the 1150 Watts that this drive pumps out. IMO I think the Bafang engineers have it right with the way they have setup the throttle. I seem to be in a minority with this view though

 

[greenspark]

I don't agree with 100% throttle override on all PAS settings. IMO, it is just too brutal with the Bafang's touchy throttle. I prefer to keep the assist low, pedal hard, and mash the throttle when needed. 100% throttle would be a nightmare when climbing with a 32 or 34 tooth and the 1150 Watts that this drive pumps out. IMO I think the Bafang engineers have it right with the way they have setup the throttle. I seem to be in a minority with this view though

Just a qualifier here.

There is a big difference between the 750W and the small 350W. The 100% throttle is important riding up a paved 15 degree hill and in the early versions of the 750W we are hearing it may need a bit of smoothing in the controller settings. We have no direct experience with the 750W (illegal in NZ), but the 350W is set about right.

 

[--freeride--]

Btw I have just seen in the "New Bafang Crank-drives" thread , that our member Kepler, who has my biggest respect, thinks that the original single front-chainring is good enough to climb steepest hills. This might be the case on steep streets, but not on rough steep singletrails, which you can't (or should not...) climb with the speed of a motocross-bike.

Firstly thank you for the complement. With regards to the above, I agree there would some super steep technical single trail that won't work with the 48 tooth however most trails that sane people will attempt are rideable with the 48 tooth. Freeride I am tipping is a better rider then the average Ebike rider and is looking for ultimate performance and as such I can understand why he has gone for the gear selection he is using. I am a reasonable rider but being in my 50's, common sense now overtakes bravery so I don't go too crazy with the single track I ride. That being said, on my last ride with friends, I got up everything we attempted while others needed to drag their bikes up. No disrespect to my riding buddies who ride well, just setting a picture.

I mostly use setting 5 out of 9 and gear down to a 32 tooth. Under load, the bike travels at about 5 kph up steep technical stuff which might be a little quick but you need excellent balance to ride much slower then that.

This brings me to another item. I don't agree with 100% throttle override on all PAS settings. IMO, it is just too brutal with the Bafang's touchy throttle. I prefer to keep the assist low, pedal hard, and mash the throttle when needed. 100% throttle would be a nightmare when climbing with a 32 or 34 tooth and the 1150 Watts that this drive pumps out. IMO I think the Bafang engineers have it right with the way they have setup the throttle. I seem to be in a minority with this view though

I absolutely agree with you, the throttle is horrible with the delay and the abrupt rise of power after the delay. A progressiv throttle profile (I use that for RC-Crawlers) with no delay and the use of the full range of the throttle would solve that problem easily.

You could use the throttle at 100% without any problems in all levels than.

After my ride yesterday, I think I will switch the internal Controller vor an
external with an microcontroller board where I can programm everything I want...

 

[lazy_mosquito]

This brings me to another item. I don't agree with 100% throttle override on all PAS settings. IMO, it is just too brutal with the Bafang's touchy throttle. I prefer to keep the assist low, pedal hard, and mash the throttle when needed. 100% throttle would be a nightmare when climbing with a 32 or 34 tooth and the 1150 Watts that this drive pumps out. IMO I think the Bafang engineers have it right with the way they have setup the throttle. I seem to be in a minority with this view though

I think the problem is here the way the throttle works, and not the fact 100% is too much. If the throttle would have a better response and a smoother way of controlling it, it would be perfectly possible to give 50% or 100% depending on your needs. Now it works more binair, 0 or 1, all or nothing, and i think that is the real problem, not the max amount of current.

 

[Kepler]

totally agree. I would be happy with a linear throttle that provided 100% on all PAS settings.

 

[speedmd]

+2 on the better throttle response. It would make this kit the berries!

greenspark, I hope your boning up on the chinese, it will mean very much to them if you at least try when presenting this. Just a few words spoken in their tongue will get you in the door in most situations.

 

[teslanv]

A built in cadence sensor on the display would be a nice feature which would also aid novice riders in correct gear selection. An up/down arrow, rpm number or both would be perfect.

+1 here.
BBS02 owner.